MTFCA Forum

I have acquired a 40-year-old unfinished 1913 Touring project that someone put a lot of effort into. Especially the hydraulic brake setup required a lot of engineering and machining. It has been suggested that the car might have come from the West coast, possibly California, where this type of modification was popular before disk brakes became trendy. The engine has a Model A crank, possibly for mountain racing, as it also has 21-inch wire wheels with balloon tires.
My intention is to make the car more like a 1913 and reliability is my number one priority. I would like to keep the 4-wheel hydraulic brakes, but want to go back to the 30-inch wood spoke wheels. I need to come up with a wood spoke hub fitted to an eight-inch drum. Currently I have the 21-inch wire wheel hubs with drums. The hydraulic system is definitely Nash Metropolitan, as was popular in the day. The rear was all fitted to a small drum T backing plate with 8-inch Metropolitan brake shoes. And the front spindles were fitted with Metropolitan backing plates.The work looks well designed. The front end has already been modified with a double wishbone to handle the stress of the front brakes. The steering is still original Model T (no box).
I have searched the old forum and found a lot of good information from several of you guys. Especially Ralph Ricks, who, unfortunately, is no longer with us. I also recognized the names of some of you who are currently on the forum.
Ideally, I would love to hear from someone who has hands-on-experience and is knowledgeable with this older hydraulic brake upgrade.
I know I will have to mate clincher style wheel hubs with 8-inch drums. I have read on the old Forum that there are several types of 8-inch drums that could be used, such as RX7, Chevy Citation, and VW Jetta.
I would be open to swapping my good wire wheels and hubs with the Metropolitan drums for good wood spoke wheels, hubs, and drums. But I know that's probably a long shot. Or let me know if anyone has any related parts that I can buy. I'll also be in the market for a master cylinder and some type of proportioning valve.
You can also email me directly at richsclassiccars@bellsouth.net or call me at 561-262-0393. Thanks!

With simple alterations, you should be able to fit your drums to proper wood wheel hubs. Ford's wood wheel hubs changed very little from 1912 through 1927, and the wire wheel hubs for 1926/'27 are very similar except for five bolts instead of six. So provided the wire wheels you have are Ford wire wheels, your drums should work. With some minor fitting. If your wire wheels are some other after-market or adapted type wheels? A whole new ballgame.

So I did a quick search and Rock Auto does NOT list the brake drums. Some other brake parts yes. In regards to the master cylinder, Speedway Automotive has extensive listings and related components.
There are probably other sources of suitable drums but probably just as easy to use the drums you have.
I recommend you use a “safety hub(with a ball bearing)”
Your wire wheel hubs and wheels are fairly valuable.
Another option to consider is going with Buffalo or similar era correct wire wheels. Just a thought.

I have used Metro brakes with both wood wheels and 26/27 wire wheels and I am a fan of them. The little Mets have a good following so there are several parts vendors. I've used https://www.shopmetropolitanparts.com/default.aspx with good success.

If your drums are in otherwise good condition, you should be able to simply get them redrilled for the 6 lug bolt pattern of wood wheel hubs. Pretty much easy peasy. If you want new drums, they will require a bit of machining to remove a lip on the inside of the drum that helps locate it on the hub in a stock Metro as well as drilling for the 6 bolt hub. Brake shoes, wheel cylinders and other bits are all available and pretty reasonable (even for a T guy). I use a 3/4" bore master cylinder that I got from Speedway Motors as it has a remote reservoir which was easier for me.

Brakes are a good thing and while these are obviously not stock to many vintage car folks, most of the general population wouldn't know that. Good to hear that you have the double wishbone, that would be absolutely necessary with front brakes.

Ralph used the VW bug master cylinder with a remote fluid tank. Your car may very well have been from this area and one of Orvilles conversions.

Thanks to Les, Walt, Gene, and Wayne for your informative input!
My opening post didn't have quite enough information and details, especially relating to the mating of the hubs and drums.They are not bolted together, they are machined and welded. Therefore it is more involved that just re-drilling the drum. It will involve machining the spoke wheel hubs and machining some type of 8-inch drums. The goal is to end up with a welded one-piece hub-drum that will fit my Model T/Metro setup. I am including some pictures to illustrate what I am trying to say.
Les suggested Buffalo wheels, but I prefer the authentic, original look.
I also need to add that I am not a machinist. I do have access to an old, rather worn out lathe. I am confident with my welding and realize that precision is of utmost importance.
One more concern that is on my mind right now: Metro and VW did not incorportate a proportioning valve. How did you guys overcome this issue?

