sure mike cranks

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Joe Bell
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sure mike cranks

Post by Joe Bell » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:22 pm

Do any one run the Sure Mike cranks? Do they make a difference on pulling hills and vibration? I have a couple and been wondering if they are worth installing. Thanks Joe


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Kerry » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:33 pm

Come across a couple in engine rebuilds over the years, none passed a crack test.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:42 pm

Joe,

You probably know this already, but I've been told there were 2 styles of Sure Mikes. A "regular" one and a "heavy duty". I've also been told that the lighter ones are very prone to breaking, while the heavier ones are much better. I have a heavy one, but have never thought to use it. For one thing, it's pretty pitted...


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Joe Bell
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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Joe Bell » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:00 pm

Jerry, Thanks, I have seen both styles, had a light one years ago and magged it, it was cracked inside the front journal, both of these are the heavy style. My real interest was did they help with the extra counter weights? I have welded on the counter weights on several A cranks and it sure makes a difference with them. Thanks for any thoughts on this. Joe


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by big2bird » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:17 pm

20200828_080432.jpg
It does vibrate less. Much smoother.
More power uphill? Hard to say.
If a Scat was available back when I built it, it would be in there instead.
I did have a stock crank ground the same size at the same time in case.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by noelchico » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:28 pm

I have one in my 26. Put a .280 Chaffins cam and Z head on it. Lots less vibration than my 23 and 20 but haven't put a lot of miles on it. I don't know how to tell the difference between the light or heavy one and haven't had the bottom off the 26 for several years. Pulls strong at low RPM. haven't been over 45 with it.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by big2bird » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:20 pm

noelchico wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:28 pm
I have one in my 26. Put a .280 Chaffins cam and Z head on it. Lots less vibration than my 23 and 20 but haven't put a lot of miles on it. I don't know how to tell the difference between the light or heavy one and haven't had the bottom off the 26 for several years. Pulls strong at low RPM. haven't been over 45 with it.
Same deal with a low head. I have a Z on my shelf and a NOS Victor 101. Just don't have the car here. :cry:


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Adam » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:01 am

Joe, If you are going to try using one of those Sure Mike cranks, my advice would be to use it in an engine you build for yourself, not in a customers engine. You can be prepared for and understand the possible negative outcome and accept that risk, most customers might not be so understanding... Most of them will have cracks when you Magnaflux them and won’t be usable. Many of them have fillets that are too sharp and those cranks are particularly risky to use (even if they mag good, they may not last long). Remember also that these were performance parts and someone originally bought it with the idea to go faster and/or make more power... In other words; they likely were subject to more strain and abuse than “normal” and are very likely already significantly fatigued.


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Joe Bell
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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Joe Bell » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:58 am

Adam, one of them was in a customers engine, trying to decide to re install it if it is worth it and they know ahead of time about the crack issues that may or may not happen. The other was one I have had for some time and been a conversation piece, I have Skat's and a Dubatt's on the shelf and have never heard nothing bad of the Dubatt's crank either.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Erik Barrett » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:41 pm

Last year I repaired an engine that broke one of these. Ripped the rear wall out of a 1912 block. I had to have Lock n Stitch repair it. Then I put in a Scat crank. Don’t put one in a valuable block.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by gelfling » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:55 pm

I have a light one that has was in my '12 T when my father-in-law bought it for $500 back in 1974 as a non runner. I've had it since 2008. Had it magnafluxed two summers ago showing no cracks. I was advised of the crappy reputation of these, but decided to keep it running. it idles way smoother than a stock crank. Not sure what it does for power. I'll take smooth, and keep my fingers crossed.
Merry Christmas!


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by elliott1936 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:13 pm

I ran a sure mike crank in one of my engines and if I were you, I would take it to the scrap yard as it will break. Not a good thing to happen, as I lost the back half of the engine when it broke. Tom


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:13 pm

I have one with an arrow and an S in a diamond and was wondering if that was a Sure Mike crankshaft.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Allan » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:00 pm

Eric, I wish I could see photos of the broken out rear web in that 12 block. That would make 4 early blocks I know about with that same problem. Broken crankshaft + broken block on 3 of them. The fourth was a severely cracked block either side of the rear main web. I believe many of these failures, and I have seen it in later blocks too, happen when the rear web breaks loose and this leads to the broken crankshaft. They need to be examined closely at the break site. If the block has cracked before the failure, there will be signs of the crack in the casting 'working', before the final, sharp breakout at the last end of the cracks.
This problem may have been recognised in the factory, as later blocks came with revised strengthening ribs at the third main.

Allan from down under.

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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by TonyB » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:26 am

When we built the Speedster in 1992 we found a SureMike crankshaft for the project. We had it checked for cracks by using die and found a small surface imperfection. I spoke to Bruce and Lee and both said that most all original cranks had such problems. We decided to move ahead using the SureMike. It ran for a couple of years but eventually broke.
By then the New Zealand balanced crank was available thru Chaffins so we went with that. After resolving a couple of problems it’s been everything we were looking for.
Lesson. The SureMike’s are old and it’s probably not worth investing in the cost of babbitting to use an old crank when new ones are available. JMHO
Tony Bowker
La Mesa, California
1914 Touring, 1915 Speedster, 1924 Coupe.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Ralph F » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:31 pm

Joe I have a sure mike crank in my 15 touring, that my father found in a junk yard back in early 60'. He had it clean up and it has been the car ever since. The motor was rebuilt by Pat's restoration a couple of years ago. It does help with the vibration and smooth out the engine.
Fitz


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by SurfCityGene » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:51 pm

Allan and Eric, I had the same break in the back of my '12 block. Darn near didn't see the hairline crack during the rebuild. I'm still running that repaired block with a Bill Dubats crank but have another spare block.

