1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

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nsbrassnut
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1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by nsbrassnut » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:43 pm

Hi All

A saw a posting recently that stated the US '15 open Ford Ts never came with forked headlights.

There is a factory picture of one in one of the reference books ((McAuley's?). One with forked lights that is currently being looked for along with its stolen trailer.

And this original preserved one that I saw at Greenfield Village old car festival in 2011. So there appears to be some supporting evidence for US roadsters with forked headlights in early '15.

Our Canadian '15's used forked head lights for the full year and changed to the post mounted ones with the '16 model years. The Canadian parts book lists the lights this way two.

So I think with Ford Ts perhaps one should never say never.

Has anyone else seen US '15Ts with forked headlights>

Drive Safe
Jeff
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Ford 15 GF2.pdf
(479.84 KiB) Downloaded 187 times
Ford 15 GF1.pdf
(447.76 KiB) Downloaded 149 times


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Dan Haynes » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:00 pm

That's an interesting car. It appears to have 30 x 3-1/2 tires on the front. The headlights are like nothing else I've seen in period photos of American '15s. And the cowl lamps are likewise unusual. I'm not sure that car supports the theory headlight forks were common in U.S. open car production. Do you know for certain that car is a U.S. example? Intact since new, etc.? Not picking on it, but it is such a wealth of uncommon features for the year, I wouldn't use it as a textbook example.

Having said all that, if I had it, I would never change the lamps. LOL
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by nsbrassnut » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:29 pm

Hi Dan

I don't know much about its details. It did have a Michigan license plate and appears to be a survivor car. And it was well preserved inside and out with the original interior and even the data plate very tarnished barely still hanging on the firewall. Unfortunately for some reason the system won't let me upload the original picture file so I had to convert it to .pdf which might have lost some detail. The system is saying it cannot identify the picture file size when following all the regular steps won't accept the pictures.

The one front picture if you can zoom in shows it has the US body with the dummy drivers door and radiator marked "Made in USA". Unfortunately the only good side picture I took was the passenger side.

I I think its really a US model and an early one.

There were also supposed to be a few early '15s with a different cowl light other than the more standard ones. Which this car also appears to have.

Perhaps someone from the Michigan are may know more about the car.

Stay well.

Jeff
Nova Scotia


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Allan » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:46 am

If the front tyres rare 30 x 3.5" that too is a Canadian thing. They got rid of the skinnies early on.

Allan from down under.

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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:02 am

I expect the photos will post if you convert them to JPEG. Here they are in PNG form.

Screen Shot 2020-12-16 at 8.51.12 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-12-16 at 8.52.18 AM.png
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by WayneJ » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:17 am

I believe the cowl lamps are the same as those shown in photos of 1915 couplets, which were also produced early in the year.
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Dan Haynes » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:32 pm

The cowl lamps I have seen most often in photos of early '15-style bodies are the type below. This couplet is singularly good looking, the oversize headlights, tie-bar and large-door cowl lamps make a great combination.
2AA620F.jpg
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by nsbrassnut » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:38 pm

Here are a few pictures converted to .png which seem to have loaded this time.

The originals were .jpg but would not load. Although newer pictures in .jpg, but from a different camera have loaded just find.

And they are being loaded from my PC, not a mobile device.

Given the other details, Made in USA radiator, only one working door, etc. Canada was assembling radiators by '15 and they have only FORD on the front and are stamped Ford Ontario on the back of the top tank panel.

I think that if anything its more likely a US model that someone changed the front wheels over to 30 X 3 1/2 than it being a Canadian model.

And given the condition, it looks like an "always together" T.

And living in the Michigan / Detroit area it would be pretty easy to pick up the wheels and make the swap over the years.

Stay Well
Jeff
Nova Scotia
Attachments
Ford 15 GF test 3.png
Ford US 15 test 2.png
Ford test 1.png

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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:58 pm

Because of early production, could the above be the same coupe as shown in this link;
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1401592859
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:54 am

The early folding top couplet is quite interesting. With the acetylene gas headlamps, it is not a standard production car. It could even be one of the very few prototypes built summer of 1914. Or, while not very common, there are enough 1915/'16 and even black radiator 1917 models with gas lamps to know that while the factory did not produce them that way, a lot of people had them refitted. Although the factory usually did not authorize such things, it is believed that a lot of dealers facing the prospect of losing a customer, would install old model gas lamps on new cars for a few extra dollars. It must be remembered that people are funny creatures. They like things that are familiar. They like and trust what they are used to. Gas and oil lamps had been around for many many years. Those new-fangled electric things weren't familiar, or to be trusted yet in 1915 (at least for a lot of people).
I would sure like to hear what Russ Furstnow has to say about it!

