Field Coil Tape

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ryanf1023
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Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:52 pm

I've straightened and cleaned all of my ribbons for my field coil, and they've been sitting idle for a month now without tape.

I can't seem to find the 3M 361 tape by the roll, only the case. Does anyone know of retailers who will sell by the roll? And because the 1/4" width is not available, I've seen posts where people will put the roll on a lathe, and then slice off the desired thickness. Is there any reason why one couldn't get a width of say, 2" and cut that into three 1/2" and two 1/4" rolls?

On the contrary, is there a more cost effective alternative? I'm hoping to rebuild this once over the life of the T, and not have to worry about something failing years down the road, despite a significantly lower up front cost.


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:18 pm

Personally, I think it would be better to just order a rebuilt field coil from one of the suppliers. When I was doing the engine for my 23 runabout I was going to rebuild the field coil myself, but after considering the amount of time and effort that it would require I figured it would be cheaper and less hassle just to buy one already done. The price for a new one is, in my opinion, more than reasonable considering all that goes into rebuilding a field coil. The ones from the vendors are absolutely beautiful and will last a life time. Unless something comes apart in your engine or transmission and wipes the field coil out, you will never have to touch it again.

Stephen

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:43 pm

Damn the cost and time, some people like to do/try it them self. :D
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by John kuehn » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:43 pm

I agree with Stephen’s last post. For me I bought rebuilt field coils for my 3 T’s. I thought about redoing my first one after reading about it the Model T Ford restoration handbook but reconsidered the time and effort doing it.
I commend those that do it themselves! And also the folks who do it for the vendors. It’s well worth paying for a rebuilt coil. You have to remember those folks aren’t getting rich doing it and I’m glad they are doing it.
As far as the tape goes it’s come up before that you had to buy a box of it to get a roll. It wasn’t sold by the roll at that time.

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by CudaMan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:52 pm

Check with Steve Jelf, he is rebuilding a field coil right now and may be able to tell you where he got his tape. :)
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:23 pm

I don't know where you could get it in Alberta, however, in El Cajon Ca. is an electronics store. They had amphinol from which I cut out the backing for the coils and I got the tape. That was about 20 years ago, so I don't know whether they have it now. My neighbor's brother had a boat shop in San Diego and I got some boat resin from him. I rebuilt 3 coils and used 2 of them in my cars. I donated one to the local club where it was auctioned. I have had no problems with my cars. and have not heard of a problem from the one I donated. Since then, I have replaced a few, however, I bought them from the vendors already rebuilt. I agree with the above that the price is reasonable, but the experience was worthwhile to do it myself at least once.
Norm


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by DHort » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:26 pm



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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by jiminbartow » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:14 pm

I’m sure my next question is going the receive some ridicule by those incredulous that I even asked it :D , but is the tape so special that you couldn’t use some other cloth tape supplied by a place such as McMaster Carr or even a woven first aid cloth tape?

I recall when I was 16, I restored my original magneto coil in 1972. The badly deteriorated cloth tape wrapping the coils looked just like first aid gauze and being covered in several coats of Glyptal, it seems like the initial wrapping material could be any type of cloth tape. Back then, since I did not know any better and was short of money, resources, mentors and knowledgeable advisors, I soaked my magneto coil in successive baths of mineral spirits until all of the oil was removed and, after allowing the magneto coil ring to dry for a week, I coated the coils, which were bare in some places, with about four or five coats of red Glyptal. Though I was a novice, I was lucky and must have done something right, for that magneto worked flawlessly for 38 years until my next engine overhaul in 2010 when I replaced the magneto with one from Wally.

I’m just saying that, in my long ago case, it didn’t matter what type of cloth tape that was used, it’s the Glyptal that provides the real insulation. In my case, in several bare locations on the coils, where the wrapping was worn off, exposing the flat wire, Glyptal provided the only insulation. Jim Patrick

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:30 pm

I am using Kapton™ tape on the ribbons. 1 mil ¼" x 36 yd is $21.89 (shipping included) for two rolls on Amazon. It turned out that I needed a third roll to do all 32 individual coils (1915 double stack). It turns out that I have enough extra to wrap one side of each coil to keep it wound tight.
Screen Shot 2021-01-04 at 9.04.03 PM.png
For insulation between the two coils in each stack I got a 10-pack of 8" x 8" polyimide tape from the internet. I'm not finding the receipt, so I don't have the cost. It's from gizmodorks.com, but I probably ordered it through Amazon.

