Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

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BLB27
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Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by BLB27 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:05 pm

What are the pros and cons of painting/coating the inside of the engine and hogshead? Do you ever just coat the engine and not the hogshead?


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Kerry » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:09 am

Nothing to debate just a simple No.
Lab tests carried out in 1941, SAE 30, 2000rpm
"The amount of heat absorbed by the oil in the ordinary engine is not so great that it cannot be satisfactorily dissipated through the walls of the crankcase"
The lubricating oil handles as much as 19% of the total engine cooling.

Paint the inside is only going to trap the heat, the oil must rely on the circulating oil to keep temperature at a safe level.
If you have a modern engine with an external oil cooler, then go for it.


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by jiminbartow » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:08 am

Below is a discussion and documentation from 2010 when during my engine rebuilding, I coated the interior of my engine block, hogshead and oil pan with Glyptal. Now, ten years later, the coating looks and functions as well as when first coated and baked on. Not only does it keep the oil from sticking to the interior surfaces, it brightens the interior, helping one to better see the interior components of the engine. Glyptal is a proven coating, as it was originally used to seal the mag coils and the starter and generator windings. I don’t know about Kerry’s claim that coating the interior of the hogshead will retain the heat, but I have never had a problem with my T overheating. I see nothing but advantages to coating the interior of the engine with Glyptal and many members have done it as well and agree. I think you should go for it. Jim Patrick. www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152476.html


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Kerry » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:23 am

Jim, you hit the nail on the head with saying that Glyptal was and is, used for electrical components, and is for no other reason other than to keep heat out, do it to the internal of an engine is doing exactly what it's designed for, restricting heat transfer through the metals.
Even the VW beetle had a oil cooler!


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Luxford » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:30 am

Well I can see a disadvantage which could an expensive one, aside from Kerry's obvious reason for saying No is this one.
The inside has never normally needed any coating as oil does a perfect job of preventing any corrosion or rust but as one of our members found out if the preparation of the insides of the motor is not exacting (can be hard to clean the surface sufficiently to gain sufficient adhesion) one risks the possibility that the coating will peel off and block off the oilways and the end result is one destroyed motor.

The motor was coated with Gyptal ( possibly after being discussed on the forum and recommended there) only to find his 1910 original motor was completely destroyed when the coating peeled off blocked all the oil holes and the tube to the front main. They were able to save the block but all the pistons, connecting rods and the crankshaft bearings were toast.

The motor had to have a complete ground up rebuild including a Scat crankshaft all for the sake of having a nice red motor interior which one would never see again in a life time if the motor was driven as most are these days.

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Tim Rogers » Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:25 am

Bruce- applying Glyptal to the inside of you engine and hogs head is completely un-necessary and will yield no measurable increase in performance. Use your common sense, why go through all the trouble of making sure that every last bit of petroleum residue has been removed from the interior of your engine just to apply an insulating coating designed for electrical apparatuses?

Don't use it just because others have (my opinion):

peeling.jpg
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by J and M Machine » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:29 am

Tim Rogers wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:25 am
Bruce- applying Glyptal to the inside of you engine and hogs head is completely un-necessary and will yield no measurable increase in performance. Use your commons sense, why go through all the trouble of making sure that every last bit of petroleum residue has been removed from the interior of your engine just to apply an insulating coating designed for electrical apparatuses?

Don't use it just because others have (my opinion):


peeling.jpg
Tim Rogers: you're are absolutely correct ! We get this question often when rebuilding old engines that they saw it in the forum.
Only way the paint will stick is if the block is totally free of oil. Only way that is possible is to thermal clean it or buy a new block.
Then again i wouldn't trust it. Just like in your picture, we had an engine that the customer bought because it was cheaper and it was in a boat.
Well half way across the lake he saw the oil pressure going down. a significant amount of paint came off and clogged the pickup screen.

Without having the paint coat the inside of an engine the oil will do the same thing. Once there is an oil film coating the parts it would return as fast as it was painted.. Model T isn't a high performance engine that needs a coating for performance reasons. I don't see any benefit from painting the internals. If Ford felt the need for it he would of painted everything inside and out.