The subject 1915 runabout looks to be a very nice survivor quality car that I would love to spend at least an hour looking over up close! How early it is I cannot tell from the photos. I cannot tell for certain from the two photos, zooming in close, but it looks to me that one if not both front fenders have the common three rivet brackets. Numerous 1915 open cars manufactured up through April, and some even as late as June of 1915 had the earlier four rivet brackets. Historic record is not clear about when the late 1914 and early 1915 crossover four rivet billed front fenders were actually used. Official records (from what I have read) do not even acknowledge that such fenders were ever used. Yet, hundreds of late 1914 and early 1915 surviving cars had them. Back in the '50s and '60s, many hobbyists replaced the four rivet fenders with the three rivet fenders in the belief that the four rivet fenders were not correct for a 1915. There are also original era photos showing open 1915 cars with the four rivet fenders.
The sidelamps on the subject car are also interesting. While some early 1915 center-door sedans and folding top couplets did use some oil lamps similar to these? They were only used for a very short time, nearly two months before anything other than a prototype runabout was produced in the 1915 style. Only a few (if I recall correctly, less than fifty?) runabouts of the '15 style were manufactured in December of 1914. Due to manufacturing difficulties with the new style cowls, production was delayed for several months while the problems were worked out. The 1914 style open cars continued to be produced through April of 1915, with the numbers shifting each month to more '15 style and less '14 style cars being produced.
While possible, it is very unlikely that any 1915 style runabout ever left the factory with that particular style oil sidelamp.
That style sidelamp was also sold after-market as replacements for use on Fords as well as any other car. They can be found in after-market catalogs from the era. Similar lamps were available in either rear bolt or spade mount versions.

The sidelamps for early 1915 style cars can be tough to sort out. I will not claim to be an expert, or know even half enough about them. Clearly however, there were a few variations used only on the late 1914 built center-door sedans and couplets. There also were a few transitional lamps used the first two to three months of 1915 style open car production. Last I heard, no good records have been found detailing much of those variations.
The font/bowl on the subject car appear to be a style that was used on early 1915 style open cars. However, the lamps that used that font/bowl had the more familiar bezel and lens similar (although slightly different) to the common later brass trimmed '15 sidelamps.

Over the years, I have seen several original era photographs of early 1915 style touring cars and runabouts with transitional oil sidelamps. Unfortunately, a computer crash a few years back lost some of them. However, while sorting through a bunch of old photos a couple weeks ago, I found these two.
Zooming in close, the detail isn't great, however, the sidelamps appear to have the earlier style bowls, shorter in height, larger around, with a seam going around the middle of the bowl. Both have the larger bezel and lens like the bulk of 1915 production. Also, zoomed in close, the detail isn't really clear, but one of them does have the single post mount headlamp. The distinctive four arm riveted bracket arm can be seen.
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1915notesidelamps.jpg.jpg
1915earlyrunaboutnotesidelamps.jpg
Last edited by Wayne Sheldon on Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Model T Mark » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:35 am

I always read with interest on this topic of open cars in 1915. I have a pretty early one, a roadster with a casting date of 10-7-14 and I bought it in a barn in Flint, Michigan in about 1980. It had a 12 rivet rear end in it. A splash apron with a carbide line hole and a running board with the holes drilled on both sides for a carbide tank. It also had one ribbed and two lettered pedals on it. It had a pair of fork mounted headlamps on it. It had one 4 rivet front fender on it with a bill and one 3 rivet front fender on it. The side lights are what I would consider typical for the year. When I restored it I removed all of those parts and installed typical year 1915 parts on it just so I wouldn't be questioned. It wasn't and still own the car to this day. It is hard to believe that it has now been restored almost 35 years. What is correct who knows. I wish I would have been there to take delivery of it new but if I was I wouldn't be here today. Stay safe!


