MTFCA Forum

Unpacked the box I got from Ron Patterson with the NOS New Day timers along with a Crystal timer with the aluminum ring that actually fits and got to fooling with some timers in my collection.

So let's do this for the new year. I'm going to post a couple of mine, anybody that has any kind of accessory timer, post it and we'll see how many we can post that are different. I'm willing to bet they made over 100 different ones, some pretty common and some pretty rare. Some of the more interesting ones are intended to work with a standard coil, not T coils and are pretty ingenious. I would guess they didn't sell too well. Let's include those.

Here we go. I will post one to start. Sun Automatic. The big idea here is to hold the timer in position for starting and the advance weights automatically adjusting the timing to get it right.

Here is a No-Kick

I like the No-Kick device. Proper contacts, immune to being off-centre and you could adjust the inter-cylinder timing off the car.
But did it work and last well?

Disclaimer: The timer is the one part of the engine that I have not yet researched and I do not even know if mine is complete. Plus the linkage is missing from the steering column.
The no-kick timer looks like a zinc casting, spring steel, brass bushing, copper contact and nut configuration. Seems like the points do not align perfectly and the cam has the beginning of a crack. My other brand 1953 car has one set of points. So, I suppose this should last four times longer. Nice oil fitting or could we pack grease? I think four years ago when we first got the Model T, we made the mistake of painting after cleaning the inside of the cap, if that is what you call it. I remember that it had slime green paint on the outside and maybe some pitting on the inside.

This is a fairly rare new old stock 100 ++ year old timer.
It is from my collection. It is not perfect but is new old stock, as close as you are going to get.

Stan H : I find this Timer in one of my parts box .
Toon

I have a few, but the best collection I remember is the "Old Timers" post Jay offered 9 years ago.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1328299000

Jay has so much good stuff. He's sold me a few things over the years. He had the only NOS Rayfield UF I've ever seen. A friend bought it for his carb collection -- he also has cool stuff.

I don't have as many timers as I thought I did, but I have some interesting ones. I'll post a few more after some other people post some.

There seems to be three main types. Roller in a lot of variations, Brush in a lot of variations, Points being closed by some kind of riser turning against them. A lot of people thought they had the answer to Ford ignition problems and some of them pretty much did. Without starting a war over which is best. I've run New Day for 60 years mostly and have always liked them. I'm going to try a couple of these if I ever get time tho.

Stan, that first one is a very interesting looking timer, do you know how very tempting your photo's are? What's more they're laid out nicely too, so I can see lots of detail...you've given me everything I need to draw these. Rare are they? Damn, I'm just itching to draw this too, lol.

That timer, looks like the housing is made of pot metal, so it probably gets very brittle over time (which may lend itself to why they're some few (if any other than yours) around today) and didn't hold up well. I notice that the contacts have a one leaf spring on their sharp bend, is that spring soldered to the contact at the base (where it is mounted to the wire post) or merely resting on the surface held in place by the post, causing the contact to retain that bend on that rest post? Obviously this timer is held on by the clip strap like on all later than the first 2500 Model T's, so you could conceivably run in on your car today if you wanted to, but I realize because of it's scarcity you'd not want to do that, but it would work...wonder how well it did work? Then I'd wonder why nobody has bothered to reproduce this particular timer...some more fool proof than later ones.

On the second one, off to the side on your pictures there is some little wrench looking thingy, is that in fact a wrench or a spacing tool?

An yes, yes, do post more timers! And everybody post nice layouts of the parts like Stan did...makes it much easier to draw that way, lol.

PS, did anybody notice that they misspelled Guarantee on the boxes side? And they say nobody can spell these days.

Chris, I would guess the NO Kick worked well because of being centered with the bearing holding the cap in place. I think it probably suffered from the same problems most of the point type did, oil to keep the bearing lubricated also caused the points to not make contact. This one has a hard felt seal with instructions how to place it behind the plate to stop it from getting engine oil in the timer.

Martin, that is a spacing tool for one of the others, the Sun. You can also see how the timer rod in the slot keeps it from moving too far.

If you want to draw these, I can send them to you and you can send them back when you are done. I'm going to try the No-Kick on my coupe when I get time but that is down the road. It's winter here.

It's not quite pot metal but isn't Aluminum. Might just be a better blend of pot metal or something. It's solid. I agree, if I was going to reproduce one that would be one I would think of.

Wait until I get to the ones with the ball bearing rollers. We were going to reproduce those but it was horrendous expensive. Now I think we could 3D print the parts and have them cast. No time but somebody might like to take it on.

Stan I appreciate your offer of sending them to me, but what with the way the mail is these days and how very rare these are, I'd feel terrible if something were to go missing or something because we're preparing to move out of state...all I really need are very clear and concise pictures and you've provided that on the "No-Kick" Timer...that plate on the Sun Timer, are those coil springs on the one side or rods bent to keep things in position...hard to tell from your picture on that one.

Stan, let me know if you ever decide to repro any of these, I also copied the box art as well, so I can reproduce that too...did you notice that the sides and top art are labels added to the box as was that black outline too? Probably done after the labels were applied, because on a couple of them, the black line covers the labels. It was probably the cheapest box they could get, just a simple red covered box and everything on it was added to it (i.e. labels and black outline). It would be cheaper than actually making art for a one piece printed cover, plus they could change any or all of whatever is being claimed without having to make a new cover layout...like that misspelling of "Guarantee".

