1926 Ford Model T modification

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4banger1988
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1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by 4banger1988 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:29 pm

Hi

I wanted to do some research before I start.
Since I found a metal plate in the oil pan, it probably came from the magneto ignition between the engine and the transmission.
Now I want to take out my motor and remove this complete rotor with the metal plates and convert everything to 12 volts.
That means I just have to
Install 12 volt alternator, lamps and so-called oil slingers.
Is it correct that way?
or do you have other ideas?
Of course, replace the 6 volt battery with a 12 volt one.
All other components can withstand 12 volts?
greetz patrick

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George House
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by George House » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:03 pm

Some will say you need a starter motor wired for 12 volts. Others will say you can use your original starter. If using original starter motor, I’d caution you to use a bendix spring above the starter hooked to the cable and starter terminal. I do.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Allan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:13 pm

Patrick, my 'other idea' is to leave it all 6 volt and save yourself a heap of work, but I do not know what is driving your idea. Just two of my collection of T's are 12 volt. Both of them are veterans which do not have starters and generators, so the 12 volt batteries are just used for ignition.

Allan from down under.


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Jimmie » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:05 pm

I noted the reply about converting a model t to 12volts and connecting a bending spring in series between the 12V battery and the 6V starter! My question is why? Does it create a voltage reduction to make it easier on the lower voltage starter? I am nearly done building a 1919 roadster basket case and put in a12 alternator and a volt meter in the interment panel, but left the starter a 6V. How much voltage drop does the spring create? Jim


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:14 pm

You didn't say whether the magneto worked before you found the problem. If it did, You could pull it down and examine the coil ring and if still good, replace the brass screw and keeper. However, to do the best job would be to remove all magnets and check for cracks and replace any cracked ones with others of the same polarity. Then recharge all the magnets and check the level of magnets to the flywheel and adjust to same height. Then re-adjust the magneto clearance from the ring. At the same time check the end play of the crankshaft and repair any other transmission and engine troubles.
Now to go to your questions concerning converting to 12 volts. If you do, all light bulbs must be changed to 12 volt and even a battery horn if you have one. The generator will actually charge a 12 volt battery, however will not put out as strong a charge as one wired for 12 volts. Many cars which break down on tours have problems with alternators. Those alternators were intended to be belt driven with a fan behind the pulley. Unfortunately converting to gear drive is usually the problem with alternators. They either run too hot or the gear comes off or some such problem. The best thing to do with the starter would be to replace with one wound for 12 volts. The starter spring on the cable connection will not lower the voltage when the starter starts to spin and will still hit the flywheel with full force. It only regulates impedance when the when under power turning the engine. By then the damage will have already been done. It would be even more important with 12 volts on a 6 volt starter to be SURE the parking brake is ALWAYS in neutral when you apply the starter. Even then it could cause damage. Best to rewind the starter.
Another very good alternate to 12 volt would be to buy a 6 volt distributor and coil. These will give you just as hot a spark as a 12 volt distributor and coil, but would be the only thing you need to change if you remove the magneto. Also whether you go to 6 or 12, if you remove the magnets, you will need some slingers to pump the oil. Otherwise, the front end of the engine will not receive enough oil and will wear out much faster.
Norm

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Tim Rogers
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Tim Rogers » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:24 pm

Patrick- don't let that plate scare you! Keep in mind that a 12 volt conversion is not an "upgrade" and isn't trouble free. I would just repair whatever is wrong and continue using the excellent original ignition system...
<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>

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George House
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by George House » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:35 am

Jimmie,... I use unserviceable bendix springs as explained and you understood todrop the voltage to the starter motor to 7.5-8.3 volts. This saves the starter armature, ring gear and bendix drive from damage. But I also agree the 6 volt original design is excellent
Last edited by George House on Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:46 pm

My 1926 came with an 8 volt battery.

The starter Bendix spring broke a few months after I got it.

By then, I had been driving my 1927 for 20 years with a 6 volt battery and no starter problems.