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Russ_Furstnow » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:50 pm

Wayne,
I think it is difficult, if not impossible, to draw any conclusions about what is "correct" for a Model T by using one example as the source of information. That being said, I have not found any documentation from original parts books, "Ford Times" magazines, or "Ford Sales Bulletins" that specify forked mounted electric headlamps being used or available from the factory on a 1915 Ford made in the U.S.A.. Canadian Fords made in 1915 had forked mounted headlights....no question there.

The 1915 Ford Parts books identifies the E&J 456 headlamp with the 8 5/8" diameter lens as the "early" electric headlamp and around early February and March 1915, the E&J 1156 headlamp with the "standard 8" lens was introduced. This information is well documented in Ford literature, but NO forked headlamps are identified in the parts book. The early 1915 sidelamps are identified in the parts books as E&J Model 6 lamps and the taillamp is identified as the E&J Model 7. These sidelamps have a larger brass rim holding the clear lens and the taillamp has a smaller brass rim for the red lens. Later sidelamps were E&J Model 8 and the taillamp was the E&J Model 9. These later lamps had typical brass rims that were interchangeable between the side and tail lamp.

Royce Petersen wrote a very good article in the "Model T Times" in November 2018, detailing early 1915 Fords, and he obtained his information using various Assessions at the Benson Ford Library. In this article, he has several photos of early 1915 Fords, along with some 1915 "prototypes", that clearly show the sidelamps and headlamps. None of the cars shown have forked electric headlamps. Also, two common photos of two early 1915 Fords, a coupelet (seen in this post) and a sedan, have identical large carbide headlamps that never were used in production.

The runabout shown as the subject of this post is an interesting car. Since no one is around when this car was assembled/built, it is impossible to know why this car has its unique lamps, but I can say the lamps are not "typical" of Ford lamps for used on cars built in the U.S.A. in 1915.

I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow

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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by DanTreace » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:17 pm

Russ

Very well posted on those facts, which do support that Ford USA didn't have fork elec. lamps on the '15 when magneto lamps were introduced.

As for the photo example of the preserved 1915, it is clearly known that accessory lamp mfg. made elec. headlamps for early Ford's to replace the factory supplied gas lamps. Those elec. lamps were made for fork mounting, some in the 7' spread for the Ford yoke.

The example photo, if you zoom in on the lamps shows the rims with flat top edge and slight bevel side edges, very much like these accessory fork lamps. My guess is that well preserved Ford has accessory elec. fork lamps.


Ford US 15 test 2.png

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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Kerry » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:18 pm

Sales Brochure, USA, Nov 15 1914, Couplet and sedan, both with forked electric lights. So very possible a few of the first open cars as well?


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:48 pm

Thank you Russ F and Dan T for the additional facts. At least thirty years ago, I accepted as a probable fact that open 1915 style USA built model Ts did not have fork mounted headlamps. I remember when I was just getting started in this hobby over fifty years ago, being told that early 1915 open Ts had fork mounted lamps. I remember hearing about several people that put such lamps on their '15s. But I also started studying old photographs with a magnifying glass. Over the years, I have looked at many thousands of original era photographs of automobiles and street scenes. I have looked very closely with a magnifying glass, or zoomed in with the keyboard on thousands of them. I look at details as well as the overall picture. I had several opportunities to discuss details with Bruce McCalley and other researchers, and do not recall when I was first told about the Canadian 1915 Ts that did have fork mounted headlamps. However, ever since then, every time I saw a photo showing fork mounted headlamps, I looked for other Canadian details, or indications of what part of the world the picture was taken. Since then, about forty years and a thousand or more photos, I have never seen fork mounted headlamps on a 1915 style open T that was likely a USA build. Except of course more recent photos of cars where the lamps had probably been changed at some point.
I have trouble understanding why so many people still bring up this question again and again. We truly do know a lot more today about the details and timelines of the model T's production than was known when I was getting started in the hobby fifty years ago. We, all of us, need to understand that what we read in books and articles written more than fifty years ago may not be accurate. Royce P, Trent B, Jerry VanO, as well as you Russ F and Dan T and I am sure more than a dozen others have done a great deal of research and documentation over the past fifty years. I thank all of you for that. I mostly know what I have read from all of you and others, as well as what I have seen in era photographs.

