Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
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Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
A month ago I bought a 1914 touring car. It has some modifications, one of which is a 1919 (I think) motor with generator & starter. It is an older restoration that has been sitting for some years.
The previous own used a water soluble oil in the radiator and the water drained out clear. As one of the things needed to get this car ready to drive, I thought the radiator hoses ought to be changed. The top one was so hard I had to carve it off with a knife. The bottom two were fine and will go into the spares box. The water outlet had a rusted out portion and a new one has been ordered.
All the hoses & the brass down tube were clean inside, very little sign of rust. I have three drives in the car, one 30-40 minutes with temps in the mid 40s. The car ran cool, I had no reason to suspect trouble.
I went to clean everything up to get ready to reinstall the bits and felt inside the lower radiator hose outlet. My finger found a layer of oily rusty sediment. I got out as much as I could and scraped it off my hand into a container. The block inside the water inlet outlet had some also but not as much as in the radiator.
My hand was very messy after this and the old reliable Go-Jo would not clean it off! Paint thinner cut it and cleaned up the mess.
The question now is what to do about it? A traditional back flush with a hose is not likely to make any headway. Will regular fast flush cut this stuff? If not, what will? A pal suggested vinegar.
The car is drivable in winter weather as it is but I would like to get it ready for the summer heat which is just around the corner.
The previous own used a water soluble oil in the radiator and the water drained out clear. As one of the things needed to get this car ready to drive, I thought the radiator hoses ought to be changed. The top one was so hard I had to carve it off with a knife. The bottom two were fine and will go into the spares box. The water outlet had a rusted out portion and a new one has been ordered.
All the hoses & the brass down tube were clean inside, very little sign of rust. I have three drives in the car, one 30-40 minutes with temps in the mid 40s. The car ran cool, I had no reason to suspect trouble.
I went to clean everything up to get ready to reinstall the bits and felt inside the lower radiator hose outlet. My finger found a layer of oily rusty sediment. I got out as much as I could and scraped it off my hand into a container. The block inside the water inlet outlet had some also but not as much as in the radiator.
My hand was very messy after this and the old reliable Go-Jo would not clean it off! Paint thinner cut it and cleaned up the mess.
The question now is what to do about it? A traditional back flush with a hose is not likely to make any headway. Will regular fast flush cut this stuff? If not, what will? A pal suggested vinegar.
The car is drivable in winter weather as it is but I would like to get it ready for the summer heat which is just around the corner.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Here are the pics of the oily paste which did not load the first time.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Scrape out as much as you can right now. Then put it back together and see how it performs in warm weather. Oh, also use antifreeze. Although some will disagree, I think what you have is what's to be expected with water soluble oil.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Frankly, as long as it's "all apart", take the radiator into a reliable radiator shop and have it flushed out. Even with brass radiators, a good shop can get the core cleaned out with little to no effect on the brass. You may be glad you did. Strange as it may sound, maybe you should literally soak the engine interior in good ol' lacquer thinner, if it took paint thinner to get it off your hands. Man that is a mess. The lacquer thinner should dissolve it, you may then want to give it a vinegar flush. Regardless, the nice thing about
lacquer thinner, is it won't leave any residue inside the engine...it'll all vaporize away quite readily. If it were mine, this is what I would do. Two gallons will be more than enough.
lacquer thinner, is it won't leave any residue inside the engine...it'll all vaporize away quite readily. If it were mine, this is what I would do. Two gallons will be more than enough.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Have you checked the oil in the crankcase? Sometimes a head gasket leak or a crack which allows water into the cylinders can cause an oily goo. If the oil appears to have something like the water has, that might be your case. It can also cause water or steam to come out in the exhaust. Hopefully,it is only the soluble oil causing the problem.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
It looks like stop-leak to me. I bought a car a couple years ago that had some pretty nasty antifreeze in it with oily stuff floating on top. The top hose was hard, wrinkled, and shrunken, probably from whatever the oil was staying near the top when the engine was cool. The car had a newer radiator on it. What I think happened is that the previous owner likely drained his antifreeze into an unclean drain pan that had some gas & oil residue in it. He may have changed the radiator and dumped that soup back in, ran it for a couple years then parked it for a few more.
Please avoid using anything acidic to clean the cooling system. The engine block is around 100 years old. The cast iron is porous and neutralizing the acid that gets impregnated into old grey-iron isn’t as simple as putting some sort of base in it & rinsing. The potential damage will never be immediate, but if you plan on keeping your T more than 20 years, it’s a potential issue.
