13T - Starting issues and mixture adjustments

Post by **Darin Hull** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:33 pm

A few months ago I put a Holley NH carb on the 13T. I set the mixture per the guide on the MTFCA site. Reading past threads, I understood some Ts require making the mixture a little rich by a quarter or half turn to get a cold engine started.

That being said, my Holley NH runs about 1.25 turns open once it’s warm; however, when it is cold an extra quarter to half turn or so is not sufficient. To start my T, I have to open the mixture two and a half turns from fully closed (1.25 turns open more from the sweet spot) choke twice, then it usually starts right up. Once started, I can start slowly closing the mixture up until I get to my 1.25 turns open sweet spot.

Side note, which I don’t know if it is relevant... my previous carb was a Kingston L4 and it also required the same adjustment. Over a full turn open from the sweet spot to get it started up.

Today, it was only 50 degrees out but I could not get the T started. I could only get the engine to run for maybe a second and then it would quit. This was the same symptom which led me to discover I had to open the mixture over an additional revolution to get a cold engine to run and stay running when I first was learning how to start my T. It seemed to be a fuel delivery issue.

So, today I opened the mixture more and more but couldn’t get it to run and stay running. At how many turns open does it reach a point of ridiculousness? Someone had recently suggested I gap my spark plugs at .025 instead of .030, so I tried that with no change.

My question(s):

Is it odd that I have to turn the mixture knob over a full revolution open past my sweet spot to get a cold engine started? This amount seems much greater than the countless threads I’ve read. Is this a problem or indicates a problem? Or is it a non-issue?

Also, 50 doesn’t seem so cold. I’ve read plenty of threads about people’s suggestions on how to start a T when it is colder. It seems 50 doesn’t qualify as colder to a T. So would you all say the 50 degree thing, though it may be a little colder out than I’ve run before, is a non-factor in considering the struggles I had today?

Any suggestions before I head out tomorrow to try, again?

Thank you for your time,
Darin

Post by **DanTreace** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:18 pm

Darin

Your post didn't mention using the choke on the carb.

Most times on my T's only a little choke is needed on the first few revolutions, then the T will fire and run. On real cold days, it will run rough, so enriching the mixture a quarter turn helps. Then when warmed up in 3-5 minutes, re-set the mixture as before.

Post by **Darin Hull** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:23 pm

Dan,

I choke the carb for two hand cranks for a cold engine. Don’t choke the carb if the engine is warm.

Post by **KWTownsend** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:54 pm

I like a Holley G for hand cranking.
Quarter turn open from the sweet spot, then 9 1/4 primes with the switch off. Tirn tbe switch on then the usually starts with one pull.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:43 am

Having to make that much of a mixture adjustment is nowhere near normal. I can't remember when I last adjusted the mixture on any of my T's, to start or in running. There has to be something else going on, or off, in your case.

Allan from down under.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:56 am

To me, it sounds as if you have an intake/vacuum leak. I've suggested this to you in the past, with regard to the intake manifold gaskets, so I'm confident that you have checked that out and eliminated that possibility. I'm now wondering if the mounting flange on your intake manifold is flat. Years of overtightening and using gaskets that are too thick, can bend the ears of the flange and cause the flange surface to become concave. The same can happen to the carburetor flange, which doubles the problem. It allows the flange ears to make good contact, while allowing a gap in between which is now a vacuum leak. Try removing the the carburetor and placing a straight edge across the flanges to check for flatness. If you find them to be bent, correct it by carefully filing flat again. Note, this can especially be an issue with aluminum intakes.

Post by **TWrenn** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:10 am

Wow...no offense, but 9 & 1/4 primes on my 13 with an NH would flood the thing so bad it wouldn't start for an hour.
I do two primes, 3 maybe 4 "non prime, quarter yanks", and turn the switch on and she almost free starts. Too much compression I guess, but usually one or two quarter yanks and away she goes!

Post by **Darin Hull** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:41 pm

Went back out today, in the 50s, and tried again with no luck. Checked compression (all cylinders low 50s), checked spark, etc. I decided to see how the fuel flow was, so I opened the carb bowl petcock and the flow was good. Looked at the gas and immediately saw discoloration (bottom pic).