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Jimmie » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:08 am

Hi, everyone,
I am a bit new to the forum, but am enjoying the chatter. I have learned several good tips and tricks. Hopefully, I will be able to some!
I have a 26 Tudor and a 1919 roadster (basket case) ready to hit the road this spring. The starter talk has been good! Does anyone know what the amp draw of a 6V starter is on a 6V battery? Just curious! By the way I am Jimmie Rodgers, Big Rapids, MI.


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4banger1988
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by 4banger1988 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:00 pm

So
Now
first of all thanks for the many tips
specifically Norman
It is so
Since a metal has already fallen off and I already operate the Model T with a newer 6 volt distributor with 6 volt ignition coil, and the magneto ignition box was not included when I bought it, I thought it would be best to completely remove it and only use Oil Slingers to use for stirring the oil, can I do that?
My battery should still be charged by my old alternator! How do I solve this problem?
Can someone send me a picture of what I can remove during the renovation? But I can take a picture tomorrow.
What else I wanted to ask
Would you also replace the 3 brake drums of the gearbox? Or do you just have to measure them? What size do they have to be?
Because I still have the problem that first gear slips
greetz patrick


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4banger1988
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by 4banger1988 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:01 pm

I would of course leave it as it is as much as possible

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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:23 pm

Would you also replace the 3 brake drums of the gearbox?

There is only one brake drum in the transmission. In front of it are the low drum and the reverse drum. All of them are 7½". I don't know why you would need to measure them, but it's good to inspect them closely for cracks or other damage. While you're doing that you can look at the band linings and see if they're worn enough to be replaced. The most likely cure for the slipping low is simply an adjustment. See ¶524 on page 134 in the service manual. When fully depressed the low pedal should be at least 1" from the floor board.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by jab35 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 pm

Jimmie: There's info in this older post regarding your question, http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1337040880

and the short answer here: "Assuming the starting motor is operating properly on 6 volts it should draw 70 amps free running, 150-160 Amps cranking engine and 450 Amps stalled pushing 12 pounds of torque.
Model T battery cables should be 1/0 with soldered (not crimped) wire terminals.
Ron the Coilman" From Ron Patterson, google his name and an electrical item for the Model T and you will find a lot of documented technical content. Welcome to the Forum, jb


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Jimmie » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:01 pm

Thanks for the info! Good stuff. I am reasonably savvy with Batteries and Staters from farm tractors in Michigan winters. I made sure I had good heavy duty cables with soldered connectors. I plan to put some resistance ahead of the starter. This will help me with my calculations. Thanks again!
Jim


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:12 pm

The problem with a bendix spring in series with the starter is that it only drops the voltage under load. When you first hit the starter switch, there is very little load until it hits the flywheel. Then the load increases with the resistance of pulling the flywheel around to start the engine. Unfortunately, the damage occurs when the starter first hits the flywheel with a thud. Only satisfactory solution to a 12 volt battery pushing the starter would be to replace with a starter wound for 12 volts. Unless you are planning to use 12 volt accessaries a 6 volt distributor would be a better choice.
Norm


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:14 pm

The problem with a bendix spring in series with the starter is that it only drops the voltage under load. When you first hit the starter switch, there is very little load until it hits the flywheel. Then the load increases with the resistance of pulling the flywheel around to start the engine. Unfortunately, the damage occurs when the starter first hits the flywheel with a thud. Only satisfactory solution to a 12 volt battery pushing the starter would be to replace with a starter wound for 12 volts. Unless you are planning to use 12 volt accessaries a 6 volt distributor would be a better choice.
Norm


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4banger1988
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by 4banger1988 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:20 am

Image
Image


Hi

I have now removed the engine and gearbox.
I decided to allow everything to 6 volts and to remove the magneto ignition, which I no longer need, and to replace it with Oil Slingers.
I hope you can see the two uploaded pictures?
The red arrows point to the components that I have to remove, right?
but where the blue arrow points this plate must stay ??
I have now removed everything and would like to take a look at the transmission. The engine was already running and quite well
Now my question, what would you do all new in this context?
The drums (brake, backwards and forwards) already have strong screams and bumps.