Please avoid using anything acidic to clean the cooling system. The engine block is around 100 years old. The cast iron is porous and neutralizing the acid that gets impregnated into old grey-iron isn’t as simple as putting some sort of base in it & rinsing. The potential damage will never be immediate, but if you plan on keeping your T more than 20 years, it’s a potential issue.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Some good food for thought here.
I drained the oil the day after I got the car and before I got it running. The oil was somewhat dark but still very oily. No signs of water contamination. I had a look inside the transmission and all looked good in there. My '23 runabout had a head gasket issue some years ago that I discovered when looking in the trans door to find a light grey paste coating everything and rust under that.
What is acid? Is Prestone Fast Flush an acid? I believe vinegar is an acid.
I drained the oil the day after I got the car and before I got it running. The oil was somewhat dark but still very oily. No signs of water contamination. I had a look inside the transmission and all looked good in there. My '23 runabout had a head gasket issue some years ago that I discovered when looking in the trans door to find a light grey paste coating everything and rust under that.
What is acid? Is Prestone Fast Flush an acid? I believe vinegar is an acid.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Anything specifically sold for cleaning cooling systems will likely be just fine to use. Avoid vinegar, muriatic acid, and products not meant for cooling systems.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Paul, you have a perfect sample in your container to use to find a solvent for that crud that's inside your block. There's a couple of safe first choices but may be just a waste of time if they don't dissolve your globs... The normal heavy duty rad cleaner like Prestone, I know guys that have had great results with a new one made by EvapoRust that made is specifically for radiators. You can leave that one in for extended periods of time without damage. I haven't tried it but if it's anything like their rust dissolver or half as good it's a Great product.
I believe your goop might need something more aggressive to dissolve the mess. The paint thinner or Lacquer thinner sounds like it might be great for this one! I'm not a fan of Water soluable oil. Maybe somebody added something they thought was the proper oil or the other comment of a stop leak treatment may have been used. I don't know any modern cars or trucks that use it today. You should check your radiator, it must also be bad?
We have a super coolant now available at most auto parts stores. The Green Conventional antifreeze that will protect against rusting and corrosion and also is a good coolant. Just mix 50 / 50. I suggest you use that after you get everything cleaned out.
Good Luck and please let us know what works for you
I believe your goop might need something more aggressive to dissolve the mess. The paint thinner or Lacquer thinner sounds like it might be great for this one! I'm not a fan of Water soluable oil. Maybe somebody added something they thought was the proper oil or the other comment of a stop leak treatment may have been used. I don't know any modern cars or trucks that use it today. You should check your radiator, it must also be bad?
We have a super coolant now available at most auto parts stores. The Green Conventional antifreeze that will protect against rusting and corrosion and also is a good coolant. Just mix 50 / 50. I suggest you use that after you get everything cleaned out.
Good Luck and please let us know what works for you
1912 Torpedo Roadster
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Hi Gene, I had in mind trying a sample of the muck to see what works. I know paint thinner does the job, we'll see about the Fast Flush. That EvapoRust sounds like it might be worth a try if it can hack the oily part.
The radiator is a flat tube and so it is not original. It looks great & works fine in the winter. I can only hope it will be OK, new ones are spendy.
On your advice some years ago I stopped using water soluble oil and started using a pre-mix anti-freeze. In SoCal the anti-freeze bit didn't matter. It sure will here! My experience with it has been 100% positive. The '23 Runabout never gets hot & there is no sign of any rust.
We have a weather window right now that has me chomping at the bit to get the car on the road so I can try out the work done over the last few weeks. These mid 40° highs can't last! I may put it together "temporarily" to take advantage of the opportunity to get out & enjoy driving the car.
The radiator is a flat tube and so it is not original. It looks great & works fine in the winter. I can only hope it will be OK, new ones are spendy.
On your advice some years ago I stopped using water soluble oil and started using a pre-mix anti-freeze. In SoCal the anti-freeze bit didn't matter. It sure will here! My experience with it has been 100% positive. The '23 Runabout never gets hot & there is no sign of any rust.
We have a weather window right now that has me chomping at the bit to get the car on the road so I can try out the work done over the last few weeks. These mid 40° highs can't last! I may put it together "temporarily" to take advantage of the opportunity to get out & enjoy driving the car.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Vinegar is diluted glacial acetic acid. Do not use that like Adam states.
You could try a mix of isopropyl alcohol and water with your muck and see if that mixes at all. Stir it up in a cup, not in your cooling system.
Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol or ethyl alcohol. The isopropyl might work better.
You could try a mix of isopropyl alcohol and water with your muck and see if that mixes at all. Stir it up in a cup, not in your cooling system.
Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol or ethyl alcohol. The isopropyl might work better.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I do not recommend this, but I had an experience about 60 years ago which was quite interesting. I had a 31 Model A Phaeton at the time. I had some goop in the cooling system so I poured in some Laundry detergent and ran it until hot. Then drained. I flushed it with tap water for quite a while with the drain valve open. Then I closed the valve and filled with water. For a couple weeks every time I drove it soap bubbles came out when it warmed up. People called it, "Laurance Welk's Bubble Machine!"
Anyway, don't try it. Anything you put in is very hard to completely rinse out.
Norm
Anyway, don't try it. Anything you put in is very hard to completely rinse out.
Norm
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I agree with Gene. Seal the bottom outlet of the radiator and fill with lacquer thinner and let stand overnight flush the next day. It should breakdown and dissolve anything that should not be in there. Running a solution of Dawn dish washing liquid in water through should remove any remaining oily residue. If there is the same goop in the water jacket, seal the water inlet port and fill the jacket up to the outlet port with lacquer thinner and also let stand overnight. Jim Patrick
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Jim...nice to see a "second" to my earlier suggestion about lacquer thinner. This wonderful, almost miracle product, is way too often overlooked. It certainly should literally liquify this crap in his engine, flush out easily, heck I would even go so far as to go crazy and spend a little more on a couple extra gallons of lacquer thinner for a final flush. Give the engine 24 hours to "air dry", this stuff vaporizes fast, leaves no residue. Then if he wants he can give it another clear water flush just to feel good. So easy.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Hi Tim. Amen to that. It is the only solution to this problem that I can see. I buy it by the 5 gallon cans. Mineral spirits is okay for cleaning oil paint from brushes and minor cleanup of soluble oil, but the best solvent for cleaning anything from crusty grease, to paint brushes hardended with old paint is lacquer thinner, to what ever this goop is we are discussing. Also. If you pour it into a large glass container and seal it from evaporation, sometimes, after several days, the residue will sink to the bottom leaving the fairly clean lacquer thinner for re-use. To keep from disturbing the residue, siphon off the lacquer thinner into another container with a small clear 1/4” aquarium air hose held above the debris at the bottom. Hose is available at Walmart in the pet section or a pet store such as Pet Smart.
Sorry Tim. I gave Gene credit for the lacquer thinner idea when you were the first, to suggest it. Jim Patrick
Sorry Tim. I gave Gene credit for the lacquer thinner idea when you were the first, to suggest it. Jim Patrick
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Often in machine tools that have coolant systems you will find bacteria growing. They feed off the oils there. That may be what you have going on. What ever you use to clean it, be careful with it. May not be good for you or the finish on car. Dan
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Lacquer thinner would absolutely NOT be good for the finish, so better to remove the radiator from the car or cover everything in the vicinity with a tarp to protect from residual splashes or spilling. Jim Patrick
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Good thought on the rad Jim. And I've "repurposed" lacquer thinner like you suggest too! And no need for apology...meant no complaint!!
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I'm with this analysis and sequence of events. The residue could be stop leak because it didn't dissolve completely in the soluble oil mix mixed the the water neck rust. While engine oil mixed with antifreeze can cause sludge - antifreeze was not present in this caseAdam wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:28 pmIt looks like stop-leak to me. I bought a car a couple years ago that had some pretty nasty antifreeze in it with oily stuff floating on top. The top hose was hard, wrinkled, and shrunken, probably from whatever the oil was staying near the top when the engine was cool. The car had a newer radiator on it. What I think happened is that the previous owner likely drained his antifreeze into an unclean drain pan that had some gas & oil residue in it. He may have changed the radiator and dumped that soup back in, ran it for a couple years then parked it for a few more.
Please avoid using anything acidic to clean the cooling system. The engine block is around 100 years old. The cast iron is porous and neutralizing the acid that gets impregnated into old grey-iron isn’t as simple as putting some sort of base in it & rinsing. The potential damage will never be immediate, but if you plan on keeping your T more than 20 years, it’s a potential issue.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Yep, Stop Leak stops the leaks alright! And everything else with it!!
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Okay y'all! You GOTTA watch this 3 minute video! You won't believe your eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MskJaTr2uho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MskJaTr2uho
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I flushed my cooling system with the garden hose. Then I refilled it with RUST 911. I drove the car with the RUST 911 in it without any noticeable change in temperature. I left it in for 24 hours. When I dumped it I was amazed at the amount of black thick water that drained out. I repeated the process twice more. Now the entire cooling system was sparkling clean and rust free. Refill using rust inhibitor and you should be fine.
