Will the original design of the Model T survive by the end of the 21st century?

[Been Here Before]

I have been on an off the MTFCA site over the years. The owner of a 1922 Ford Coupe (over 40 years), as built except for the water pump and period brake light. I set coils by ear and buzz box. Car as built will travel 30 mph on modern roads.

I have followed comments and questions over the years. See new owners, death of old owners and...changes to the as built car.

Those coming in are up dating the car, disk brakes, electric fuel pumps, modern engine up grades, seat belts, safety glass, air conditioning, over drive, high compression engine rebuilds, timers with microchips, and the need for more speed and power. Changes that are taking a vintage design to make it more like a 20/21 century automobile.

Now some changes make sense, safety glass and stop lights and turn signals, but the others?

So will the future Model T owner still be able to have an as built Model T on the road in the next century? Or will it be a total up grade?

[Norman Kling]

I have no idea and don't think I will be here by the end of the 21st century. However, it may no longer be legal nor economical to drive on the road anymore, I think there will still be a few left in museums and private collections. Of course, all depends on the generation living at that time. I have a few pieces of furniture in my possession which have been handed down in the family for generations since the colonial days. Each generation of the family has some people who are not the least bit interested and others who treasure them. I think it depends upon how close the generations of the family are because of memories of "Grandma's"house, or "Grandpa's" car or the cars our parents had over the years. As the generations who used these vehicles as daily drivers pass, it will be children and grandchildren of the collectors and club members who used them for tours and took along their children who still keep them.
Because gasoline fuel will probably be phased out by the end of the century, it will become much more expensive to use the cars for transportation. So some will remain as museum pieces.
Norm

[Steve Jelf]

I don't expect all Model T's to be "upgraded" beyond recognition, but the availability and cost of fuel is likely to become a problem. Electric car technology will continue to develop rapidly. Electrics will eventually dominate the market and the need for gas and oil will diminish. We may be surprised at how quickly that happens.

[JohnM]

There are some people who still have horses.

[Rich Eagle]

It's always fun to ponder these things. I think there will always be some radicals who insist on things being exactly as they were. A fellow car nut in the 70s worried a lot about the cars being outlawed and fuel not available. He passed without realizing his fears.
I'm content to just wear my cars out and not worry to much about what might be.
Rich

[Rich Bingham]

There are some people who still have horses.

True dat. According to the University of Minnesota Extension Service, the annual contribution of the horse industry to the U.S. economy is around $100 billion. It provides 1.7 million jobs, and just over 30% of U.S. households contain at least one "horse enthusiast".

[Rich Bingham]

. . . I think there will always be some radicals who insist on things being exactly as they were . . .

Pick me.

I'm fortunate to live where all the multiple deficiencies of the Model T which have made it an obsolete impediment to "normal" traffic since 1928 do not demand that my Lizzie run with the herd. Yet. Personally, my enjoyment has always derived from pursuing authenticity (however evasive that may be) so that my T experience might be near as possible to what drivers in days gone by had.

Thing is, our Model T community is not, and never was, suspended in time; the pressures of material and parts availability, differences in the driving environment and personal preferences result in most owners' tending to modify the beast in order to make it more enjoyable. Many creative types find the T a perfect outlet for their inventiveness. More power to them (literally !!). When it's no fun anymore, or too restricted, or too expensive, it will be time to quit. Until such time, "Viva Model T" !! In all her owner-induced iterations. It's an organic process, and she's alive.

[Colin Mavins]

I don't know what will happen the my T, my son is learning but I will admit He likes the Barracuda's more . I am happy to drive my T as is . I do expect it to drive like my 1962 Impala it does drive perfectly as a 1912 model T. I had a car club member ask me how to make his T go faster , may answer was buy a Corvette. I find a big part of the charm of a T is the Drive . In the T you get to see much more and driving the less driven roads is great. As long as I can ,and I hope that will be 20 years I will drive my T like a T putting along at 25-35 mph enjoying the ride. Cheers From Winnipeg

[Art M]

We are fortunate that we can repair our model t's as we wear them out while driving them. The aftermarket system has been very supportive. This includes vendors.
Where this hobby goes depends on replacement parts.
I try to keep my car as original as I can. I even use a mechanical cutout. The only trouble I ever had was when I dropped it on the ground. I readjusted it and it has been working since.
I have thought about rigging a fuel injection system to a model t engine. This would make them even more powerful, reliable, easier to start, and more driver friendly which seems to be what the many people want.

[Susanne]

I was out in the shop contemplating this the other day... I can't see how a gasoline engine will still be allowed into the 22nd century. Maybe with the rare exception, such as an official vehicle from NYC or LA or etc... but likely not in private ownership. So what was the answer, short of making a trailer queen / museum rock that never runs again?