I don't believe the crack existed before the crank failure although possible. Don't think there any blocks with the single gusset after '12?
1912 Torpedo Roadster


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:59 pm

Allan wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:00 pm
Eric, I wish I could see photos of the broken out rear web in that 12 block. That would make 4 early blocks I know about with that same problem. Broken crankshaft + broken block on 3 of them. The fourth was a severely cracked block either side of the rear main web. I believe many of these failures, and I have seen it in later blocks too, happen when the rear web breaks loose and this leads to the broken crankshaft. They need to be examined closely at the break site. If the block has cracked before the failure, there will be signs of the crack in the casting 'working', before the final, sharp breakout at the last end of the cracks.
This problem may have been recognised in the factory, as later blocks came with revised strengthening ribs at the third main.

Allan from down under.
Even if the block were cracked first, the main cap bolts should hold everything together well enough to prevent a crank failure, However, the crank breaking between the middle & rear mains would create some excellent leverage to break out the rear block web as the broken crank still turns but is now unsupported in the center area.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Kerry » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:34 pm

Jerry, can't say I've seen it work that way, when the back of the block breaks, it takes the bolt boss and all out.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Allan » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:25 pm

Jerry, the land which takes the rear main bolt heads is machined with a really sharp right angle against the back web. This creates a perfect stress riser. On three of the blocks I have witnessed, including one 1923 model, the cracks emanate from this machining and work out from there, So the bolts and the whole web break out as a big chunk.
I wonder if the same problems would ever occur if that machining had a radius against the block.

Allan from down under.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:46 pm

Allan wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:25 pm
Jerry, the land which takes the rear main bolt heads is machined with a really sharp right angle against the back web. This creates a perfect stress riser. On three of the blocks I have witnessed, including one 1923 model, the cracks emanate from this machining and work out from there, So the bolts and the whole web break out as a big chunk.
I wonder if the same problems would ever occur if that machining had a radius against the block.

Allan from down under.
OUCH! :o Didn't realize it was the whole back wall, bolts and all.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Harry Lillo » Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:16 pm

I have broken two crankshafts in the same block.
The first crankshaft broke as we were climbing Mount Hood on a MTFCA Tour out of Portland.
The fracture was on the front radius of the rear main. Other than some crunching noises and no power transfer to the
transmission there was little damage. With new (reground) crankshaft, re-babbitted mains and I was back on the road.
The second break occurred while climbing a long hill. This fracture occurred on the number four rod throw.
When the engine made its second revolution after the break the whole back of the block pushed back and broke out.
If you think about the brute force and leverage transmitted to the rear web of the block by this type of fracture
there is nowhere else for the metal to go. There were no old cracks from the first failure visible. While failures of the type may appear to propagate from a particular area, in my opinion, nothing can be done to prevent the web fracture when that broken crankshaft's rod pin comes around and hits the remaining portion of the crankshaft.
The first break made a pretty good popping sound; the second was much louder and violent. It shifted the pedals around as well.
To keep this on topic, I have a NOS Sure Mike in one of my engines. It is not a high horsepower engine so will hopefully stay together.
Harry


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Allan » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:46 am

Harry, let's hope it is third time lucky with that block! There may well be block breakages as a result of a crankshaft break. I guess it comes down to the luck of the draw at times. However, especially on the early blocks, cracked blocks do give way as I described. I bought one 1912 block, and found 3" cracks either side of the rear main. That example was obviously pulled from service before it gave out. Welding saved it. The 1923 block let go before being pulled. there were clear signs that the ends of the cracks nearest to the machined land were moving/polishing against each other prior to the clean break at the outer ends of the crack as it let go finally. I know of two other early blocks where the same thing happened.

I mention this whenever the ' broke a crank and it broke the block' comment is made, to alert folks that it may well have happened the other way round. It helps to make others aware of the need for close inspection/crack testing of blocks, especially early ones, and especially in the region of the third main bearing tunnel/web.

Allan from down under.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Harry Lillo » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:58 pm

Thanks Allan, I am not looking ahead to number three either.
We actually have a Broken T Crankshaft Club here in Calgary with about 10 members.
Jay K was an honorary member and was allowed to wear the jacket.
It looks like we have two separate issues here;
One is crankshafts breaking and forcing the rear web, the Second being cracks forming along the web of the rear of early blocks.
What year did the configuration of the blocks change?
I have a 13 Canadian block that I should inspect.
Are you seeing this cracking on Canadian blocks only?
Harry


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:18 pm

Interesting comments about the back of the 13 Canadian blocks. I have two of them (one in service with about 5000 miles now on it by me).
The other is getting a Schubert version shortened A crank. I will have to look at it as it is in process


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Allan » Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:06 pm

I believe all the early Canadian supplied blocks were US made anyway, so the problem should be universal. Just when Canada began casting their own blocks I don't know. Seeing the plant didn't open until 1913, I imagine it would be quite some time before they were casting their own engine blocks. Here in Australia the 'Made in USA' was chiselled/ground off blocks into the mid teens. The 1923 block was certainly Made in Canada.

Allan from down under.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by Kerry » Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:01 pm

Allan,
we might never know on Canadian block casting, Bruce McCalley's research and book says Dec 1919 around C230000 but I have a block in the workshop with casting date 2/18/18 C152000, with made in Canada on it.


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Re: sure mike cranks

Post by brendan.hoban » Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:00 am

I have a 22 Canadian block with s SureMike crank.

I ground the journals and reinstalled it when I restored the engine some years ago. I'm running a 250 cam and a Z head with aluminium pistons.

I have had no problems, the engine is a good performer on hills and is quiet and reasonably vibration free.

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