I decided to see if the discoloration (and possible contamination) was coming from the tank or was only in the carb bowl. I drained the carb bowl completely and then began filling another cup with gas I knew was fresh from the gas tank and had only passed through the carb. That gas looked good.

I decided to try and start the T up normally and she came to life. I drove the 13T around town for about seven miles and things seemed pretty good. I will take off the carb bowl in a while to see what’s going on there. But would you say contaminated gas could be my culprit?

Side note, I checked for an intake leak by using a propane torch method I had read in previous threads. No change in how the engine performed when the propane gas was directed toward where the intake met the block.

Also, the T had only been sitting for 17 days prior to getting it started today.

Darin

Post by **Darin Hull** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:58 pm

Inside of the carb bowl. Didn’t see any sludge in it. Should I drain the gas tank’s petcock to see what comes out of that?

2nighthawks · Post by **2nighthawks** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:27 pm

Dan Treace - You described my method exactly, except for one thing:

I would not have used the word,..."revolutions". In describing my method, I'd say, only choke on two strokes (not revolutions). To me, a "stroke" is one upward pull on the hand crank,....that is, one upward pull on the crank, from approx. eight o'clock to twelve o'clock noon, with the ignition off. After those two upward pulls, ignition on and then it'll start on the third upward pull of the crank.

I've had several occasions where somebody has had trouble with a hand-crank start (and this is invariably involves a flooded engine) and I've said, "can I give it a try?". I then turn ignition off, open hand throttle WIDE OPEN, hand crank (NO CHOKE) with at least four upward pulls on the hand crank (this clears out flooded engine condition) then close the hand throttle to about 1/4 open, turn on ignition, and next upward pull on crank will almost always start the engine!

Works for me,........(???) .....harold

2nighthawks · Post by **2nighthawks** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:35 pm

....to put it another way,....one upward pull on the crank, or, one stroke, equates to one intake stroke in one cylinder,....the second upward pull on the crank, (second stroke) equates to second intake stroke on a second cylinder,.....AND THAT IS ENOUGH CHOKE! Any more will flood the engine!

Bruce Compton · Post by **Bruce Compton** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:36 pm

Am I seeing the remains of paint on the inside of the cast iron and top of the inside of the bowl? Painting these parts is a no-no as dissolved paint plugs some passages. I would also suggest that you check the actual fuel level in the bowl while you have it off the car (1/4" clear tygon tube attached to the drain and extended up the outside of the bowl with gas supplied through a funnel into the inlet.)

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:00 pm

Bruce Compton wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:36 pm
Am I seeing the remains of paint on the inside of the cast iron and top of the inside of the bowl? Painting these parts is a no-no as dissolved paint plugs some passages. I would also suggest that you check the actual fuel level in the bowl while you have it off the car (1/4" clear tygon tube attached to the drain and extended up the outside of the bowl with gas supplied through a funnel into the inlet.)

Good thinking on the paint! Broken down paint could be why the gas in the bowl is discolored? Also, looks like flecks of paint have fallen away from cast iron.

Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:26 pm

I think just about everything was covered. And I am glad you got it started and ran for a while. Just a few questions which I don't think were covered and a couple suggestions as well. 1. I assume you are starting with a hand crank because the 13 didn't come with a starter and I would think that you would tell us if it had a starter. Questions. Did you rebuild or have the NH rebuilt? How old was the gas in your tank? Did you drain the sediment bulb? I have even gotten bad gas from a gas station. It must have had water in the tank at the station, because I ran for a little distance and it quit. I drained the sediment bulb and it would start and ran fine. We were on a tour and everyone who gassed up at that station had problems. Those who used another nearby station, had no problems. If the car has sat for a while and there is high humidity and high dewpoint, you could get water in the gas tank from changes in atmospheric pressure and condensation. And also our modern fuels only last a few months until they begin to deteriorate.
Here are a few suggestions. Choke for 2 or 3 upward pulls before you turn on the ignition. Advance the throttle a bit farther before cranking. After you drive the car, before turning off the ignition, push the throttle up as far as you can maintain an idle, then retard the spark as far as it will continue to idle. That point might be a notch or two below full retard. That is the point to set the spark lever for crank starting on magneto. If you are starting on battery, you can just retard it all the way. Sometimes they will start easier on battery and then switch to magneto after it is started. Another thing which could be of help would be a helper to advance the spark as soon as it starts, however, be very careful not to advance while the person cranking has his hand on the crank and if it doesn't keep running, be sure to retard again before cranking.
I hope these things are of help.
Norm