Stan - Not to "clutter up" this interesting discussion on timers, but as an "aside", noticed something else interesting (to me at least) the address on the box of that timer,...2320 Michigan Ave in Chicago. That location is three blocks south on Michigan Ave of Chicago Technical College, where I got my only 2 years of college education. It has always amazed me how often I run into addresses of small businesses that manufactured Model T parts and accessories that were located in that "near" South Side neighborhood of Chicago, just south of the Chicago "Loop". One of them was also Warshawsky & Sons, which eventually became J.C. Whitney. During that 2 years of college (when I still drove my "28 Model A coupe from high school) during lunch break, I'd often run 2 blocks over to Warshawskys to pick up something I needed for the Model A. Again, that near south side neighborhood of Chicago was full of small businesses related to the automotive industry. All sorts of "gizmos" for Model T's were made in that area of Chicago and I guess it stands to reason that J.C. Whitney would have originated there, including I'll bet, more than one brand of all those different aftermarket timers,....just sort of "reminiscing",....sorry,.....harold

As to how many different types - here are a couple of pictures of part of a private collection. front & back. these don't include the timers with attached cables. These are all different.

Here's one you may not have in your collections. I've always found that My T goes best with an Anderson, but the intercylinder timing goes wrong eventually - they are about 4 times as sensitive to being off-centre as a roller or brush, and the fit in the case (mine anyway) isn't too precise.
I have messed with them and added and subtracted thin plastic or paper washers to move contacts in and out, but it's a tedious job.

Here's my better (?) idea. External adjusters which will push each contact in. M3 nuts welded inside, locknuts outside and short lengths of M3 threaded rod with a slot in one end and a nylon insulator on the other. Push in the contacts that are 'late'.
Works for me.

Bill WOW!!
I have a bunch but nothing like that. Good idea on the display mounting.

Chris. Interesting idea. I never liked Anderson but the earlier ones were better than most of the new ones I've seen.

Brown Timer

Martynn, your spelling error spot was spot on. Go to the top of the class, but don't sit down. A word or two later I spotted your "boxes" rather than the correct box's.
AllAn, ex grade school techer, from down under.

Make that teacher!!!! That'll teach me to proof read.

AllAn from down under

Currently have over 50 timers of various style, and materials from steel ,cast iron,porcelain, pot metal, bakelite, all mounted in a line on the garage wall. Have most identified by mfg. Amazing the variety of mechanisms.

This is one I'm going to try when I get a chance. Invented by Thomas A Edison Jr.

It has very minimal use. I'm not sure if it was ever on an engine, I don't think so, must have been on a counter display or something.

Been running this timer for about 5 or 6 years now it works great

one more picture

That is the next one I was going to post!
Simple but well done!

Here’s one I’ve never seen before.

Mr Edison's effort looks ingenious and robust, but I wonder if the timing is very precise. Interesting that he provided a separate ground brush so that the ball bearing didn't carry the current.

GG Gregory....do you have a picture of the other side of this timer?

I was looking at some of my Ford Dealer magazines last night. Lots of "better ideas" for timers.
These are 24-26, I think the heyday for timers was a little earlier.

I've never seen a brown but its probably similar to a New Day.

VowellArt, yes I’ll post one of the other side tonight.

Chris, I would guess the Edison design is as accurate as any.
Timing is probably accurate enough for the coils.
At 1000 engine rpm the timer is rotating 500 times a minute, making 4 contacts on each rotation. 2000 contacts a minute. I don't think any of them stayed perfectly in time , especially since .020 on the timing gear cover would make two early and two late.

The no kick back one at the top; wouldn't it be kinda hard to get a kickback cranking on magneto! Cool collections being posted.

Without going back to look I think the date on it is 1922. Plus a LOT of T's had a battery but no starter. That's why there are two positions on the switch, even on early cars. So you could add a dry cell to power the coils even if you were hand cranking.

Here’s the other side of the Brown Timer that someone ask about. Much like the standard Ford timer except in Bakelite.

Chris Barker:
If you run electricity through a bearing, it can fail, due to sparking between the bearings and the races.
I used to do lightning strike inspections on aircraft, and that was one of the cautions. Evidence of a lightning strike on a flight control meant removal and close inspection of the bearings for any scorch, burn or weld marks, and replacement if any evidence was found.

I think that was the big improvement over some of the others that used a ball bearing. The Ecco that we were going to reproduce has a little brass wiper brush the runs on the side of the ball bearing that probably worked great as long as it was new. They were very well regarded timers but cost $3.50 which was a lot of money in the late teens or early twenties.

Here is the ECCO with the ball bearing roller. This is the one we were going to try to reproduce. Didn't work out. Too much money.

The lower one is not a New Day, the box just ended up in the photo. It is a Recto.

Regarding timing: Remember that when running on magneto, the ignition point is NOT set by the timer but by the magnets and coilring. They produce 16 potential sparks per revolution and the timer selects which of the 16 points are actually used. At least it is so for most timers. The ones like the Edison with its own kind of switches may be different depending on how long time they are actually closed.

Running on battery is another story.

You are absolutely right, but timers with ramps (e.g. Anderson) or perhaps the one with the eccentric bearing shown above can sometimes get so far out that cylinders fire on different magneto peaks!
You can also get cylinders switched on 'between' the magneto peaks.
My measurements on an Anderson show that 0.02" of timer offset from the cam axis changed the timing of the cylinders on that axis by +/- 9 crank degrees, about 4 times the effect one would get with a roller or brush.
The Edison may be OK as its design forces concentricity, until it wears.

Here's another one: a Ward's Dynamic Timer.

That's funny Chris. I just took some photos of one of those last night. Too busy today to post it. Hahahahahaha. It looks like a pretty good design to me. I think yours is in better condition than mine.