Gas line for the purist

[Dropacent]

Rummaging today for another project and I came across this original model t ford gas line. It is seamed brass tubing, hot tin dipped. NOT PLATED ! For anyone that cares, I think this could be easily replicated starting with copper/nickel brake line stock now available. ( Cu/Ni brake line)

[slang250]

I got some information off of a 26-27 drawing on fuel lines.

They said Ford would except either Brass seamless tubing or wrapped and sweated brass tubing. The wrapped and sweated tubing also had to be able to hold 10lbs of pressure after being bent to shape.

What the drawing doesn't tell me though is how many gas lines were brass seamless vs brass with a seam. And it also doesn't say if the brass seamless tubing was just bare brass or not.

Thank You Steve

[Dropacent]

Thanks Steve, a question re/ your drawing. Is this for the cowl tank and/or both? Does it show a change date? Here is a closer look at the seam. Considering the number of these that were made, I would question perhaps this original tubing was rolled , formed and tinned in one operation, sealing the seam that way.

[slang250]

I didn't get the change of notice cards when I went to Ford on the fuel lines. Fords drawings also doesn't say how the tube was formed.

What I saw was more of a brief description on what the material was and how it was bent to shape and also the note on checking the seamed tubes with pressure.

Thank You Steve

[Ken Buhler]

Mine is two full wraps of brass with a full solder coat on the exterior and covering the seam but does not appear to have any between layers or inside.
Ken Buhler

[Kevin Pharis]

Sounds kinda like “Bundy” tube...

[jiminbartow]

Years ago, I recall several threads on the forum about how copper tubing is unsafe to use on fuel lines due to stress fractures causing fuel leaks. If I remember correctly, stainless steel brake line tubing was determined to be the best and safest way to go to use as a fuel line to prevent the stress fractures that can cause fires. I did a search and was able to find the thread. Jim Patrick
Not for the purist, but much safer than the original fuel lines used 90 to 100 years ago and that is something to consider, especially where fuel leaks and fires are a possibility.
See: www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/116133.html

[Dropacent]

Bundy tube is copper coated steel. I guess my point here is being missed. I’m not advocating using seamed tubing of any type, copper, steel,brass or ? I’m not advocating using copper tubing, which I agree is not safe.
What I’m suggesting is to use copper/nickel brake line. It’s seamless, will never fracture, easily bent, can have the famous seam easily applied mechanically . It can be polished to look like brass, or tinned in a matter to look just like the original. The original is not a smooth tin plating, it is a coarse looking coating created by running through molten tin.
Some people care about details. Some people want space age solutions, and Jimmy cracked corn.......

[Original Smith]

Interesting subject. Since we aren't dealing with pressure, I'd say we are pretty safe! I'm lucky, I have a couple of NOS gas lines, and have an original on my 1925 that works fine. As I have mentioned many times, I have a 1913 that I've owned for over 60 years. I started restoring it as a teenager, and put a copper gas line on it. It is still on the car today with over 57,000 miles. I've never had a problem with it.

[jiminbartow]

Agreed. There is no pressure, but the excessive vibration occurring at the tubing joint connections over time, should not be ignored or discounted, but the purpose of the forum is to provide members of as many facts as possible so the reader can make a determination and choose which choice fits their situation best. We’re all grown men and each of us are capable of assessing the chances of a tragedy occurring to them. My concern is for the safety of all members, their Model T’s, the structure in which the Model T is housed along with family members that may be affected, for just one fire or tragedy among tens of thousands of Members is one too many. Everyone please stay safe and have a Happy and safe New Year. Jim Patrick

PS. Sorry for being a little too passionate on safety. It’s a habit that is hard to break after 37 years as the Safety Director for a Railcar Repair Company.

[Adam]

I have a 1913 that I've owned for over 60 years. I started restoring it as a teenager, and put a copper gas line on it. It is still on the car today with over 57,000 miles. I've never had a problem with it.

I Agree!

I also have many thousands of miles on my T’s with copper fuel lines and have had zero issues. I’ve installed many more and have had zero issues. It’s not magic, just correct installation procedures and good material.

[Quickm007]

I have a 1913 that I've owned for over 60 years. I started restoring it as a teenager, and put a copper gas line on it. It is still on the car today with over 57,000 miles. I've never had a problem with it.

I Agree!

I also have many thousands of miles on my T’s with copper fuel lines and have had zero issues. I’ve installed many more and have had zero issues. It’s not magic, just correct installation procedures and good material.

Ouf! I just installed a copper gas line Monday on my 1914... Thank you Larry and Adam, I feel better now

[StanHowe]

There is a lot of difference between the commonly available copper tubing sold in hardware stores today, most of which comes from China and probably has little copper in it and is so thin you can practically stick your fingernail through it --- and the copper tubing sold years back that was American made and is heavy and soft. That tubing today is called refrigeration grade tubing. I got lucky a few years ago and scored a box at an auction full of copper tubing, all old, American made and thick walled. I would not hesitate to use it on my own cars. Your mileage may vary.

