MTFCA Forum

I posted some pics in another thread about the Butler Pennsylvania Ford dealership which is a Henry designed old building. Some say this 1907 is not a R from my earlier pics I posted. I just had a tour of the building tonight and here are some of my pics to share. I am not knowledgeable enough to say what’s correct and what’s not but will share the cool pics with you.

Part of the original crane track on the ceiling for model T assembly

It has a four cylinder engine with the water pump sticking out into the radiator, so it's either a Model N, R, or S. Since it has running boards and full fenders, it can't be a Model N, because Model Ns had step plates instead of running boards and cycle type fenders.

So, it's either a Model R or S. Do you have pictures of the hinged lid that goes over the trunk area? If it's round at the back, it's a Model R (R for Round is how I remember), if it's pointed at the back then it's a Model S. I think the wheel sizes were different between the two models as well, but it's hard to tell the difference in pictures.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29 ... 1143895593

http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/pate-s ... nabout.pdf

http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/pate-s ... nabout.pdf

I think Rob Heyen has photos of his Model K. It is a big six cylinder with a two speed transmission. Fine car.

That is the wrong carburetor. It should have a funky looking Holley with a spring tower on top for the air valve.

Bob Richmon in Virginia has a fine either R or S. He is not on here but is on the Model T page on Facebook.

The oiler shown in the picture is the vacuum type. It's that brass tube shown on the right side of the engine. A Model S I think would have a McCord mechanical oiler. It would be a brass box sitting in that spot to oil the car.
So with what Mark said and with it having a vacuum oiler I would say it is a Model R?
By the way if anyone has a McCord oiler I'd like to have one.

This is the board with it. I didn’t see the trunk lid

The N had the exhaust pressure oiler. There are engine and chassis details that could tell you if N or R I believe they started serial numbers new at each letter. It doesn’t have an R backend , but if you were going on 120 years old, your body would be messed up a bit, too. Looks like a great car. I especially like the engine number and body tag that match.
Gotta remember it was neat to just keep these things together and out of the scrap drives. Many Ns were likely updated with bigger tires and later fenders, and all easily reversible.

I can stop by and get more specific pics if anyone wants. I am over this way working maybe once a month.

It's a Model R. The turtle deck has been modified. You can see where the old trunk was cut off and the new, squared off trunk begins. Notice the patches inside that trunk that joins the old and new sections together. The exhaust pressure oiler is not correct for an R or an S. The exhaust manifold does not seem to have the pressure tap needed for a pressure oiler. The pressure oiler was only used on the N. Also, the front camshaft bearing is for an N. The R or S bearing would be shorter, allowing the cam end to stick out, where a drive pulley, (that drives the R or S McCord oiler), would be installed.

Butler County Ford was one of attractions on international tour in 2018 I believe dealership is still in same family
The car was taken in trade for new Ford in early 50 s . Dealership ship went all out -- put period correct cars through entire showroom
I spent a lot of time checking car out. I not very knowledge of that era cars but very exciting I'll never forget. Highlight of 5 day tour.
I have lots of family in prospect,part of Butler Co
Great people.!!

Rich, we had just talked about this few weeks back. Guy at the printing plant where I am working knew the salesman who gave us a tour tonight. Cool place

A lot of history in that building
And great people to boot
They have good reputation with the locals

I’d agree with what you say , Jerry, except bodies are easily changed. I saw my first N as a teenager, and many decades later, a mutual friend of ours owns it now. He has put it back into the R that it really was. With that very early serial number, I’d want to see the head ports, and the rear radius rods. Probably some others things in person. It’s fun to identify these, and again, a great old Ford.

Dropacent wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:14 pm

I’d agree with what you say , Jerry, except bodies are easily changed. I saw my first N as a teenager, and many decades later, a mutual friend of ours owns it now. He has put it back into the R that it really was. With that very early serial number, I’d want to see the head ports, and the rear radius rods. Probably some others things in person. It’s fun to identify these, and again, a great old Ford.

Tim,

Yes, I agree on the ports and radius rods. (The earlier style of each, indicating 1906, when the R had not yet been produced**) The seat has the buggy rail supports along the top edge of the buckets as a 1907 would have, and not lower, coming out of the seat backs as a 1906 might. I would actually guess that the engine may have been swapped over from an N, if it weren't for that matching number body tag. The fenders are of course R style and while the wheels are new, they are 30 x 3, as an R would have. Being new, I suppose they could have been made any size desired, but I'm thinking that more likely, they would have replicated what was left of the original wheels. Supporting that further is that they appear to have used the original rims, which show rust pits. I'm not saying any of this "correct", it's just the things drive my thoughts & "edjumacated" guesses.

BTW, I'm not thinking it's an R based on anything I'm seeing in the body. The body could just as well be from a N. Really difficult to tell the difference with the trunk modified as it is. Could just as well be an N body & N engine on an R chassis.

** I know you knew that Tim.

Thanks again for this post, Danny. This is Jerry driving his beater at the old car festival

Dropacent wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:29 pm

Thanks again for this post, Danny. This is Jerry driving his beater at the old car festival 3E5F651C-4182-4C1A-904F-0D9D0092BA5C.jpeg

Wow Tim! Where did you dig that one up?!?

Danny, Thanks so much for sharing the pictures. They are terrific.
I really enjoyed them.
Rich

Glad to post them
I learn a lot sitting back and listening
So you all say it’s a R engine?
Cannot tell anything by the serial number? Other than it matches the tag?
Are there records for the number of these early car’s production?