Post by **Darin Hull** » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:30 am

Norman,

Thank you for the advice, in answer to some of your questions/comments:

The 13T is hand crank start only

The Holley NH was rebuilt by a Model T carb expert

Last filled the gas tank Dec 2

I’ll drain the sediment bulb today and let ya know

I follow the turning off and starting procedures you mentioned every time

The 13T starts and runs on battery because the mag isn’t performing well enough to start/run on

I’ve got a 40 mile trip I’m knocking out today in the Georgia

T. Longest trip I’ve ever attempted considering I’ve only driven around town. It’ll be 57 degrees so should be great weather. I feel pretty good about the trip but will check the sediment bulb before I head out.

Thank you,
Darin

Post by **Darin Hull** » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:25 pm

Drained the sediment bulb. A few very tiny bits of debris but overall, the gas looked good.

Darin

Post by **Darin Hull** » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:53 pm

40 mile trip went nice and smooth. No problem whatsoever. Started easily and cruised 35-40 most of the way.

Post by **rnwilliams** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:35 am

I have had the same issue with my 1912 delivery. I have tried for months to had crank it. It will start with the crank once in a blue moon. If I pull start it or let it roll down a hill it will usually start right up. I have checked every thing I know to check. I have set the throttle and spark in every spot it has. I have parked it till spring. R. V. Anderson is checking my coil box. When spring rolls around I'm going to need some help to get this thing to hand crank.

Post by **jab35** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:21 am

Richard: How much endplay in the crankshaft? Does the crankshaft fan pulley move forward/rearward when you have your helper engage/disengage the clutch lever? (Obviously with engine off and wheels blocked.)

Post by **rnwilliams** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:25 pm

James, the engine has no noticeable end-play. This car was built and sat for 35 years without being moved. When I got it I had very little compression.
20lbs. I pulled the head and the oil pan inspection cover. I honed the cylinders, installed new pistons and rings along with new valves and valves springs. I now have about 45 lbs. compression across the board. I have checked every conceivable place for a leak. I have tried different carburetors. I can't really remember but I think I put an I-timer on this one. Right now I have a reproduction coil box with the newer style coils in it that were built by Ron Patterson. I have checked the timing multiple/multiple times. The thing I find strange is that the spark lever has to be advanced all the way down for it to run correctly. Another thing is when you choke it you just about can't flood the carburetor. Seems like it might not be pulling enough vacuum but I can't figure out why. It has a new flat tube radiator also but after driving it for about 3 or 4 mile it starts getting hot. I never have had a problem with any of my other cars like this. Something is wrong but i haven't found it yet!

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:37 pm

rnwilliams wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:25 pm
James, the engine has no noticeable end-play. This car was built and sat for 35 years without being moved. When I got it I had very little compression.
20lbs. I pulled the head and the oil pan inspection cover. I honed the cylinders, installed new pistons and rings along with new valves and valves springs. I now have about 45 lbs. compression across the board. I have checked every conceivable place for a leak. I have tried different carburetors. I can't really remember but I think I put an I-timer on this one. Right now I have a reproduction coil box with the newer style coils in it that were built by Ron Patterson. I have checked the timing multiple/multiple times. The thing I find strange is that the spark lever has to be advanced all the way down for it to run correctly. Another thing is when you choke it you just about can't flood the carburetor. Seems like it might not be pulling enough vacuum but I can't figure out why. It has a new flat tube radiator also but after driving it for about 3 or 4 mile it starts getting hot. I never have had a problem with any of my other cars like this. Something is wrong but i haven't found it yet!

If your spark lever has to be all the way down to be correctly advanced, then having it all the way up while starting will way too far retarded to start. Check your ignition timing and also check for excessive play in the timer linkage.

