MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:03 pm**

I have a 1926 model T roadster that's had a total restoration done BEFORE I bought it and it has a lot of up grades including a VW style distributor. Does anyone have points and condenser numbers? Thanks, bobt

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:11 pm**

you’ll need to be more specific about VW style distributor. do you have a model number. even a picture may help . there were true VW distributors, reproduction like VW. , suppliers offered some front plate & clip on. also is it 6 or 12 volt

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:43 pm**

Yes, upload a photo - someone on here will surely be able to I.D. it !

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:07 pm**

If it is a Texas T Distributor set up, go to their web sight. It has the Napa numbers. The thing you have to watch is the cap clips attachment. Riveted clips use one number and screwed clips use another. Usually you can just ask for parts for a 1967 VW beetle. I’d take the points with you to make sure the configuration is correct.
Try these Napa #
Riveted cap clips points CA323SB
Screw type CS314
Condenser same on all EP 466
Cap EP274SB
Rotor EP2785SB
Good luck!
Should fit all 009 distributor style

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:22 pm**

...it has a lot of up grades...

Is a disturbutor an upgrade? I've been stuck by the side of the road by those things more times than I care to remember. And the Ford ignition system? So far no.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:40 pm**

Both need to be watched over and both have their own idiosyncrasies. They both work and work well especially if you know your stuff. That said there are (apparently) a heck of a lot of T’s that have been switched over for whatever reason. Many in the years gone by. I will say that the coil and the condenser are supposed to correspond with each other for best point life.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:44 pm**

My experience as well. I suppose back when buzz coil tech was considered
"old" and obsolete, the idea that newer ignition designs were "upgrades" crept
into the collective paradigm. But with the T hobby developing and supporting
T-owners, the tech and parts availability has made original buzz coils more
reliable than later "upgrade" systems. I am surrounded by oldtimer T guys, and
when I got serious about owning one, I raised the coil vs. distributor question,
and was met with a flat "Why ?". I was then filled with information about how
to live and work with buzz coils. Been doing them ever since. I am grateful for
that intervention, as I find the buzz coils such a neat part of Model T ownership.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:27 am**

If you think the Model T ignition system is confusing/poor, just wait until you have a condenser go bad on a distributer ignition system! They can drive you nuts!! I have seen them mimic several different problems. Been there several times in the last fifty years, not on T's, but on so called "modern" cars.

JMHO Dave

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:01 am**

The easiest way to diagnose a failing cap in the Kettering ignition system is check the spark.
A fat blue spark is ideal.
An orange spark denotes a failing cap.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:36 am**

Always carry spares, whether its original coils and timer or distributor. I carry a spare set of points, cap, rotor, condenser. And just like we used to do on our "old modern" vehicles, do a tune up and check the points, cap and rotor for wear and pitting at least once a year

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:20 pm**

In the early days there were many knowledge people with respect to the Model T ignition system. Test equipment & parts were readily available (magneto, coils & timers). In the '20s distributors (American Bosch, Atwater Kent and others) became popular accessories. So, the concept of replacing timers & coils is not a "modern" upgrade. Replacing a distributor cap , points & rotor is less complicated than replacing & calibrating position of a timer & roller/brush. A possible failed condenser is just replaced with a new one at little cost - no need to check it out. The cost of a single reconditioned Buzz Coil makes one think about options; an entire set may drive one to an upgrade device.
Every Model T year had "upgrades" over the previous one. The one you posses Today may even have parts you replaced with materials that were better than the original. If you own an "improved vehicle" are you bullied by the "brass generation"?

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:29 pm**

Replacing a distributor cap , points & rotor is less complicated than replacing & calibrating position of a timer & roller/brush.

That depends on the vehicle. Crawling over a Chebby 350 to do the job way in back of the engine is torture.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:18 pm**

Steve, Maybe you might apricate my tale of woe concerning points & condenser replacement on GM distributors that are in the rear of the engine compartment. Common place 50 years ago was the annual tune-up, yearly or at about 12,000 miles generally called for replacement of "lead" fouled spark plugs, points & condenser, inspect cap & rotor, replace as necessary , usually the underside of the rotor showed signs of carbon tracking so that got changed. A fuel filter change & set dwell & timing followed by a road test. What I am leading up to is a Bad Habit that I was cursed with while doing the said tune up, in replacing the condenser a number of times I had left the condenser screw loose which did not affect any of the tune up until after releasing the vehicle to the customer sometimes having the vehicle return misfiring. Only to find that I had left that damn screw loose. Finally to counter the bad habit(seems I could not shake) I finally skipped the condenser change all together, at that time I never found a bad OEM condenser, something todays Chinese or equivalent junk will not equal. The GM trucks were the worst as I was never 6'6" tall & had to get prone over the powerplant to reach the distributor. Lengthy I know but that is my story. George

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:10 pm**

The Model T buzz coils are certainly antiquated, however....