I always keep RUST 911 on hand. It is a great product.
https://www.amazon.com/Rust911-16-gallo ... ast_sto_dp
I always keep RUST 911 on hand. It is a great product.
https://www.amazon.com/Rust911-16-gallo ... ast_sto_dp
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I just finished rebuilding an original round tube radiator, half of the tubes were full of that oily paste. Very hard to get the rod through. Looked like somebody had used soluble oil or Radiator stop leak. Paul
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Tim - Did they ever figure out what that mess was? From the conversation it sounded like the customer seized the engine.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
The fact that Go-Jo would not clean my hands makes me think there is more going on than just water soluble oil. I have no experience with stop leak products but someone may well have tried to cure a leak coming from that rusted out water outlet.
Paint thinner does solve it, I'll try Fast Flush on some of the goo Saturday. We have a weather window now and for the next several days so I really want to put it together and get the car out on the road even if I have to pull it apart later for a better clean.
I love the idea of the liquid rust cleaners. I just did my '39 Caddie which the water soluble oil had allowed to get rusty over the last couple of decades. These products might have saved a lot of work.
Paint thinner does solve it, I'll try Fast Flush on some of the goo Saturday. We have a weather window now and for the next several days so I really want to put it together and get the car out on the road even if I have to pull it apart later for a better clean.
I love the idea of the liquid rust cleaners. I just did my '39 Caddie which the water soluble oil had allowed to get rusty over the last couple of decades. These products might have saved a lot of work.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I agree its probably old stop leak that just settled in the bottom of the cooling system. Personally, I would avoid the lacquer thinner solution. If you still have a sample of the crud, try dissolving it with some Zep Super Purple cleaner. Its avail at Home depot etc. Its a strong detergent with a very basic PH. If that works, fill the cooling system with a 75% solution and let it sit overnight and then flush it out with water. We flush machine tool coolant sumps in this manner and those can be pretty nasty in terms of gunk and goo.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
What is the capacity of the brass radiator cooling system? Knowing this will help me guesstimate the amount of cleaner needed.
I'll try some solutions on the goo tomarrow & see what cuts it. If Prestone fast Flush even looks likely I'll try it first as its already on the shelf & needs using up.
If I leave the Fast Flush or Zep in the system for a week or two, will it harm anything? The weather is great now, mid 40s but cooler weather is ahead & I don't want to get the 107 year old car out in the weather to drain & flush the cooling system.
I'll try some solutions on the goo tomarrow & see what cuts it. If Prestone fast Flush even looks likely I'll try it first as its already on the shelf & needs using up.
If I leave the Fast Flush or Zep in the system for a week or two, will it harm anything? The weather is great now, mid 40s but cooler weather is ahead & I don't want to get the 107 year old car out in the weather to drain & flush the cooling system.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
With the Zep, I would mix with hot water or simply fire it up with the cleaner in the system. Don't let the Zep sit on any paint or any aluminum parts- its on the caustic side. Not sure it would take a week to do its thing. Most any cleaner works better in a warm or hot solution.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Thanks Dan, I had in mind a nice drive while the weather allows it. It would be pretty easy to do an hour on our local country roads which ought to get it up to temp.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
What is the capacity of the brass radiator cooling system? Knowing this will help me guesstimate the amount of cleaner needed.
Roughly 2-2.5 gallons, give or take.
Roughly 2-2.5 gallons, give or take.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
You can do an experiment to determine what works best so you don’t waste money on something that will not work. Take several jars and put a chunk of radiator goop in each, then pour in one of the several solutions that have been recommended into each jar then seal with a lid to prevent evaporation. Lacquer thinner, Mineral Spirits, Zep, MEK, Xylene, etc. and see which one works the best at breaking down and dissolving the goop into a liquid that can be flushed through the tubes. Jim Patrick
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
A buddy of mine sealed his radiator outlets, filled it part way with cleaner, strapped it to his portable concrete mixer, and let it run for an hour. Came out clean as a whistle! Cheers, Bill
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Blue Devil Products has been discussed in the Forum last year I believe - looks to be a possible answer.
https://gobdp.com/blog/what-is-the-best ... -radiator/
https://gobdp.com/blog/what-is-the-best ... -radiator/
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Mick Jagger
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I ran some tests to see what would solve this goo. The Prestone Flush I had on hand is old and so may not be fully up to snuff. I poured some out into a container with warm water and put a plastic stick with the goo on it. The Prestone didn't touch it. I bought a couple of gallons of the Zep Purple & repeated the test. At first, there was no visible result but returning after lunch revealed that the fluid was rusty colored and the goo on the stick was smaller.
