Trouble Mounting a Tire on a Non-demountable Wheel

[erkbrn]

Hello everyone, as the title says, I am having some trouble mounting a tire on non-demountable wheel I have. This isn't the first time I've changed tires, and I have done it successfully several times on both demountable and non. Normally once I get the tire almost completely on it will just nicely slip into place on its own. However, I am having an issue where the tire will not sit flush around the area of the tube stem (see picture). No amount of wiggling or hammering will make it move that last inch inwards. I think this might be a tube issue, as this is the first time I have used a metal stem tube. I managed to get a rubber stem tube onto another demountable wheel no problem. Any thoughts or pointers? I've just about ruined my arms today (mounted and removed the tire 3 times trying to fix this issue). Thanks.

[Norman Kling]

I hope you have a flap in that tire. If you do, it is not likely the tube is pinched between the tire and the rim. Try letting a bit of air out and put a tire tool under the edge of the tire and flip it into the rim. When you get it flipped on, pump up the tire then let out all the air and pump it again so the tube will un= stretch. If you can't get it on with the wheel on the car, you might need to pull off the wheel so you can lay the tire on the ground and try again . Another thing which helps, but you would have to remove the tire to do it would be to cut a notch in the bead to fit the valve stem and then start installing the tire at the stem and work around to the opposite side.
Norm

[erkbrn]

Norm,

There is a flap in the tire (I learned that lesson on my first tire change). The only issue I could think of is that the tube stem is binding against the hole in the rim, as it seems to be slightly angled in the picture. The wheel is currently off the car, so no trouble there. I will try letting some more air out if possible and try again. Thanks

[Allan]

Eric, the valve stem is the first section of the tyre I mount. Get the stem seated in the hole with BOTH beads on the tyre seated in the rim. Holding it there with a clamp makes sure it stays put while you work on the rest. I lever both beads on, working each side of the valve stem, so the bit left at the end is opposite the valve stem/hole. Generally the back side will slip on, leaving just a small section of one bead to be levered/rubber hammered into place.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[erkbrn]

Alan,

For a metal stem tube, do you thread the stem nut all the way on before you mount the tire or after? I took the tube/tire off the rim again just now and it seems like the very bottom of the stem is binding on the feedthrough.

[Steve Jelf]

The bridge washer should be securely on the tube before you start. A new one is good enough for a new metal stem, but an original stem should have an original washer. The rim nut is tightened after the tire is in place. The tube should have just enough air to hold its shape. Allan's instructions are perfect. I would add two things: Baby powder & long irons. I use two-footers from HF (about $6 each). Some get by with two irons, but I use three. I've read of notching the bead at the stem, but I've never had to do that. When you get the tire on the rim, blow it up then let the air out to let it get comfortable, then blow it up for real.

You didn't ask about this, but I find Hartford tubes satisfactory. I avoid Custom Classic after having some that were prone to splitting.

[Allan]

Eric< I am not sure what you mean by a rim nut. With original threaded metal stems there is a bridge washer that is clamped tight by a relatively thin nut. That is all when fitting the tube/tyre assembly. I have never bothered with any other rim/dust cap nuts.
My lubricant of choice when fitting tyres is the brush on lube the professionals use.

Allan from down under.

[Steve Jelf]

Here's a valve stem cover and a rim nut, brass version. Larry will tell you this is not correct, and he's right. The modern metal stems, and the originals I use, are larger than the Schrader 777 used by Ford. As Dude Lester said, "It don't hurt the runnin' of it none."

One of the many styles of nickel era dust covers and rim nuts. This is incorrect (oversize) too.

[erkbrn]

What is the purpose of the bridge washer? Is it necessary if I use a rim flap? It seems like it could be contributing to the problem by preventing the tube from being “flush” with the inside of the rim. By rim nut I was referring to the thin nut that comes with the tube. I assumed this goes on after the valve is through the wheel, as that’s how I’ve seen it on other vehicles.

I’ll explore using powder or tire lube but I’ve never found them necessary before. I have the shorter motorcycle irons (I think 14” long). Not the easiest but I’m plenty strong enough. I had issues with the longer ones pinching.

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.

[Aussie16]

Hi Eric, at my first glance at your picture, the bead seems to appear a damaged and cracked? If the tyre is old and hard it will not cope well with the leverage required to get it on and the levers will damage the bead. I would not trust a tyre that has a cracked or damaged bead. Hopefully I am wrong, but the brown rust marks and cracks indicate it is an old hard tyre and will require very gentle persuasion rather than heavy levering to get it on. Talcum powder or tyre lube is a great help getting the bead over the rim also. I find doing it with the wheel still on the car is easier.

[Steve Jelf]

...the bead seems to appear a damaged and cracked?

Not only the bead. It looks like the sidewall is cracked too. If this is an old, hard tire, as it appears to be, that would explain the difficult mount, and I wouldn't trust it.

[erkbrn]

Yeah, the bead on this tire has taken a bit of damage from repeated attempts to get it onto the rim, so I was considering replacing the tire anyway at this point. I was hesitant as there seems to be a consensus that new tires aren't quite as good as the older ones, and these ones certainly are older. Wards Riversides made in New Zealand which I think dates them sometime around the 1980s. I guess that's a good lifespan .