The big expense was three rolls of 7574A11 ½" x 18 yd fiberglass tape from McMasterCarr for $49.52 for the final wrapping. I haven't done that yet, so I don't know if three rolls will be enough.

The outside coating will be Sprayon EL-600 clear insulating varnish. Grainger had the best price.



IMG_5805 copy.JPG
¼" Kapton™ is a perfect fit on the ribbons. I put it on both sides, so there will be 2 mils of insulation between layers.

IMG_5803 copy.JPG
I tied the coils with wire to keep them from unwinding.

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Next was wrapping Kapton™ around the coil to keep it wound...
Last edited by Steve Jelf on Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:31 pm

IMG_5807 copy.JPG
...then I could cut off the wire.

IMG_5808 copy.JPG
I'm applying a polyimide sheet to both coils in each pair, so there will be 2 mils of insulation between them.

IMG_5809 copy.JPG
I trim off the excess leaving a little sticking out around the edges, and fold it down over the sides.

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The final step in this part is cutting out the center oval. Next will be soldering the coils together in pairs. Then final wrapping, coating with the clear insulating varnish, and installing on the coil ring. I've never done this before, and I have other things to do, so it's taking forever. That's OK. I'm not going anywhere until I get my shots. :)
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by jab35 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:51 pm

Ryan: I used McMaster-Carr p/n 7574a11 High temp fiberglass cloth with silicone adhesive. With all the work involved, I would not skimp on this part of the project. That tape is good for -100F to +500F and oil resistant. I split 1/2" width tape with a boxcutter blade attached to a guide laying the roll flat on a sawtable, if you have a lathe, that's good too. You will see other width fiberglass tapes on Mcmaster along with the one recommended. Do not use mylar tape, you need the cushion of the cloth between turns of the coil copper.

And I recommend Glyptal 1202 clear insulating varnish for sealing the finished assembly, that's brushed on liberally to saturate everything. I feel this product is best b/c you can cure at very low oven temp, 200 F for an hour, per manufacturer. After air drying for a couple days I used our kitchen electric oven, the oven curing varnish did not smell.

When you cut the insulating washers that go between the stator ring and coils, make them teardrop shape rather than the original oval. Use that extra 'tail' to give additional insulation where you solder the ends of coils together. It prevents any of those junctions from ever touching the cast iron ring. Mcmaster has fishpaper for this if you need it, I recommend the 0.020" thick fishpaper, it's tough to cut, I used a punch for the center hole.

When I assembled, I glued the fishpaper rings and coils to the stator individually with Glyptal, verified electrical function of each coil, soldered the coils in series, checked electrical function of the assembly and then painted liberally everything with Glyptal.

Have fun, jb


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:17 am

Thank you everyone for the suggestions and PMs.

Steve, it’s been said before l, but your dedication to taking photos for almost all you do is invaluable. Especially taking them at times when the work can get super frustrating.

I’m too far into this rebuild myself that I wouldn’t want to waste the work I’ve already done. And like others have said, it’s a nice thing to do atleast once. I’ve (hopefully!) got several decades of T-ing ahead of me, and getting the intimate understanding and hands on this early can only help me down the line.

I’ll look at the McMaster tape and Glyptal as suggested.


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by jiminbartow » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:35 am

Glyptal is an amazing high heat protective insulating coating that was developed by Thomas Edison and originally marketed under the label of General Electric (GE), which was one of Edisons’s companies. It is not only great for insulating the magneto and the windings of the generator and starter, but is also great for lining the interior of the engine. When I rebuilt my engine in 2010, as was recommended at the time by many senior MTFCA members, I coated the interior of my crank case and oil pan with Glyptal. The following thread details how I was able to heat cure the finish at 250 degrees F. for several hours in a conventional oven. One can easily heat treat a magneto coil in an oven. Jim Patrick

www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152476.html


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Original Smith » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:37 am

I'd check with RV. He does it all the time.


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:45 am

Regardless of what you use, if it works, and continues to work for many years, you have done a good job. It would, however, be very sad and labor intensive to go to all the work to rewind the coils and install the engine in the car, and then have it fail soon or possibly not work at all. Good luck to everyone who rewinds their own coils.
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:19 pm

Do not use mylar tape, you need the cushion of the cloth between turns of the coil copper.