While fork mounted headlamps may have been pretty well sorted out, I think the oil sidelamps are still somewhat of a gray area.
I was sorting through some more computer files late last night, and found another photo of an early '15 style T, this time a touring car. I remember this photo from a couple years ago, but had lost it when my computer crashed. Here again, it isn't the best photo for research purposes. While the detail and clarity is good, and the angle shows both sidelamps, the car clearly has been around the block a few thousand times. It also has a few accessories, giving a possibility that even the sidelamps could have been changed at some early point. Note the replacement radiator, hand klaxon, and H&D style shock absorbers. There is also something hanging out around the left sidelamp. Could have been electrified? Or not. Does cast some doubt on the car in the photo.
Speculation. IF transitional side and tail lamps were used (and I think it likely based upon the number of photos I have seen of them)? They most likely were used only the first month or two of 1915 style open car production. Basically, January, February, and MAYBE a few in early March of 1915. That would amount to a few thousand of the nearly two hundred thousand brass trimmed lamp 1915 cars.
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by Russ_Furstnow » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:07 pm

Frank, I have that sales brochure as well, but the images are artist renderings. I've not seen any original photos of 1915 Fords with the forked electric headlamps. One thought about the subject car....could the car have been assembled with carbide lamps at the factory and electric accessory lamps installed at the dealer or by the owner? We don't know the casting date on the block or the VIN, and maybe this car was one of the January 1915 early runabouts?? Who knows.
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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by DanTreace » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:28 am

Just a tid bit of more info on the 1915 open cars. Bruce's Big Book stated (p.193) that the open car 1915 with new style features "appeared Jan. 1915".

This article in April issue of Automobile, is announcing the new open cars 1915 with electric headlamps. The opening sentence says Ford had been delivering this new model for 'a little over a month', meaning likely the new version was introduced perhaps in Feb, maybe not Jan.

Just interesting to add this to this thread on headlamps ;)


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by George Mills » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:41 am

My belief is that the use of forked lamps for 1915 cars is and always will be an imponderable. After all the years of doing this stuff…I can assert that you can never satisfy yourself 100% on ANY transition era car. Unfortunately, in my time I’ve had cars built in 4 different transition periods. A 15, a 19, a 23 and one of the last ‘25’s built. (Groan). I can say that had I followed conventional advice at the various times, I would have destroyed what later was deemed as ‘probable’ and ok’d even by Bruce in revisions.

I look at the headlight thing this way…by the 14 model year folks were tired of acetylene/carbide lamps. Ford kept pushing them out and Corcoran and Victor were making a mint with their electric lamp conversion on all forked fords, but apparently particularly on 14’s. I feel that even dealers ‘might’ have done the aftermarket kit swaps to sell cars. The fact otherwise overlooked is that nobody had a nickel of disposable money in 1914 and Ford apparently refused to slow down output! Unsold 1914 cars were backing up all over the place. Somewhere there is reference to a survey taken late in 1914 asking the dealers and the branches what 1914 inventory they had available. I’ve never chased that one down, but it tells me there was concern, or ‘why ask?’ What follows is open cars are not released for production until actually early 1915, closed cars earlier. When the open cars appeared, I think they originally had the 8-5/8 rim which I strongly suspect was the standard Corcoran or Victor aftermarket offering and then Ford eventually kicked in the 8” ers which was their take on what was needed (e.g. Ford doesn’t use aftermarket parts as an original maker).

Everybody view and interpretation will be different…because you can’t prove yay or nay and I gave up a long time ago on accepting that new release photographs were ‘representative’ of production cars. As a researcher, fair warning, somehow that last piece of absolute conclusive evidence sought will never be found in the archives…no matter where you look. (I also do not believe there were hard model year changes…makes no sense…start moving along at 1 million or 2 million per year with a guy with a pencil on an inventory card…how the heck do you know when to cut off production for a changing item? You don’t, you overbuild for a variety of reasons and hope to use up the leftovers somewhere…based on my own personal experience, I’d be skeptical of some of the fall of ’14 builds as using leftovers.


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Re: 1915 US Ts with forked headlights question

Post by TrentB » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:23 pm

I have spent some time working with Accession 1701 engineering documents collections at the Benson Ford. Among the many Model T parts I researched were the early 1915 electric headlights. For what it is worth, I never found any evidence of the design, production or use of fork mounted electric headlights on Models Ts made in the USA. The only parts drawings for 1915 era electric headlights, preliminary or production, show the standard single mounting stalk design.

My research supports the conclusions Russ Furstnow published above.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess

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