In my relatively short time driving a T, I've had a wooden coil go south on me one time. The thing was running fine, then it was running like stink. I found a parking lot, and did the whole "short out one cylinder at a time" trick. That immediately identified the culprit coil. I replaced it with a spare I keep in the toolbox, and viola, I was back on my way in less than 10 minutes total.

Ignition problems in old cars that use distributors/points are not that easy to diagnose.

So, there is something to be said for the old buzz coils...not to mention how cool they are when you're showing off the car.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:21 pm**

I have been on many T tours, and find most of the breakdowns are on cars with non-T parts. If you continue to drive with the distributor, be sure to carry a spare rotor, cap, points and condenser because you usually won't find someone with spares to fit and many Auto Parts stores don't carry them either unless you order them and wait a few days.
With T parts, even if you don't have a spare coil or timer, there will usually be someone on the tour who can loan you one and even if not available, you might be able to limp in with 3 cylinders firing.
Norm

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:47 pm**

Come on people! How the car is, is how he bought it! A few bucks on points and condenser and he can enjoy his T. Returning to stock most likely requires removing the engine and transmission to remove the oil slingers, installing mag ring and magnets. I would advise him not to open his hood at a model T club show lest the shaming begin.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:32 pm**

When I first started with model T’s, my mentor, ran original Ford coils and timer. He adjusted components by sight and sound. I never had a car that ran right. Very discouraging for a T beginner.
We used to race VW’s. I know how to make them run and run well. So adapting to the Texas T set up was easy.
The originals are fun. But I have good luck with distributors. And I get shamed all the time. But overall, it’s been good!
And congratulations to those who do it original. You have my utmost respect!
Tom

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:52 pm**

JohnM wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:47 pm
Come on people! How the car is, is how he bought it! A few bucks on points and condenser and he can enjoy his T. Returning to stock most likely requires removing the engine and transmission to remove the oil slingers, installing mag ring and magnets. I would advise him not to open his hood at a model T club show lest the shaming begin.

I agree.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:40 pm**

Distributor T’s are rather common today. Certainly nothing odd. My thought on that is that there must have been a hell of a lot more of them way back when. Also to my mind this commonness makes the distributor T OK. You just have to know your system and carry the extra parts you might need. And both require carrying parts. Learn how what you have works and keep those pictures of dead presidents in that piece of dead cow in your back pocket. Drive and enjoy.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:55 pm**

In automotive terminology a condenser is another word for a capacitor - there is a "condenser" in each buzz coil

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:52 pm**

Seems like it's very seldom that anybody talks about the fact that Ford went to the distributor/single coil ignition system in the new 1928 Model A (as did most of the rest of the automobile industry) and nobody ever looked back for 40 or 50 years until electronic ignition systems took over. And I won't say that nobody did it, but I honestly can't say that I ever knew anybody that actually carried around spare points and condensers in their cars,.....harold

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:12 am**

Unless the points have been filed many times (like on my 48 F2), they and the coil rarely give problems. The condenser maybe.
Most of us will never take our cars for judging and if we do local car shows, 99% of the people would not know the difference, so lift that hood.
How come no one jumps on this band wagon when someone talks about a magneto or front plate type setup? The have points and a condenser too.
Sure some of the era distributors are hard to get parts for, but most people don't drive enough to worry except maybe wiping the points and cleaning the crust off the rotor and cap contacts in the cap each spring. Go back and find all the post on guys that have had issues with their timers or coils, there have been more then a few. No system is bullet proof if not taken care off, Coils or distributor. Personally I don't care which system is on mine or others cars as long as it gets down the road and am just as willing to help without criticizing their choice if help is needed.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:02 am**

Folks abandoned or still abandon the original Model T ignition system out of frustration and convenience in my view. The tools necessary to properly adjust coil points were scarce, expensive and elusive to master discouraging to the DIYer. The alternative was the periodic expense and inconvenience of sending them to an acclaimed coil guru and waiting in their queue for them to work their magic and be returned. None of that is true today! The tools to properly adjust coil points are readily available at a fraction of the cost of vintage tools, far more accurate in adjusting coils for equal and consistent firing time, easy to use and master for the DIYer. Many Model T clubs provide access to these modern coil adjusting tools to their members at no cost as an added benefit for joining. The alternative of sending coils to a coil guru is still an option but today there are literal hundreds of coil gurus all around the country in which to choose that can provide nearly identical results. This keeps cost and lead times to return your coils to a minimum. For these reasons, folks have successfully reverted back to the original Model T ignition system to enjoy its use without sacrificing performance or worrying about scarce parts in the event an issue does occur on Tour.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:04 am**