After reading that I wondered what Ford used. I went out to the barn and got a damaged mag ring with some unwinding coils to take a look. The layers are separated by thin (.010") paper. The Kapton™ tape I'm using measures about .002". It's applied to both sides of the copper ribbon, so there's about .004" "cushion" between layers. Given the toughness of the tape, is that enough cushion? We shall see.
IMG_5811_1.JPG
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:02 pm

Norman K. raises a good point. There ought to be a way to check a newly rewound ring. I’m not a electrician but seems like you check for continuity and resistance. I’m sure Steve has that figured out!

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:19 pm

Don't be so sure, John. I'm an electronic dummy. :)
How many ohms should a single coil have? (About 6' of copper ribbon.) How about all 32 together? (About 192'.)
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:07 pm

You can't really check for short, however, you can check for continuity and for ground. Before you ground the end coil, check for continuity from the coils to the ring. Then check for continuity from one end to the other.
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by AndreFordT » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:59 am

As Norman said you can check for continiuty or short with an Ohm-meter. To be sure and check the working of the coil ring I only found one way to do it before you build it in an engine.
Preassemble your coil ring on the support and make a loop with a 12V battery, a 21W 12V light bulb and your coil ring. As the light lights up you have continiuty. With a compass, pass near to each coil and you should find North and South alternating. When, in front of a coil, the needle do not show N or S, this coil has a problem. With the double coils the problem could be an internal short or a mistake in the assemby of the coil.
This test can be done before you warp the coils with cotton or other tape, just be sure to insulate each coil well from the support. (I will try to find a photo)

As you install the coilring in your engine, before you install the transmission, just turn your engine by hand the speed you use to start the engine. With a ACVolt meter you should read about 2acV, the magneto tester can be used for it too. Final test should be done on a running engine.

Hope this help.
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by jab35 » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:10 am

I measured single stack copper ribbon at 3/16" x 0.013" about equivalent to 15 gauge round copper wire which has a published resistance of 3.184 Ohms per 1,000'. 192' would have 0.6113 Ohms resistance. If the double stack is different cross section, the resistance differs inversely with cross section area. Personally, I like Andre's approach to the entire process. jb

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by AndreFordT » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:12 am

Testing the working of the coil ring I do it this way.

- First I make the crankshaft fit right in the block.
- Before installing any other parts (rods, pistons,...) I install the ciol ring and the flywheel (with the right gap between the ring and the flywheel).
- Install an acVolt meter.
- Turn the crankshaft by hand with the speed you turn an engine for starting.
- At the same time, watch your V-meter. You should find about 2acV.
Now you are about sure the coil ring is working and the magnets are charged.

Turning the engine with an electric motor should be a better test but I am not at this state jet will be done in the future.

Good luck
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ABoer » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:14 am

I do it nearly the same as Andre' , but with an St.Louis magneto Tester .
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by John kuehn » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:47 am

Lots of good work in several posts about rebuilding the mag rings. These folks are doing a good job no doubt.
Which begs the question of how did Ford do it. To keep up with production they must have workers winding the individual coils by the hundreds and another group soldering and assembling them to the ring. Some time during the process they must have been tested.
When you have several groups building the rings it wouldn’t take to long I would think.
But one person doing it I don’t think so but what do I know!

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by AndreFordT » Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:29 am

John,
To rebuild the double round in the photos it took me a total of 28 hours. About half of the time was needed to clean and make the strips and all the other parts grease free. Making the insulating shields (5 for each coil) took about 2 hours. The time left was for making the 32 single coils and assembling the coil loop.
As I understand the model T history, the flywheel and the magneto coil ring were the first to be assembled on a small assembly line starting late 1910 early 1911.
They started with all clean parts. Insulating the strips was done on a tool aswell as making all the coils.
Making the new coil loops should take a lot of less time as I needed to rebuild mine.
After rebuilding my first coil ring I understand the price dealers are asking for the rebuild loops. It are not the parts but the labor that makes the price.

The reason why I tried to rebuild my own coil rings are the shipping price and the locak and income taxes here in Belgium.
The final price is about the double of the prices the dealers are asking.
The second reason was the challenge to repair my own coil ring.

Andre
Belgium


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 pm

I ordered from McMaster-Carr on Tuesday. They processed my payment Wednesday. They arrived today, Thursday morning. Unbelievable. I was weary about McMaster-Carr's willingness to ship to Canada, but I went ahead on a whim and there was no issue.
2021 01 07 tape.jpg
Barring the high courier cost and exchange rate, the six rolls of tape cost US$56.72.