[Steve Jelf]

After my experience with some NOS New Zealand Firestones, I will not use old tires again, no matter how good they were thirty years ago and how perfect they look now. They proved to my dissatisfaction that rubber deteriorates with age. Country roads ate 'em up PDQ.

[RajoRacer]

You might consider the advice stated here regarding replacement - that tire has used up it's usefulness !

I've mounted dozens of clinchers as no one around my area will tackle the task - I even purchased a manual tire machine as my knees don't appreciate the concrete floor much anymore ! I always start the tire mounting at the stem and work one side on - never had any luck doing both beads at once, then begin right back at the stem again to finish the job. I don't talc the tube but I do use plenty of Ruglide or equivalent tire mounting lube - it makes the job so much easier !

[John Warren]

Push your stem in as far as you can without loosing it. This will give the tire room to get into position. We just did one on our tour over the weekend. We left it on the car.

[Dan Haynes]

Eric -
When I had a tire hang up just like yours, I finally gave up in disgust and took the tire back off the rim. Despite my care, I found I had accidentally folded the flap and the displaced flap was stuffed in the rim curl, preventing the tire bead from seating.

The thing is, old tires that have been on a rim will usually go back on that rim with very little fight. Sure, the sidewalls are stiff, but the beads are pre-stretched and they usually pop right back on. New tires can be a miserable exercise and new old tires can be near impossible to stretch far enough. I once had a new-never-used old tire, about 20 or 30 years old. When I tried mounting it, I got it about 2/3 of the way around the rim when it just stopped. The tire looked like the letter D; it was just too shrunk to go on. I could have stretched it with a hat stretcher or by putting a modern wheel/tire assembly in it and airing up the new tire, but it was easier to just reach for a newer, softer tire.

[Allan]

Don, you have experienced the problem with flaps that I chose to circumvent. Instead of a flap, which is not needed in beaded edge tyres, I use a rim liner cut from the outside diameter of a 13" car tube. You can also use a 20" bicycle tube, slit along the underside. These are a snap fit in a 23" rim and do not get dislodged in tyre fitting. Nor do they add unnecessary weight to the wheel assembly. Both these are way cheaper than a set of flaps, if you have to purchase them. I get the car tubes free from tyre fitters/wreckers yards.

Allan from down under.

[George Mills]

Cranking back on memories of days gone by (haven’t done a wheel on the 15 in maybe 15 years....

Experience 1. Pre forum. Decided to change out a rubber stem tube for a metal tube. A zillion hours later and still no go. An old timer told me to V notch the inside bead with a box cutter. Tire mounted in less than 10 minutes.

Experience 2. 30 x 3-1/2 this time...old tube had a hole and cracks. V notch didn’t help. I managed to pinch the tube twice using 6” spoons so the patching of the new tube took a bit. Same old timer told me to stop over. He reached in his work box and had what looked a bit like a long tubeless tire stem...but it had male threads...something he had made. Instructions were to jam it up in the felloe hole, screw it into the metal tube and LEAVE the whole metal valve stem in the casing while fitting both beads, and then pull the metal stem out through the felloe hole. It worked like a charm using two spoons I had made out of later iron drum brake adjuster (I just spooned out the ends and ground to no edges.)

He has passed on, my other cars are all 21’’ wheels and demountables, and I’ve only been driving those so no further...spoon...experience

Worth mentioning these old hacks...

[Allan]

George, there is plenty of room for the valve stem and both beads to fit into a T rim. The notch only becomes necessary as an aid to fitting, when the beads on the tyre are mounted one at a time. When you have one side on the wheel, and you tug on the tyre trying to get the valve stem down the hole, you pull the already mounted bead across the hole, blocking it off. If both beads and the valve stem are mounted at the same time, this does not happen. I use a clamp to hold the tyre/tube assembly in the valve hole with both beads in place. The same effect can be had with non-demountable wheels by fitting both beads and the valve stem and lowering the car on the jack to hold the tyre in place.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[DickC]

Eric--I'm no expert but I have mounted these tires several times on my 12 Hack. One thing I always do is heat the tire, certainly if you are doing it in a cold garage/barn in the winter. I use a propane construction heater and warm the tire for about 20 minutes with the heater about 6 to 8 feet from the burner. I have the tube and flap inserted into the tire and both beads will go in at the same time. Just a thought. Dick C.

[Original Smith]

Get a Dykes book and read it!

[erkbrn]

Hello everyone, update for posterity.

I purchased a new tire and managed to get it on with little effort without any extra heat (maybe 60F and cloudy today) or notching. The new tire certainly helped as it was much more pliant, but there was one other issue that I noticed this time around. The rim flap was pulling on the tube stem once I placed both into the tire, causing it to be under slight tension laterally. This would make it difficult to align the stem, causing the long part of the stem to bind on the inside of the wheel when feeding it through. The bind was strong enough to keep the bead of the tire from seating properly. All is well now, thanks for you suggestions!

[Allan]

Eric, if you use a rim liner rather than an unnecessary flap, you will avoid that problem, and save money too.

Allan from down under.