Mine are strictly bolt together. Some use of simple spacers to manage depth of drum vs. backing plates but quite straight forward. Looks like you would be starting the process for using wood wheel hubs from scratch regardless of bolting vs. welding.

I did not find a need for a proportioning valve.

SurfCityGene wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:46 pm

Ralph used the VW bug master cylinder with a remote fluid tank. Your car may very well have been from this area and one of Orvilles conversions.

Gene can you give me any additional info where i could find more info of Orvilles conversations. thanks

walber wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:44 pm

Mine are strictly bolt together. Some use of simple spacers to manage depth of drum vs. backing plates but quite straight forward. Looks like you would be starting the process for using wood wheel hubs from scratch regardless of bolting vs. welding.

I did not find a need for a proportioning valve.

Walt, can you please give me more details of how you bolted the hubs and drums together? How did you go about centering the front drums to the hubs, as the hubs are only cast, not machined, and irregular on the back side? Also, my concern is keeping the drum in line with the brake shoes (drum offset). If I am not making myself clear here is my phone number: 561-262-0393. Call anytime.

Here is my ‘13 (Cdn RHD) with Buffalos. Sure is nice on a tour if you have a flat to be able to go again in 5-10 minutes. Various 30x3-1/2 wire wheels were available to fit the T by 13.

Les,
I like the Buffalo wheels but am still favoring the original wood spoke artillery wheels.
I have now sourced some Metro drums. Could you give me some step-by-step details of your procedure of fitting them to Model T hubs and any other pertinent information that a novice would need. For me there is no such thing as too much information (including pictures). I don't have enough years left for trial and error There is no substitute for knowledge and experience and from the feedback I've gotten you are the man. Your floating output shaft is reason enough why I make this statement. I recommended it to my Model t buddy and he installed it and after many miles is extremely satisfied with it.
Thanks in advance!
Rich
561-262-0393
richsclassiccars@bellsouth.net

I was hoping for more responses. Possibly my post dropped down too fast and did not get noticed?
Ron J in Florida and Jim B in West Virginia did call me in response to this post. And I called Walt Berdan and he described to me his way of brake installation. Since I am not starting from scratch, however, his method will not work for me. I just need to come up with artillery-style-wheel hubs and drums that will be compatible with my existing backing plates that are already fixed to my front and rear axles.
Is there anyone else that has information that could help me?
I did come across a very detailed, long post on the old forum dating back to 2009, when a lot of brain storming about this topic was going on.
Here is a link to this thread, for anyone who may be interested: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/108239.html
Hopefully I'll hear from someone who is currently running with Metro brakes.
Rich @ 561-262-0393
Call anytime, as I am still computer challenged (this has required my wife's help).

Rich, don't know if I can be of any help to you but I do have access to RDR's Picup with the Metros on it. I'm going over there on Wednesday or so and help his son in case you might need a picture or some info.

Maybe I'll give you a call if I get a chance when I'm there.

Gene

Rich, BTW Keep the wire wheels if that's what you already have. MHO

Gene,
Thanks for your reply. You are one of the guys I was hoping to hear back from.
I believe you guys are speedster oriented. I am not looking for speed. I just want my 13 to look like a 13. I'd prefer a period correct look.
I am looking forward to your and anyone else's call.
Rich
PS: I am looking for Metro drums. Possibly someone has something laying around in a corner or back shelf from 10 years ago. I would be all too happy to buy them. I have located 2 drums from California that just arrived today (USPS in 3 days from CA to FL).

Rich J. - Because I have only had experience with stock Ford factory Model T and Model A mechanical brakes, this is pretty much conjecture on my part, but to add to what SurfCityGene told you, I would also think that you would do well to stick with wire wheels rather that wood wheels. I'm sure that wood wheels that are tight and in good shape would be fine, but I would also think that it would be especially important to keep wood wheels in EXCELLENT condition because if not solid and tight, wood wheels have much more of a tendency toward "clocking" than wire wheels, with which "clocking" in hardly a consideration with wire wheels. FWIW,....harold

Harold: I appreciate you input. My demountable wood spoke wheels will be in the best possible condition.
To all: Your input has been very helpful and has resulted in several very good telephone conversations, most recently with Gene Carrothers.
Gene: Thank you for the phone call. I feel that we covered a weeks worth of emails in one conversation. I am looking forward to hearing from you when you are working on the Ralph Ricks car.

SurfCityGene wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:47 am

Rich, don't know if I can be of any help to you but I do have access to RDR's Picup with the Metros on it. I'm going over there on Wednesday or so and help his son in case you might need a picture or some info.

Maybe I'll give you a call if I get a chance when I'm there.

Gene

Gene,
Did you get a chance to go work RDR's brakes?
Rich
561-262-0393