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:42 am

What we have here is a marvel mystery oil type debate. “ I did it and it’s right” vs. “I won’t do it and it’s wrong”. Personally I’m against it because of the possibility of it peeling which is obvious in the pictures posted. Anyone remember the VW Beetle finned valve covers that we’re supposed to increase cooling? In actual tests they did run cooler but the cooler oil clung to the inside of the cover forming an insulating barrier and the engines ran a bit hotter!
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by John kuehn » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:16 am

Model T’s ran for years before anybody thought about using some type of coating inside the engine. It does make a rebuild look nice when putting things together. If you want to do that that’s fine.
For me using the transmission filter under the transmission cover, using a good grade of detergent oil and a regular oil change is as my father use to say ‘plenty good’. And as a added note ‘it don’t make it run better’.
To each his own.

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:09 am

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Pro's
-It keeps the oil from sticking to the interior surfaces, it brightens the interior, helping one to better see the interior components of the engine. Will coating the interior of the hogshead will retain the heat? Never had a problem with my T overheating.
Previous discussion
-It is functional. Glyptal is a tough, slick coating that prevents the oil crud from adhering to the interior engine walls and protected engine components, so that the oil more efficiently flows back down into the pan. And it look good, The red color also reflects light, making the various components stand out
-My drag racer friends swear by it

Con's
-Lab tests carried out in 1941, SAE 30, 2000rpm. "The amount of heat absorbed by the oil in the ordinary engine is not so great that it cannot be satisfactorily dissipated through the walls of the crankcase". Paint the inside is only going to trap the heat. The lubricating oil handles as much as 19% of the total engine cooling.
-The inside has never normally needed any coating as oil does a perfect job of preventing any corrosion or rust but as one of our members found out if the preparation of the insides of the motor is not exacting (can be hard to clean the surface sufficiently to gain sufficient adhesion) one risks the possibility that the coating will peel off and block off the oilways and the end result is one destroyed motor.
-applying Glyptal to the inside of you engine and hogs head is completely un-necessary and will yield no measurable increase in performance. Use your commons sense, why go through all the trouble of making sure that every last bit of petroleum residue has been removed from the interior of your engine just to apply an insulating coating designed for electrical apparatuses?
-Only way the paint will stick is if the block is totally free of oil. Only way that is possible is to thermal clean it or buy a new block. $$$$ Model T isn't a high performance engine that needs a coating for performance reasons.
-‘it don’t make it run better’.
Previous discussion
-I have been using Glyptal for 40 years but only last week read the directions and discovered that it is supposed to be baked for 2 hours at 250 degrees F., in order to properly cure out so it can attain its' maximum level of protection and hardness. Perhaps the fact I did not know to bake it the first time I used it is why, for the last 40 years, I have been seeing red chips in my transmission door screen.

In summary
No evidence that it does anything to improve Model T engine performance.
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:51 am

Experience is my teacher, in my use, satisfied with results and no down side in coating with brush Gyptal.
As with any paint, surface prep is mandatory. Have used it since 2003 in my motors and can't find any downside, no flakes, no overheats.

All my crankcases get the coating, many had to be sandblasted from previous rusting of the steel. So after a metal clean surface, flooded with lacquer thinner and let dry. Then brush on single coat, air dry. IMO, the use of Gyptal prevents rusting of the steel as the oil can get moisture from heat / cooling cycles. In addition, the Gyptal seals the sandblasted surfaces, and the slick surface assists oil circulations, and easier drain outs. Plus the inspection pan is easy to wipe out when inspecting rods.

Seems to me, the temperature of the oil that is flying and frothing around inside the painted crankcase isn't increased by any measurable means. The paint is only microns thick, and just can't substantially impact the thermal conductivity of the steel to outside air. Have used it only once on a hogshead, no issues, but normal for me is to do the crankcase as the slick sides help oil that hits against the bare iron cylinder walls to flow easy to the pan dips.