I've 36 yards of 1/2" tape and 72 yards of 1/4" tape. Hoping to get a mandrel built within the week and get on with this job.

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:17 am

IMG_5820 copy.JPG
Today I wrapped sixteen double coils with that ½" tape. I used a little under 19 yards, so you have plenty.
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:24 am

Good to know, thanks Steve. Did you have any problems with inconsistent length of ribbon while winding? I know the RH and LH winding, but I worry that the tail of the ribbon will be at the wrong side to connect to the next coil. Nothing a simple trim wouldn’t fix? I’m not sure how the double coils compares to the singles

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by AndreFordT » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:46 am

Ryan,

What is important by the double coils is that you make all 16 double coils the same. You will get the left and right winding by alternating the windings as you asemble your loop by facing the ends of each coil ones up and the next down.

By the single coil coilring you have to make 8 left and 8 right coils. Easy to do this by making the inner connection strip facing to you and for the other direction the strip should face the other way.

The mandrel in the photos is working for me for more than 10 years and is easy to use and a copy of the picture I found in the MTFCA electric book.

Good luck
Andre
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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:21 pm

Thanks Andre.

I've watched the Model T Tips video several times now, very helpful. I'm wondering if the ribbons need to be surgically clean. The fellow in the video looks to do a fairly quick pass and then puts the tape on. I was quite deliberate going up and down the ribbon with my wheel, and they've been sitting exposed in the garage for almost a month now. I figure as long as the conductivity is good, then barring any glaring debris I should be good.

I'm also following the other thread re: soldering and flux, which is where my concern lies. If the copper is not super clean prior to insulation, can it rust from within over time?

This is a sample of my ribbons. Anything dark there I could rub off with my fingernail, which I can easily do as I tape the ribbon
2021 01 09 ribbon sample.jpg

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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by AndreFordT » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:08 am

Ryan,
The copper strips should be clean and grease free so the glue on your insulating tape get a good connection with the strips.
Clean copper strips make the soldering easier. You don't need anything else than a good iron and good electric solder lead.
To get my copper strips grease free I use ACETON.

Don't worry about the copper rusting. A few hours after you clean the strips, the oxidation of the copper has already started.
Best is to clean and insulate at the same time.
After assembling the coil ring get a good coating on the assembly and make it dry well. It will seal the copper from the air.
In the engine, the coil ring is sitting and is soaked in oil. No oxidation here.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium


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Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by nickd4778 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:45 pm

what is the exact tape you ordered. I went on the site and it gives a whole bunch.

Thanks
Nick
ryanf1023 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 pm
I ordered from McMaster-Carr on Tuesday. They processed my payment Wednesday. They arrived today, Thursday morning. Unbelievable. I was weary about McMaster-Carr's willingness to ship to Canada, but I went ahead on a whim and there was no issue.

2021 01 07 tape.jpg

Barring the high courier cost and exchange rate, the six rolls of tape cost US$56.72.

I've 36 yards of 1/2" tape and 72 yards of 1/4" tape. Hoping to get a mandrel built within the week and get on with this job.


Topic author
ryanf1023
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm
First Name: Ryan
Last Name: Fenrich
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster Project
Location: Edmonton

Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:39 pm

nickd4778 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:45 pm
what is the exact tape you ordered. I went on the site and it gives a whole bunch.

Thanks
Nick
ryanf1023 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 pm
I ordered from McMaster-Carr on Tuesday. They processed my payment Wednesday. They arrived today, Thursday morning. Unbelievable. I was weary about McMaster-Carr's willingness to ship to Canada, but I went ahead on a whim and there was no issue.

2021 01 07 tape.jpg

Barring the high courier cost and exchange rate, the six rolls of tape cost US$56.72.

I've 36 yards of 1/2" tape and 72 yards of 1/4" tape. Hoping to get a mandrel built within the week and get on with this job.
Hi Nick,

I’ll check for you when I get home later


Topic author
ryanf1023
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm
First Name: Ryan
Last Name: Fenrich
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster Project
Location: Edmonton

Re: Field Coil Tape

Post by ryanf1023 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:57 pm

I bought the High-Strength Fiberglass Electrical Tape with silicone adhesive. Product #'s 7574A35 and 7574A11

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