Using brake line requires conversion fittings from the 1/8 NPT fittings used on T carbs, tank, etc to the 7/16 -24 straight thread fittings on the brake line. Some smaller line uses 3/8 - 24 or 5/16 - 24 straight fittings which are to be used with flared ends on the tubing.

Or you can cut the fittings off and use compression fittings on brake line.

[Dropacent]

1/4” O.D. Cu/Ni tubing needs no fittings other than the original ford ones, Stan. A $100 roll will make up about 25 fuel lines. Then it’s on Lizzie for many lifetimes

[Allan]

I am spoiled for fuel line material. My dad worked for the British Tube Mills in Adelaide. They had a special division making Bundy tubing and them fabricating preformed lines for fuel and brakes for the car industry. I have more than a lifetime's supply in a range of sizes, so steel Bundy tubing is used on all my cars.
I doubt it is Zinc plated. My gut feeling is the plating has a high percentage of tin, as solder has. This makes for a softer coating which is less likely to crack, especially when forming nipple ends on brake lines. It will also allow a softer seal when the fittings are tightened. I believe the original brass fuel lines Henry used were tinned rather than zinc plated.
I could be wrong again.

Allan from down under.

[StanHowe]

Tim, go to the typical small town auto parts store and try to buy a 100 foot roll. First of all they probably won't have a clue what you are talking about and second, how many people need a 100 foot roll??

There are a lot of ways to work on old cars. We all know some of them but nobody knows them all. I have put brake lines on a lot of vehicles, not just Model T's as fuel line as well as brake lines -- Willys pickups, Antique cars, vintage tractors, you name it. I have seen more than one person try to screw the pre-made 7/16 x 24 brake line fittings into a 1/8 NPT female carburetor or brake wheel cylinder.

I'm just trying to help. Sorry.

[Quickm007]

Stan, I thought I will removed the copper tubing and replaced by the one I bought at Lang's and following your advice. I have some doubts by now...

[Dropacent]

My first post was ; Gas line for the purist. There are some guys that really like things down to the last detail. $5 each in accurate looking material I thought would interest the lurkers that actually manufacture these needed T parts, OR perhaps the doityourselfers that may be interested, OR the bling bling guys that want polished “brass”gas lines. My bad, sorry, Stan.

[DanTreace]

Likely will get flack, as proponents of thin wall copper 1/4" tubing are among T owners. But just because you haven't had a failure, the term may not be up yet on your copper tubing

Most times, the copper tubing is installed with the compression sleeve, into the Ford carb inlet. That type of fitting is too rigid for the twists and vibrations the long fuel line will have, as the T flexes and pitches on driving.


Here is an example of a copper line failure on a recent tour. The owner found out when parked, the carb was leaking profusely. This is the piece that was fractured away. The copper tubing just had too much fatigue.

The better choice is brass or steel tubing line. As for the compression sleeve, Ford used felt, but modern neoprene fuel line provides a superior compression sleeve.

[Jeff Hood]

Larry is a purist and is probably using original felt packings. The felt will absorb vibration and allow slight movement. He is also using "good" copper line from 60 years ago. Compression fittings hold the line rigid and vibration and movement will certainly cause work hardening and cracking. I have also had copper outside oil lines break off at the compression fittings. I use steel brake line available at any auto parts store. If the sediment bulb shut-off is seized (the usually are) and there are no leaks or seepage, I use a pipe thread to flare fitting adapter at the tank and a short piece of rubber fuel hose near the carb, usually hidden inside the frame behind the pan ear. The hose absorbs any flex or vibration. I also use a modern, leak-free, fuel shut-off valve at the carb where it is easily accessible. If the sediment bulb is "sweating" or leaking, I eliminate it altogether with a nipple, tee, another nipple, and a drain valve. The nipple below the tee acts as the sediment catcher. I have "leak free" and "sweat free" fuel systems on all of my T's, and nobody at the local cars and coffee can even see it or knows or cares if it came from the factory that way, and my garage doesn't smell like gas!

[StanHowe]

Yup!

However you cannot post a post of only 4 characters so this sentence is to follow a rule somebody made that you have to post a comment with at least ten characters or it will not allow you to post it on this forum for some reason I'd don't know or understand but this sentence should be long enough to satisfy the requirement that you have to post a comment with at least ten characters in the comment.

I don't make the rules.

Your message contains 4 characters.
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[Allan]

Unless modifications are made, compression fittings should never be used on T's. They require two machined surfaces to accurately pinch the fitting to a firm fit on the tube. The brass outlet on the sediment bulb and the elbow at the carburetor are castings. While the threads are machined, the ends of the castings are not. Tightening the packnuts will compress the acorn onto the tube for a god seal, but the acorn will not necessarily seal on the cast end of the fittings, resulting often in over tightening to try to get that seal.
The short length of modern neoprene fuel line makes an admirable seal using the original packnuts on original fittings, leaving a joint which can tolerate flexing/twisting.

Allan from down under.