I was very high on trying the Zep out until I put my glasses on and read that it was not to be used on brass or copper. Drat!
The cooling system was back together so the Prestone Flush went into it and I went for a drive. The motor ran for about two hours, mostly driving on country roads between 25 & 30 mph. The MotoMeter indicated that the temp was just below the circle throughout the drive. On coming back and shutting down the motor, the reading went up into the bottom of the circle as shown in the picture.
A laser thermometer showed readings around 180° on the upper tank & about 90° cooler at the bottom of the radiator. The air temps on the drive ranged from about 45° at the start & dropping to 40° by the end of the drive. Are those readings about right for a cooling system in good shape?
The Prestone is still in the system now and I intend to give the car a short drive this afternoon and drain it out.
I'm still thinking of that Zep and wondering if it might be safe to use for a short time, a few hours for example?
I was very high on trying the Zep out until I put my glasses on and read that it was not to be used on brass or copper. Drat!
The cooling system was back together so the Prestone Flush went into it and I went for a drive. The motor ran for about two hours, mostly driving on country roads between 25 & 30 mph. The MotoMeter indicated that the temp was just below the circle throughout the drive. On coming back and shutting down the motor, the reading went up into the bottom of the circle as shown in the picture.
A laser thermometer showed readings around 180° on the upper tank & about 90° cooler at the bottom of the radiator. The air temps on the drive ranged from about 45° at the start & dropping to 40° by the end of the drive. Are those readings about right for a cooling system in good shape?
The Prestone is still in the system now and I intend to give the car a short drive this afternoon and drain it out.
I'm still thinking of that Zep and wondering if it might be safe to use for a short time, a few hours for example?
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Those temperatures are about normal. However the true test would be a hard run on a very hot day. It will be a few months before that test can be made. Does the ZEP have any listed neutralizer. Rinsing it out might not be enough to keep down the damage to the brass and copper. If it contains lye, you need acid neutralizer such as vinegar, but if it contains acid, you need something like soda.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
How did the lacquer thinner do on the goop in your experiment? Lacquer thinner is a very hot solvent that is not corrosive or acidic and can be used on any kind of metal and MEK is even more powerful a solvent than Lacquer thinner. Jim Patrick
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Thanks Norm, our ink expert here at the office who is familiar with chemistry says its a base. Soda ought to neutralize it? Do you think it likely that any harm could be done in the few hours it would be in the system?
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
I did not try lacquer thinner or MEK (I have both on the shelf) as I know paint thinner cuts it and have little doubt that those solvents will as well.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
A base should be neutralized with an acid such as vinegar.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Many years ago several talked of a flush using Calgon DISHWASHER POWDER. I did both the T and model A and while not perfect it did quite well. Use distilled water with antifreeze and drain and change once a year. Compared to everything it's cheap!! Bud.
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Re: Oily Rusty Paste in Cooling System
Sunday with the car back together, I went out for a long drive and then parked the car overnight. The next day it was back on the road for another nice drive. Once again, the temps were below the circle on the MotoMeter and the motor acted fine, no signs of getting hot. On coming back it was time to drain the Prestone flush out. No surprise here but the drain dripped a few times then stopped completely. Even poking the hole with a rod failed to release the warm flush.
The lower clamp came off & then the the inlet fitting to the block was pried off releasing a torrent of rusty warm water all over the wood hood shelf & fender. Pulling the hose assembly off allowed more water out. After letting it cool & drain for half an hour or so, a couple of gallons of clear water were poured into the radiator flushing out both the block & the radiator. Now the drain cock cleared. Two more gallons of water poured through seemed to clear the flush out pretty well.
Feeling inside the lower tank revealed less of the goo than had been present but it still wasn't clean. The Prestone worked better than I expected.
I'm too big a coward to risk the brass radiator with the Zep so I ordered a jug of the Blue Devil flush and will try that next. It will take a week or so to get here and then we'll repeat the process.
The lower clamp came off & then the the inlet fitting to the block was pried off releasing a torrent of rusty warm water all over the wood hood shelf & fender. Pulling the hose assembly off allowed more water out. After letting it cool & drain for half an hour or so, a couple of gallons of clear water were poured into the radiator flushing out both the block & the radiator. Now the drain cock cleared. Two more gallons of water poured through seemed to clear the flush out pretty well.
Feeling inside the lower tank revealed less of the goo than had been present but it still wasn't clean. The Prestone worked better than I expected.
I'm too big a coward to risk the brass radiator with the Zep so I ordered a jug of the Blue Devil flush and will try that next. It will take a week or so to get here and then we'll repeat the process.
The man with a watch always knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.