Starrted looking at the architecture and constraints of the T motor with its built in transmission. And then it came to me - keep the prop shaft, but replace everything forward of it with an electrical motor. Gut the block, drop the motor in the transmission hogshead using the 3rd and 4th main as your support for it, use the hogged out space in the block (which you've butchered) for your electrical control devices, battery cooling pump drives, etc. You'd also need to re-engineer the suspension to take the weight of the battery system you'd have to install - a tesla wall under the floorboards, or in the back seat of a touring.

Could it be done? Sure. Would it be pretty? Maybe, or maybe not, but I cound at least envision it. Would it break my heart? Without a doubt absolutely. But would it be better to condemn a car to eternity as a museum rock, or to be able to get it out and drive it? What do you think???

What a sad think to have to consider in this current age.

[Rich Bingham]

FLUBBER.

Go Flubber !!

[Erik Barrett]

The design is timeless. What will not last is the availability of gasoline at affordable prices.

[James_Lyons-WV]

There will always be grain alcohol...

[TRDxB2]

...Started looking at the architecture and constraints of the T motor with its built in transmission. And then it came to me - keep the prop shaft, but replace everything forward of it with an electrical motor. ..
Could it be done? Sure. Would it be pretty? Maybe, or maybe not, but I cou ld at least envision it. ...

Its been done several ways
Way back when https://www.wired.com/2010/06/henry-for ... edison-ev/

Recently
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/from-t-to-ev

Electric TT https://electricss.com/qa-converted-model-t/

[Rich Eagle]

Hopefully this Forum, it's photos and stories, will survive in some form for years into the future. It will provide a guide into what was in it's various ways for guidance, entertainment or historic refence to those who may follow.
I've watched the hobby evolve for half a century. Some things change while others remain the same.
Rich

[CudaMan]

Another aspect is how an individual car can seesaw between more and less period correct over a succession of owners.

When I got my 1924, it had a bunch of Phillips screws and nylon locking nuts on it, which did the job but weren't "correct". I replaced them all as best I could with the correct hardware. Now I'm in the process of slowly switching my tubes over to Schrader 777 stems and hardware.

If I ever have to pull the engine, I have all of the parts to replace the oil slingers and Truefire ignition with the correct magneto and coil setup. I also have a stock generator to replace the 6V alternator that the car has now. I could do it now, but the alternator works so well....

The back end of my car was cut off long before I got it to make it a pickup. I do have a nice touring body in the basement to convert it back into a touring car some day if I get the urge.

The next owner or owners may knowingly or unknowingly undo these changes. I have no control over what happens to my car after I or my estate sells it, so I choose not to worry about it.

[John Codman]

Yes. Since I need ten characters, yes again.

[JohnM]

I don't think petroleum fuel will completely go away to soon. You can't charge batteries as quick as you can fill a tank, and there are lots of places people go on earth where there is no place to plug in.

[BuddyTheRoadster]

I have worried about this for a while, as I just hit 40 and intend to drive vintage cars until I'm too old to drive. As to the question of driving "mostly stock" Ts, I think they'll be around for at least a generation or two. Part of the beauty of the T is that it is so "primitive," it has a lot of margin for error before it stops working. It's not like a muscle car that will ping unless it's running on 91 octane gasoline.

Now for a few comparisons with other (very) obsolete technology: the infrastructure survives to do wet plate photography, and I know of one company pouring dry plates that are just like 1890s glass plates. You can get camera film still--although color slide film is critically endangered. Steam cars and steam locomotives are still operable. Most of the components for tube radios are findable. They have even found a compatible refrigerant for sulfur dioxide refrigerators. A lot of this "dead technology" is sustainable, but you have to be creative and flexible enough to create a solution when something is not obtainable at all. (And in T stuff, look at how we now have SCAT crankshafts and new transmission drums.) That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if I might have to start buying gasoline by the gallon in a hardware store or special ordering it from a chemical house. Hopefully that will be many years down the road.

Now for the original design of the Model T, I guess the first question is, "Define original?" If you mean stock bores, cast iron pistons, and all Ford script Hyatt bearings, then probably not. If you're willing to go with mostly stock but aluminum pistons, newer clutches, a high compression head, and external rear brakes, then probably a good number of them will keep going. That's just my opinion though.

[Loftfield]

Some of my T friends have all the "updates". Somehow, they also have all breakdowns. I think that many "updates" stress the original specs (plus added years and metal fatigue). The only modern update on my cars is safety glass in the windshields (no side windows in my open cars), and kevlar bands. I like the ease of kevlar, but do worry that it damages the drums over time, so effort is made to use the pedals carefully allowing time for oil to get back under the bands...as should be done for Scandinavia bands anyway. So far I am still able to crank the T by hand. I use hand signals even though most younger folks think I am pointing at something off to the side. The compromise is that I tend to avoid busy roads whenever possible, don't try to keep up with modern cars, and assume a very active role in looking out for myself, never assuming anybody else on the road is looking out for me or understands the limitations of my vehicles. So far no worries. By the end of the century, if we actually get there, it will not be possible to drive the T on any road outside your immediate neighbourhood. All cars will be self-driven and if T is to remain T it won't have the electronics to do that. All cars will be electric, hydrogen, or some wonderful technology not yet developed, with the result that gasoline will be scarce, if available at all. When I was just a young dinosaur, kerosene was much cheaper than gasoline. Today the reverse is true, and it can be difficult to find, simply because demand for kerosene outside the Amish community has dropped to near zero. The same fate awaits gasoline. Enjoy your T now!