What else would be my idea! That I add a 12 volt battery only for the starter, because the 6 volt turns the engine very slowly.
is that possible without problems?

greetz patrick

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George House
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by George House » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:00 am

Gut morgen Patrick, the 16 coils stay with the circular bracket. Simply remove the 4 bolts holding this unit - called the mag field coil. Yes, the magnets and ‘thimbles’ should be removed if you’re using slingers.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪


Topic author
4banger1988
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by 4banger1988 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:29 pm

OK

Does the Mag field coil stay on?
or also with away?
because the magnets and coils are no longer needed, right?

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George House
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by George House » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:22 pm

Correct... the entire circular assembly - the mag field coil - is removed. The 16 wrapped coils stays with the circular iron unit.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:44 pm

You really need a new starter ring gear!!!


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4banger1988
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by 4banger1988 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:30 pm

OK
Many Thanks
then I will first know

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TRDxB2
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:06 pm

I decided to allow everything to 6 volts and to remove the magneto ignition, which I no longer need, and to replace it with Oil Slingers.

What else would be my idea! That I add a 12 volt battery only for the starter, because the 6 volt turns the engine very slowly.
is that possible without problems?

greetz patrick
[/quote]
What amp size 6volt battery do you have - didn't see it mentioned. If proper size then I'd have the starter checked out and/or rebuilt. Some have two 6 volt Optima red cap batteries hooked up in series resulting in 2 circuits, 6 volt for ignition and 12 volts for starter. Lights can then me added to 6v or 12v as desired.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Jeff Hood » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:14 pm

The original Model T starter does turn the engine slowly. It's OK, it will start the engine just fine. High speed cranking is not necessary.


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by dbuelke » Mon May 24, 2021 3:24 pm

Jimmie wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:08 am
Hi, everyone,
I am a bit new to the forum, but am enjoying the chatter. I have learned several good tips and tricks. Hopefully, I will be able to some!
I have a 26 Tudor and a 1919 roadster (basket case) ready to hit the road this spring. The starter talk has been good! Does anyone know what the amp draw of a 6V starter is on a 6V battery? Just curious! By the way I am Jimmie Rodgers, Big Rapids, MI.
I just installed a new battery on my 26 Coupe and was wondering the same thing so I clamped an amp meter on the + cable near the battery and it read 14 amps peak. I was trying to comprehend the interplay of what size battery cable should be used, the battery reserve for extended cold weather or problem starts, and the life of the battery. I also installed new 2/0 copper cables and with a series of crankings while doing compression testing everything seemed copacetic. No warming of the cable and vigorous cranking start to finish. I still don't know how many crankings over years wear a battery out, but the one I replaced went dead-dead after only 11 years! I had it on a Battery Tender at all times when not running. Just some more useless information. :lol:


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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Norman Kling » Mon May 24, 2021 4:18 pm

Three things will shorten the life of the battery. One is overcharging. 14 amps is enough to charge with the lights on, so if you leave it set at 14 just drive without lights for a few minutes after starting, then switch the lights on. Most people who drive mainly during daytime hours, set the generator to charge between 2 and 5 amps, depending on how far and how often the car is driven. 14 amps will overcharge the battery.
Another thing which will shorten the life of the battery is letting it go completely dead. It should be kept completely charged, but not overcharged.
The third thing which will shorten the life of the battery is letting the fluid boil out. It should be kept above the plates and replenished with distilled water.
Norm

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Fordwright
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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Fordwright » Mon May 24, 2021 8:44 pm

Ammeters are fine for seeing how much current is flowing back and forth, but a voltmeter will help you a lot more in protecting your battery.
You wouldn't have to modify the instrument panel at all, just run a wire to a convenient place where you can mount a voltmeter.

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Re: 1926 Ford Model T modification

Post by Novice » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:51 pm

Observation. I have a 26 touring with the magneto removed. which means it has about 40 lbs less of fly wheel weight + or - ? It tends to rev faster than Ts with magneto when shifting between 1st and high. However it stalls very easily and You need to keep engine at higher rpm to prevent stalling. and it still stalls sometimes. My 26 open express with original magneto never stalls even when starting at low rpm. Model T engine was designed to operate with magneto mass and when You remove it engine performance changes. Torque at low engine speed seems to be reduced ?

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