VIN #

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Gufegramps
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VIN #

Post by Gufegramps » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:40 pm

Have a new to me 1924 Touring. What and where are numbers used for VIN located and how many digits ?

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Steve Jelf
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Re: VIN #

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:53 pm

The only VIN is the engine serial number stamped above the water inlet. In the mid-twenties it should be eight digits. If you don't have the encyclopedia yet I can look it up for you and get the exact date.

I should add that dating the engine doesn't necessarily mean dating the car, as engine swaps are so common. You also have to note other features that are typical for a particular year. It's not rare for a car to be titled and registered incorrectly and for people to be mistaken about what they have.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

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John iaccino
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Re: VIN #

Post by John iaccino » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:51 am

If you are going to go to your local DMV, do not tell them that the number is the engine number. Tell them the number is the VIN. If you tell them the number is the engine number, you will run into all sorts of trouble.

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TWrenn
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Re: VIN #

Post by TWrenn » Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:37 am

Maybe I'm being too picky and particular here, but what "worries" me is where, or who from, did you buy this car in which none of this was explained? Unless you have a bill of sale with said number listed on it, this number SHOULD be matching on the title, or you're in for a boatload of grief. To me this is the least anyone can provide a buyer. Then, what else has been neglected in relation to this car?

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Re: VIN #

Post by John.Zibell » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:05 am

TWrenn wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:37 am
Maybe I'm being too picky and particular here, but what "worries" me is where, or who from, did you buy this car in which none of this was explained? Unless you have a bill of sale with said number listed on it, this number SHOULD be matching on the title, or you're in for a boatload of grief. To me this is the least anyone can provide a buyer. Then, what else has been neglected in relation to this car?
In some states cars made before a certain year are not titled. So all you have to go by is the bill of sale. Model Ts then wouldn't have a title depending on where you live.
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Re: VIN #

Post by John kuehn » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:09 am

Good advice from John Iacinno!
If you try to get your car registered at the DMV don’t try to tell them a lot of information about the car. What that does is create more questions at the DMV. The people who usually you would deal with don’t know much about antique cars.
And if you don’t have a title you can use a bonded title service that has experience with old and antique cars. It may cost a little more but they know what to do in acquiring a title. Hopefully you have some sort of documents you got from the seller but if not the bonded service can still usually get the title work done,
I’ve had to use a bonded service with my 21 Touring to get a good title and I didn’t have anything at all. At the very least get a bill of sale from the seller. That can help get you started.
Good luck

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Re: VIN #

Post by John iaccino » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:40 am

In New York, there is an affidavit you can sign stating that you have owned the car for a number of years, but lost the registration. They will give you a duplicate registration that can be used to register the car. Some people use this to circumvent the registration process. I have heard of this being done but would never do this myself.

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Re: VIN #

Post by DanTreace » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:46 am

Location of engine number or "VIN" for the Model T Ford.


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Re: VIN #

Post by TWrenn » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:25 am

Thanks John, I did overlook that aspect of it. I shoulda rememered, back in '12 when I got my very first antique car, a Model A, from New Yahk, it had no title 'cause they didn't title them either. My bad. Lack of much info didn't help. Hope he did get a bill of sale. Frankly, as I progressed and learned, I demanded a B.O.S. whether there was a title or not. Just covers your patata!


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Re: VIN #

Post by Dan Hatch » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:30 am

What matters is what the law in YOUR State says.
In Alabama, the registration law says that if a vehicle does not have aVIN the engine number is use to register the vehicle.
Look up what your State law says, read it,print it and know it before you go.
But, DO NOT act like you know more that the clerk that is helping you. They are on a power trip and hate people that know more than them.

I always get “ Where be the title at?” when I go to register a T. I have to explain that in Alabama vehicles before 1975 can not have titles only be registered.
Good luck. Just do your homework. Dan

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Re: VIN #

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:14 am

Whenever this subject comes up it's remarkable how many people offer advice that may apply in their state but doesn't in others. There are certain rules that apply everywhere, like don't volunteer any information that isn't asked for.* But the details of hoops you have to jump through vary widely. In some states it's just a little hop, and in others it's a pole vault. I believe the best approach is to check your state's DOT or DMV website and learn the actual laws and rules for your state. You can even print out a copy, highlight the parts that apply to your case, and take it with you when you go to the local office to deal with the bureaucracy. You may not even need it, but it's good to have in case you run into some folks who don't know their job. Competence is not universal.

*Another one I like is to refer to the engine serial number as the VIN, because with a Model T that's what it is. But what about a 26-27 with non-matching numbers? What say ye ladies and gentlemen of the jury? Should you use the original frame number, or the current engine number?
The inevitable often happens.
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1923 Touring


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Re: VIN #

Post by RGould1910 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:34 am

I only recently discovered the VIN on title, the engine number and the frame number to my 27 were all different. I puchased the car almost 3 years ago and didnt bother to check it out until I was in an accident and fied an insurance claim. My car was totalled and I bought it back from the insurance co. for salvage value. I had a devil of a time getting a salvage title given the differences between the VIN and the engine and frame numbers. The car was eventually titled in California using the engine number.