[Burger in Spokane]

Building on what Mr. Loftfield wrote, I am neverendingly amazed by people who
live lives they dislike, never thinking to change them and live the life they want.
I purposely chased down and bought my T to drive backroads. I purposely LEFT
where I spent the first 37 years of my life to escape the freeways and sprawl, to
a place where driving a T in its natural environment does not require a trailer. I
cannot count how many times I have read on this forum, where people who live
for their T, say they cannot drive them outside their neighborhood for fear of being
run over. Walk that out ! They CHOOSE to make their passion obsolete by living
in a place they cannot enjoy their passion, but yet don't make the connection that
they are making a choice. Are they waiting for their next life to really make the
commitment ???

Maybe this "Do it now" attitude comes from seeing too much death in my own life
and seeing the finality and dreams never realized in it ?

Beyond that, I don't give two hoots what will become of the old dog or any of
my old junk after I am dead. Last bit of research I did on the subject told me that
most dead people don't do much driving or tinkering anyway, and I have deeper
things to concern myself with while still alive than worrying about what happens
after I croak.

[RustyFords]

Building on what Mr. Loftfield wrote, I am neverendingly amazed by people who
live lives they dislike, never thinking to change them and live the life they want.
I purposely chased down and bought my T to drive backroads. I purposely LEFT
where I spent the first 37 years of my life to escape the freeways and sprawl, to
a place where driving a T in its natural environment does not require a trailer. I
cannot count how many times I have read on this forum, where people who live
for their T, say they cannot drive them outside their neighborhood for fear of being
run over. Walk that out ! They CHOOSE to make their passion obsolete by living
in a place they cannot enjoy their passion, but yet don't make the connection that
they are making a choice. Are they waiting for their next life to really make the
commitment ??? ...............
................Beyond that, I don't give two hoots what will become of the old dog or any of
my old junk after I am dead.

Good for you Brent.

I'm working overtime (literally) to remove myself from the current existence I have fighting the battles of business in the big city and all that goes with it. If my plans continue to fall into place, I'll be rid of it in no more than two years. That'll put me at the young age of 53 in a similar situation to yours.

Of course, if the Marxists gain control, all bets are off, but I'm keeping a good thought.

As for T's and whether or not they go modern, my 24 is still using buzz-coils and stock brakes. I think they're just fine for the putting around that I do with my car. This car is no more at home on modern roads than is a horse. We don't use horses on the insterstate highways and other high speed roads but horse enthusiasts still use them for work and fun and I think that will continue for a while as well.

After 2099...who knows. I won't be around....thank God. Having been born and raised on a south Texas cotton farm, I don't recognize the world I live in now and, more often than not, I find myself not wanting to be in it. Maybe that's just my PTSD infested brain speaking out loud.

Also like you, I don't care a whit what my wife does with my old car collection or my fairly extensive shop/tools/etc when I'm gone. Hopefully she makes a good penny off of it all, but if not that's fine too.

[Oldav8tor]

I suspect the availability of affordable fuel will eventually be the biggest problem though I doubt in my lifetime. Actually, it's a case of history repeating itself as the same problem plagued Model T owners in the depression and WWII. Many reverted to a combination of old and "new" technology.

[Rich Eagle]

Before the gasoline supply disappears completely it will be really cheap. That's when we should do our touring.

[Been Here Before]

Some interesting responses. Not what I expected.

The fact that the group who operate a car that can be maintained with a screw driver and a pliers, not to mention bailing wire, have forgotten that the horse will provide dung that can be burned for gas and the engine will operate. Who needs gasoline or even alcohol for fuel?

One thing about dung:

The benefits of using dry animal dung include:
• Cheaper than most modern fuels
• Efficient
• Alleviates local pressure on wood resources
• Readily available - short walking time required to collect fuel
• No cash outlays necessary for purchase (can be exchanged for other products)
• Less environmental pollution compared to some other fuels
• Safe disposal of animal dung
• Sustainable and renewable energy source

So the horse and Model T can coexist in the future...not so certain about the Prius.

unnamedwoodgass.jpg (55.07 KiB) Viewed 2607 times

[Oldav8tor]

In WWII they used wood burning gasification units when gasoline was not available. Not perfect but hey, it worked.