IMG_6610 (450x600).jpg
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Gyptal in crankcase .jpg
Makes the crank throws look spiffy too ;)

Gyptal crank .jpg
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Kerry » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:49 pm

I'm gonna use it to paint my cast iron hot plate on my BBQ :D

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:10 pm

Like I said...........
Forget everything you thought you knew.


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:14 pm

Where is all this oil that clings to the surfaces of unpainted blocks and pans? Just how much oil is held "captive" by these surfaces? I just don't see the purpose of it, EXCEPT that it gives some folks satisfaction. If that's the lone benefit, then that's good enough.

As to acting as a heat insulator, it may actually help in cooling. It is in intimate contact with every bit of the block/pan surface. As long as it has good thermal conductivity, by its great contact with the block surface, it may have better heat transfer with the block than the viscous oil. The oil in turn, may also have better heat transfer with the surface of the paint. Whether that helps anything or not all has to do with Glyptal's thermal conductivity, which is probably an "unknown", unless somebody wants to ask the Glyptal people. (BTW Frank, heat in electrical motors arises from within the armature & field windings. Your theory that Glyptal impedes heat transfer would suggest that it's a poor choice for such applications, as it would hold the heat within the windings.) All that said, whether or not it helps or harms the transfer of heat in an engine is most likely an argument for engineers and scientists to debate because, in the real world, it probably doesn't change things by any more than 1 degree either way. Refer to my conclusion in the top paragraph.


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Kerry » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:01 pm

Jerry, you say it may help in cooling, regardless of trying to keep heat in or out, glyptal does exactly that. The moving parts generate friction heat which in turn transfers to the oil, the oil needs to transfer that generated heat, put a barrier in between which has very little thermal conductivity up to 135c is doing what it's designed to do, insulate.

An extreme example is, take the oil cooler off an automatic transmission and the oil boils in no time. We know from those who do paint, say that they notice no difference in the T engine but at the end of the day, you are still taking away it's oil cooler.

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Michael Peternell » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:22 pm

Okay, I'll ask the question. Are we still talking about a splash lubed model T or the space shuttle? :lol:


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by OilyBill » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm

Glyptal should be used in engines that have CAST ALUMINUM crankcases, or other cast aluminum parts.
I would NEVER Glyptal a cast iron or steel engine.
I use Glyptal on my 1926 Franklin. It was originally Glyptaled from the factory, in order to prevent oil seepage out of the crankcase and oil pan, which was also cast aluminum. The other place it was used is in the Franklin transmission, which was ALSO cast aluminum, both the case and the lid.
Coating steel or cast iron with Glyptal does absolutely NOTHING. Neither steel or Cast Iron have voids like cast aluminum does, therefore, what is the point of using it?
Franklin DID NOT do it to have any effect on heat transfer. Their sole and only purpose was to stop oil leakage through porosities and pin holes in the crankcase and transmission castings, which in aluminum are almost impossible to avoid. The crankcase casting is probably 5 feet long, including the front timing gear housing, and the aft flywheel/clutch housing, all of which are a one piece casting. Failure to use Glyptal in cast aluminum crankcases would result in permanent small nuisance leaks that ruined the appearance of the engine. These leaks were never enough to affect engine operation, and did NOT result in large oil losses. Rather they were only tiny seeps that were a problem with fastidious owners.
The only place I would use it on a Model T is if I had a cast aluminum hogshead. The hogshead should be boiled or hot-tanked clean, and then the Glyptal should be diluted with MEK, and either sprayed or brushed onto the inside of the cleaned aluminum. 2 coats would be good. 3 would be perfect. The thinned Glyptal/MEK mixture should penetrate all the porosities and pin-hole leaks, and when it dries, further leakage is eliminated.

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:28 pm

Well, perhaps the British knew something. ;) Screen shot from British Pathe, video on YouTube showing mfg. steps at the MG company in the 1960's. Painting exterior of the block in gray, and the interior is covered in Gyptal red.