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Re: VIN #

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:42 am

FWIW, the OP hails from Texas, according to his profile. Perhaps Texans reading the forum can offer some tips in how the Texas DMV operates ?
"Get a horse !"

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Re: VIN #

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:06 pm

Understanding the VIN number as perceived by your States DOT and Model T identification numbering.
Owners of Model T's rely on the Engine's serial number to identify the date of manufacture of their vehicle. As many owners know that this method is somewhat flawed as engines may have been replaced over the years. Some times a "body number" was used to identify a vehicle. So at some time in the distant past a vehicle may have been sold or registered with one of these numbers, correctly or incorrectly.
The "VIN number" history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_i ... ion_number
A vehicle identification number (VIN) (also called a chassis number or frame number) is a unique code, including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds, as defined in ISO 3779 (content and structure) and ISO 4030 (location and attachment).
VINs were first used in 1954 in the United States. From 1954 to 1981, there was no accepted standard for these numbers, so different manufacturers used different formats.
In 1954, at the request of the US government, US car manufacturers and the Automobile Manufacturers Association were involved in the creation of the new, standardized vehicle identification numbering system named the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) with an agreed upon digit sequence and concealed chassis markings of this VIN. Up to that time, states used the engine number to register and title cars and trucks which became a problem if the engine was replaced, which was fairly common at the time.[citation needed]
In 1981, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the United States standardized the format.[1] It required all on-road vehicles sold to contain a 17-character VIN, which does not include the letters O (o), I (i), and Q (q) (to avoid confusion with numerals 0, 1, and 9)

SO NOW WHAT?
Focus on your objective. If you want to get the car titled your DOT is going to ask you for a VIN number. As stated above you don't want to confuse them by saying Model T's don't have a VIN per se and say here is t he engine number. You most likely can satisfy them by saying here is the number on the chassis... Now don't lie, what you need to do is get a strip of non-rusting old looking metal and punch stamp a number on it (what is on the bill of sale or current tittle - if don't have either use t he engine number ) and affix it, rivet (not blind rivet) it to the frame under the passenger seat of your T in a location that can be observed by an inspector,. (maybe the inside of the frame wall). Now everyone is happy and no one got confused by being "technically correct"
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger


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Re: VIN #

Post by Altair » Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:11 pm

Here in B.C. in the early days the DMV used only engine numbers and then converted to the multi digit registration numbers. When I towed my 26 T to the motor vehicle office it had no engine and they used the body number. Vintage cars were filed in a separate vintage car file and later they discontinued the vintage car file and integrated all the vintage cars into the general file and assigned a multi digit registration number at that time and today that is the number I still use. The engine number, frame number and body number are no longer used.

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Re: VIN #

Post by John Warren » Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:54 pm

On the 26/27 use the frame numbers when possible because if you need to change the engine, it won't create title problems in the future. In my case I had a vin # that wasn't model t. It must have been a fictitious number assigned to it, to title it in the day ( late 60's ). My car had a frame # and I wanted the title to reflect that #. Arizona DMV inspected it and issued a title with the correct numbers, the engine had been changed. I have seen people have a title that matched nothing. In this case I would suggest stamping a small plate with the vin # you have and installing it on the firewall. This way you have clam to your car, and I have seen these be inspected and a new title issued to that number. Good luck !
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Re: VIN #

Post by John kuehn » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:04 pm

Since your in Texas the issue of not having a title like myself is the reason I used a bonded title service.

Here in Texas the issue of a serial no. comes up when your getting the info together to take to the DMV to try to start acquiring a title. As I remember the information on vehicles in Texas is expunged after 25 years. So even if I would have had a title with a correct serial no. It still would not count to getting a title.
The officer at the DMV Texas is concerned if the car has been stolen and if it would come up on a stolen database. That’s the reason a vehicle has to get inspected at a DMV in Texas to determine if it’s stolen.
My T of course wasn’t and it passed. I then went back with the Title service and eventually got the title.
My 21 Touring didn’t have any type of documentation at all. No title, no bill of sale or anything.
All I had was the remains of the car that I bought with cash years before with no engine. I found a 21 engine and that was used in the car. I followed the steps the title service suggested and they did the rest.
Hope this helps for Texas T owners.

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Re: VIN #

Post by DanTreace » Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:10 pm

FL is fairly easy for antique and custom car registrations, of course a title from previous owner is needed, or a current registration from a non-title state. The motor number is recognized as the 'VIN" or vehicle id number.

And if you have a FL titled antique car, and need to change the engine, it is a self-attested form to change the engine number or 'VIN' on your title and get a new titled issued for the now changed new motor :)



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The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

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