MTFCA Forum

I bought a rim to use in building a new rear wheel and came across this stamping. I know what the 30 x 3 1/2 means but does the other tell anything about it's origins?

Tim,

Looking at the letters: PAT’D 9-27-21-F-S-P-CO and the last letter may or may not be an "O." I would suspect that the company patented that style on 9-27-1921. Company Name would have three words -- one starting with F, the next with S and the next with P.

From the photo the lower side looks like a clincher, but the side at the top of the photo reminds me of the 1928-1929 all steel spoked Model A Ford rims that had a rolled / rounded edge. Is that just an optical illusion and the rim is a standard 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher rim?

Also is it a demountable? And if so, are the lugs attached? Some rim makers put a mark on the lugs.

And does it fit a Model T wheel?

Below is a listing of companies that produced some of the rims back in the day. It is from page 603 of Dykes Automobile Encyclopedia, 18th Edition. But I didn't see one that would have used F-S-P. If you click on the photo you can zoom in and read it easily. The listing of companies is at the top.
Hopefully someone who knows more about it will let us know what it really means.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Hap, I think the photo shows a steel felloe rather than a rim. It shows a turned in outer edge and a wider turned out inner edge.
I can't help with the lettering, other than to say it's not a Kelsey felloe.

Allan from own under.

Firestone Steel Products?

Sorry....should have provided more info.

The item in question is a steel felloe for 30 x 3.5 inch demountable rim. It is designed to accept fixed-lug rims, with notches by the mounting holes.Yes, it does fit a Ford Clincher Rim.

Here is a photo before the spokes and hub were removed and the felloe bead-blasted. "Firestone Steel Products" is a possibility but the profile of the felloe doesn't quite match the patent application.

F-S flanged side?

It’s stamped on the outside of the felloe next to a spoke hole (if that’s what you’re asking)

Summary: I’m 99% sure you have a wheel/felloe that was manufactured by Firestone on or after Mar 1924 for use in the Ford USA assembly plants and as a replacement part for dealers.

Additional Details:

John – thank you so much for finding and posting that Patent information. From the second page it has:
That it is a patent for a demountable felloe and rim and that it was Patented Sept 27, 1921 i.e. 9-27-21 which is the same date stamped into the metal felloe indicate it might be the same felloe and rim. If the Patent date was different then it probably would not have been the patent for that wheel/felloe/rim. Initially I saw the Jan 25, 1919 date and thought – well this patent is not for that felloe/wheel. But then I zoomed in and read that was the date the Patent was applied for NOT when it was Patented.

Looking at the illustrations in the Patent, it is close but NOT a perfect match for the felloe you show in the photo you posted. But on page 2 of the Patent it has:
And that indicates to me that they could make minor changes and still keep their patent.
And the Patent states ASSIGNOR TO THE FIRESTONE STEEL PRODUCTS (see below)
And note that the word “COMPANY” is on the next line. That lines up with the F-S-P-CO very well.

Looking at the information from Bruce’s Encyclopedia at: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels we see that Firestone supplied demountable wheels and parts for the USA Ford Assembly lines as well as for replacement parts. (So did Hayes, Kelsey, Cleveland, Motor Wheel and possibly others.)

But from the photo you posted your felloe does NOT have the cup around the valve stem for the lug on the rim with the removable lugs so your felloe is NOT for use with the removable lug rims manufactured by Firestone and Cleveland (and different from the Kelsey lose lug).

And from that same reference it has:
In a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924, the following appeared:
Wheels and Rims

“The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the “attached lug” type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.

All that adds up to a very high probability that you have a Firestone produced felloe (wheel). It may have been manufactured in agreement with the March 7, 1924 letter to Branches shown above. If so it would have likely been produced in March 1924 or later either as original equipment or as a maintenance replacement.

But if the felloe has a "cup" around the valve stem hole as shown in the photo below, then it could have been one of the earlier Ford supplied wheels that were made by both Firestone as well as Cleveland. Those used a rim that had a lug around the valve stem that would fit into the "cup" that was around the valve stem hole on the felloe. Below is a photo of the cup around the valve stem. Does your felloe have that style or similar "cup" around the valve stem on the felloe?
Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Hap - great info, I think you nailed it. Thanks! My wheel is like the top one in your photo, with the cup. The attached photo shows what the valve stem hole looks like from the outside.

None of my rims have a lug that would fit into the cup but I suspect they'll still work fine. Someone once told me that the cups and lugs were a feature in felloes and rims that utilized loose lug rims to help center the valve stems.

I can always count on you guys for the info I need. I wonder sometimes how I got along before the internet.....research was a lot more challenging in the old days.

Tim,

You are welcome and thanks to all of you for giving us the clues needed to track this down.

I'm 80% sure that your photo shows your fellow has the cut outs on the outside of the felloes at each of the four mounting bolts. That should allow the Hayes rim with the fixed lugs that have a foot on the lug, to press he rim firmly against the inner flange of the felloe. If there is not a cut out or lower part on the felloe, then the Hayes lug foot can bind on the outer rim of the felloe. If that happens then instead of the rim mating firmly against the inner flange of the felloe the four feet of the Hayes rim are supporting the weight of the car. Not a good or safe situation.

When the rim seats properly on the inner flange of the felloe the foot on the lug is not really doing much to support the weight of the car. Instead they are holding the rim firmly against the inside flange of the felloe. They also keep the rim from spinning in the wheel (normally only an issue for the rear wheels since the front wheels do not have brakes and are not driven by the engine.

If the above is confusing -- please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/39258.html it has photos to better explain what I'm trying to say.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Tim, the cup and the lug are there to stop the rim being turned/spun on the felloe on loose lug rims. Kelsey achieved the same thing by using a bridging lug on the rim which straddled the wheel bolt nearest the valve stem hole.

Hap, I agree with your conclusion that the Hayes fixed lug rims need clearance on the outer edge of the felloe for the foot on the lug, to enable the rim to be wedged against the inner felloe ledge. The rims do not contact the outer edge. I believe the same applies to other fixed lug rims/felloe combinations. The rims are wedged against the inner felloe ledge and stand clear of the outer edge, even on those felloes with a narrow rolled in ledge. This contact does happen on many rim/felloe combinations, but I believe this only happens with worn rim/felloe combinations where the inner wedge effect has been compromised by years of hard use.

The reverse is the case with Kelsey loose lug rims/felloes. These bind on the outer rolled edge of the felloe and stand clear of the inner edge. On these felloes, that inner edge is narrower than the same on fixed lug felloes.

If I can ever find a way to post photos with mu new phone, I can illustrate this.

Allan from down under.

Fellows - the wheel in question has the cutouts to accommodate Hayes rims. If I were home I'd take a picture - as it is, I think I will photo-document the wheel now that (thanks to you) I know it's history.

When I bought my car no two wheels were the same. I've been trying to remedy that problem so that at least the fronts and rears match. Meanwhile, the opportunity to educate myself about 100 year old wheel technology has been fun and rewarding....thanks!