As to not being able to flood it, even if you try to, have you checked your carburetor float level? Maybe not enough gas in the bowl. If the float/bowl level is too low, the gas will sit way down below the jet and need more vacuum than you can create by cranking, to pull the gas up high enough to get it past the needle valve and into the venturi. Since the choke butterfly isn't exactly a perfect seal, even that may not be sufficient to pull up fuel from an underfilled bowl. Have you tried hand choking it?

Post by **rnwilliams** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:50 pm

Jerry, I have checked the linkage on the spark lever. It looks fine to me. When all the way up it is set at 15 degrees past top dead center. I have checked this a couple of different ways. I had a 1912 Holly on it. I tried a kingston 4 ball and I now have a holley NH that was running good off another car. They all did the same thing. I will check the fuel level in the NH to see what it looks like. That sounds reasonable. I will also try getting a helper to put a hand over the choke. Thanks for the advice. I'm at the end of my rope.

Ray Syverson · Post by **Ray Syverson** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:59 pm

It seems to me that when hand cranking and priming the engine before starting, you would want to have a fresh intake of gas mixture in each cylinder, and therefore should give the crank four upward pulls while pulling out the choke wire. If you only give two pulls while choked, wouldn't that mean that when you actually go to start it with the next pull, that cylinder will not be primed?

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:16 pm

Roy, whether it makes good sense or not, that's exactly what i do on a cold start on my 1912 van. That, and the true-fire ignition system, give me reliable starts all the time.

Allan from down under.

2nighthawks · Post by **2nighthawks** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:43 pm

Ray S. - This is get'n complicated, and it's kinda' hard to visualize, but if you think about it, on that 4th upward pull of the crank, you would have exhausted the first one that "intook" a fuel charge, and another one that "intook" a fuel charge, would have been compressed and then "de-compressed" for nothing, ......(....I think,....???)

DickC · Post by **DickC** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:25 am

I have had six T's and about all have had a different sequence of cold start. I had a 15 that required me to lift a rear wheel to start. That gave just the correct amount of momentum to ease the cranking and start. Most of the T's were different on the amount of extra fuel on the start cycle and the position of the gas. One of my current T's, 1912 depot hack, requires 4 primes with the ignition off and then turn the ignition on with usually a "free" start when cold. The point is, I think they or like most people. You have to get to know them and find out what "turns them on"!!!

Post by **rnwilliams** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:56 am

I love the cars we call Model T's. They all have their own unique personality. I've been trying to get to know this 1912 delivery for about 10 months now. He has not let me know his secret yet. I know I will understand him soon and we will be friends. I have got some really good suggestions on here and through email. Thanks for the help. I have missed something but I will find it soon. If it wasn't for the games they like to play with us it wouldn't be near as much fun.

Post by **Jerry VanOoteghem** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:25 am

rnwilliams wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:56 am
I love the cars we call Model T's. They all have their own unique personality. I've been trying to get to know this 1912 delivery for about 10 months now. He has not let me know his secret yet. I know I will understand him soon and we will be friends. I have got some really good suggestions on here and through email. Thanks for the help. I have missed something but I will find it soon. If it wasn't for the games they like to play with us it wouldn't be near as much fun.

The car will only be that much more enjoyable when you solve the problem! No better feeling than when you you've bested the demons that can lurk in these things!

Post by **Original Smith** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:46 am

I've always run NH carbs on all of my T's. I have two '13s that both start the same. I have the throttle lever about 1/3 down, and the spark fully advanced. With the gas on, I prime the engine three quarter turns. I then turn on the switch to battery, and retard the spark. Usually, the car will start on compression.

John Codman · Post by **John Codman** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:05 am

I agree with those who say that all Ts are different when starting. My '27 will not start with the spark fully retarded. It likes about three notches of "advance" (which is still retarded, just not as much). As mine warms up there will be considerable fooling with the mixture or it will quit. Once it is fully warmed up I can set the spark and mixture and fagedaboudit for the duration of the drive.

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13T - Starting issues and mixture adjustments

13T - Starting issues and mixture adjustments

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