MKossor wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:02 am
Folks abandoned or still abandon the original Model T ignition system out of frustration and convenience in my view. The tools necessary to properly adjust coil points were scarce, expensive and elusive to master discouraging to the DIYer. The alternative was the periodic expense and inconvenience of sending them to an acclaimed coil guru and waiting in their queue for them to work their magic and be returned. None of that is true today! The tools to properly adjust coil points are readily available at a fraction of the cost of vintage tools, far more accurate in adjusting coils for equal and consistent firing time, easy to use and master for the DIYer. Many Model T clubs provide access to these modern coil adjusting tools to their members at no cost as an added benefit for joining. The alternative of sending coils to a coil guru is still an option but today there are literal hundreds of coil gurus all around the country in which to choose that can provide nearly identical results. This keeps cost and lead times to return your coils to a minimum. For these reasons, folks have successfully reverted back to the original Model T ignition system to enjoy its use without sacrificing performance or worrying about scarce parts in the event an issue does occur on Tour.

Truer words cannot be spoken. I have an ECCT and it has allowed me to fine tune my wooden coils to perfection.

I even pull them all out of the car periodically just to dial them all in a bit. It's proven to be mostly uneccesary, but it's so much fun that I do it anyway.

I highly recommend Mike's brilliant invention.

I also bought one of Mike's i-timers, but through my own slopiness, I ruined it. I was running the car with a very leaky old radiator and allowed water to get into the timer and sit there for a week. I'll eventually buy another one and get it installed.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:20 am**

FWIW....I have no opinion on the whole distributor vs wooden coil thing. It’s not like you need my approval but do what you want with your car. The object is to have fun...right?

Posted: **Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:05 pm**

JohnM wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:47 pm
Come on people! How the car is, is how he bought it! A few bucks on points and condenser and he can enjoy his T. Returning to stock most likely requires removing the engine and transmission to remove the oil slingers, installing mag ring and magnets. I would advise him not to open his hood at a model T club show lest the shaming begin.

You make a good point. I also disagree with the "shaming" part, as I find engineering beauty both in a well restored original timer system and a well restored splitdorf or bosch dizzy that uses an old school (and restored) coil.

I figure if someone doesn't like what I have on my car, they either (a) don't have to drive / own it, or (b) can buy it from me (for an outrageously over-inflated price) and fix it to their desires. My current ignition is 4 buzz boxes running off an authentic, rather bizarre (but exremely well mannered) timer that uses 4 sets of breaker points - and it has never, ever, not one time failed me, even after years (make that decades) of abuse and neglect.

Posted: **Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:47 pm**

Man this thread sure went in the weeds. Did the author get his answers yet on what he needs?

Posted: **Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:26 pm**

I don't know. If he could post a photo or 2 of what he has we could probably ID it and get him on the right track. Condenser is easy. Points, maybe easy, maybe not. If it's one of those 009 conversions, those are dime a dozen easy, google "VW type 1 ignition parts". If it's a era-correct Delco, it may take both some searching and some adapting.

Posted: **Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:00 pm**

There are two maybe 3 reasons why some T's have distributor. Reason #1 The magneto no longer works so the distributor was added to avoid pulling the engine to fix the magneto. #2 the owner doesn't understand or want to maintain the original type ignition system so switch to distributor which he understands better. Some people remove the magnets so the engine will spin a bit faster for such cars as speedsters.
I don't criticize anyone for the type ignition system they choose to use, however I do believe in carrying spare parts, because they are not easy to find when out on a tour.
I, personally like to show people the simplicity of the car. I show the gravity feed fuel system, and tell about the splash oil system without an oil pump and the thermocycle cooling system. I also show the timer and coil ignition system. Anyway whether or not I am in a car show or on a tour, or just driving around town I almost always have interested spectators asking about the car.
Norm

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:21 am**

Hello! I started the thread and yes, I found the answer I needed. The only problem I had was finding left or right hand points for my VW distributor. Both are available. Thanks to all who responded. bobt

Posted: **Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:22 pm**

You're welcome! Of course, now you have to post a picture of the car and the set up you have, so we can talk about you behind your back, er, um, no, I mean, um, keep it as a reference for the nest person who has a similar problem!

Seriously, glad you're back on the road. And yes, a pix of the car would be cool, too!!

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