Yes there are some records, although not complete. Pate's early ford Automobile Encyclopedia has most of them listed. Trent Boggess has done a lot of research on the early car production and posts regarding his findings can be found on earlyfordregistry.com. Still gaps in engine numbers and just like the T, they may have used up previous models parts when building new models.

Jim

Makes sense
Thanks Jim

And just to add some clarification and confusion to the discussion. I noticed a question about the serial numbers versus the models. The N the R and the S all started at serial number one. So serial numbers below some count will be duplicated on all three models. Above that number, and below the second most produced model's highest number will be duplicated between the two larger production models. If I recall correctly, the model S may have been the largest production of the three models. (Someone correct me if I am wrong?) Only the highest production model will have unique serial numbers on numbers above the lower productions highest numbers.

Engines need to be assessed for oiler and/or other minor mechanical differences to determine what model they are from. Unless the serial number is fairly high.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:52 am

And just to add some clarification and confusion to the discussion. I noticed a question about the serial numbers versus the models. The N the R and the S all started at serial number one. So serial numbers below some count will be duplicated on all three models. Above that number, and below the second most produced model's highest number will be duplicated between the two larger production models. If I recall correctly, the model S may have been the largest production of the three models. (Someone correct me if I am wrong?) Only the highest production model will have unique serial numbers on numbers above the lower productions highest numbers.

Engines need to be assessed for oiler and/or other minor mechanical differences to determine what model they are from. Unless the serial number is fairly high.

I believe the N had the highest production, being the cheapest and having been produced from 1906-1908 probably helped boost its numbers. Models R & S were from 1907-1908. From my faulty memory, I believe there were about 7000 N's, 2500 R's, & 5000 S's. (I would be more than pleased to be corrected if those numbers are grossly off)

So, Jerry V O, your memory cannot be too "faulty", you are almost right-on the numbers! I got out my copy of Pate's book, and in chapter 04, page 3, the chart he shows gives approximately 7,000 model Ns from 1906 through 1908, approximately 2,550 model Rs from 1907 through 1908, and a total of approximately 5,660 model Ss (2,350 model S, plus 3,710 model S roadsters combined). S roadsters were 1908 only.

I would have looked smarter if I had just dug the book out in the first place.

From this picture, it looks like a bent rear radius rod. Jerry would remember , I’m fuzzy. I think bent radius means early N production, or do I have it backwards? Wit( that low serial number, I still think it very well could be a N. If the manifolds are taken off and no counter bores in the head, that would confirm, too. Just love the N , the true ancestor of the T and a really antique looking car. I think the fenders are homemade. To be clear, I’m not in any way picking this car apart, I just see it as an interesting detective story.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:04 pm

So, Jerry V O, your memory cannot be too "faulty", you are almost right-on the numbers! I got out my copy of Pate's book, and in chapter 04, page 3, the chart he shows gives approximately 7,000 model Ns from 1906 through 1908, approximately 2,550 model Rs from 1907 through 1908, and a total of approximately 5,660 model Ss (2,350 model S, plus 3,710 model S roadsters combined). S roadsters were 1908 only.

I would have looked smarter if I had just dug the book out in the first place.

Thanks Wayne. I guess a few things still make it through my head

Dropacent wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:50 am

From this picture, it looks like a bent rear radius rod. Jerry would remember , I’m fuzzy. I think bent radius means early N production, or do I have it backwards? Wit( that low serial number, I still think it very well could be a N. If the manifolds are taken off and no counter bores in the head, that would confirm, too. Just love the N , the true ancestor of the T and a really antique looking car. I think the fenders are homemade. To be clear, I’m not in any way picking this car apart, I just see it as an interesting detective story. 2A90A475-B071-49F3-893C-DBA57EDE610A.png

Tim,

Now you're really testing me. I tend to agree that the bent rods are the early style. My car isn't handy in order to confirm that. That said, not easy to judge from the photo what exactly we're seeing there. Maybe a future visit by the OP will return some photos of where the rear radius rods attach to the rear axle housing.

I too like the N for its bare bones simplicity and for those "plowshare" fenders.

Good pics and information, thanks guys. If this car began as an R (with an N engine switched in), there should be holes where the step plate brackets attached, and they should be plugged with rivets. Ford kept building, and punching holes, in the frames of R and S models, "plugging" the now unnecessary holes where the step plate bracket went. If the holes are open, that tells me either someone took the time to grind off the filler rivets, or the frame was originally used on an "N" car.

If this were an early N (early number), the rear end should have the bent radius rods as they intersect the rear end housings. I think Ford learned that leaving the rods straight took less time, and I'm guessing made the change when the "new' 1907 model began to appear, my guess being at the new model year/fiscal year of Oct 1, 1906, but just my guess.

The first N (ours is #3) did not have a raised boss for the engine number, and in fact the number was originally stamped to the rear of the "402" casting number. I've seen one N motor with a three digit motor number that still didn't have the boss pad for the engine number, about #12(?). I don't know if the first 150, 200, 250 or even 500 motors were this way.

There were aftermarket bodies and accessories (our car has an aftermarket body with rumble seat on back, and we know it was that way as of 1925, as we have a photo of it taken at a Ford dealer then). It's possible that this was an aftermarket rear deck, or the change may have occurred years later.

Were this an early N, the hood if original, will have slightly different bends at the front of the hood, because the first N had a different shape radiator, with higher "shoulders." Our N had the later style radiator, as seen in the 1925 photo of it, but as a result the hood has been re-bent and doesn't quite fit correctly. Lastly, another difference if this were an early N, was a straight exhaust manifold, as opposed to a a tapered manifold to allow for more exhaust as the manifold goes rearward, as the pics show this "R" has.

It would be good to see this car completed and out on the road someday.
Thanks,
Rob