Image 1-31-21 at 6.23 PM.jpeg
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:34 pm

As reluctant as they are to parting with a buck, I seriously doubt that at $38/can of spray paint, or $50/quart, many Model T-ers are coating their blocks with Glyptal in any real quantity (though I do believe Dan, as he is typically very careful with terminology). Now, if you are using generic red varnish readily available from the suppliers, then I'd believe that, and if so, the mention of "Glyptal" is a red herring, and pictures of failed coatings are that of either improperly prepped or cured Glyptal or more likely, simply an inferior product glibly misidentified.

Not an argument for or against, but if one could expect a glyptal coating failure like pictured above, then anyone running a restored mag ring is likely screwed.
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:51 pm

Been doing it for years with no failures. As stated by others. use a quality product and proper prep is the key!

Hank


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Kerry » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:47 pm

"well perhaps the British knew something"
Sure did, MG's had a external oil cooler.

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by DanTreace » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:10 pm

Kerry

My T's have external oil coolers too.

When hooked to the mag outlet, the copper oil line runs 'air cooled' oil to the timing gears. :lol:
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by It's Bill » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:25 am

Smokey Yunick's take: Smokey believed that no matter how hard you scrubbed the inside of a new engine, there was always a stray particle of casting sand that would remain and potentially come loose and find its way to a main bearing. Remember his racing engines operated at full power at the edge of detonation for hours in order to win races. A piece of sand could and did score a crankshaft now and then causing the crank to break resulting in a DNF and no prize money that day.

Smokey used Glyptal. Because the engines were torn down and mostly junked after each race, the internal coating longevity was not an issue. He was fastidious in its application to make sure it did not separate from the iron and foul the oil passages and pump. He did think it helped oil return somewhat.

I coated an MG engine with Glyptal, and it is a great deal of work to do properly. The prep is complicated, finicky, and very time consuming. It does look nice and is very photogenic. Would I go through all that work for an engine that has been soaking in oil for 100 years and only makes 5 horsepower per cylinder? Nope. Raw cast iron is OK with me, save the painting for the outside.

My 2 cents, the choice is yours! Cheers, Bill

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by George Mills » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:11 am

I don't know?

I'm going to show my mental ignorance as I'm not near my paper references to actually reference the material specs

I worked for a company that did engine parts for the USS New Jersey the first time she was built, we also did high speed enclosed 4-bar mechanisms for general industry and mill service. We also did huge dog-bone and cam cyclic mechanisms. Those '4-bars' with femurs the size of a giraffe neck in length and elephant leg in diameter spinning at 1000's of RPM were all wet sump oiled.

Standard procedure was to bake all new castings...then paint all interiors with some kind of white primer...then some kind of high gloss perhaps alkylid finish coat that smelled almost like something burning while it dried. The idea was that there would be no stalactites or stalagmites of crud in corners when future maintenance or rebuilding was required. Never did I ever find peel no matter how old and how hard run the machinery was. A quick wipe with solvent and the inside of the cases looked like a new refrigerator! No there wasn't a combustion chamber but many of these when stopped would instantly sound like water drops on a fry-pan and the pssss.hisssss as drips from the top of the gear cases would drop on lower gears inside.

Like someone else said...do it right and there is probably no fear. Say 'close enough' and maybe there is time to worry? I'd guess that in spite of what I said here....home brew way is no guarantee that it will stick?


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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by jiminbartow » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:34 am

I have always babied my T. Many modern high tech engines that rarely leak oil or water, do not need as much maintenance as a very low tech engine that is notorious for leaking oil and water and thus need these topped off, often. Many Model T’rs, believing that a Model T engine is tough and can go for long periods without maintenance, do not do the necessary maintenance as often as needed, sometimes delaying necessary maintenance.

A lot of talk regarding retention of heat that can possibly be caused by coating the interior surfaces with Glyptal has been put forth here and I’m sure we are all in agreement that one of the quickest ways to overheat an engine is to let it run low on oil. If the engine oil is low, which, with all the leaking, is common in the Model T, the oil klinging to the interior surfaces of the oil pan, block, transmission drums and hogshead, could actually be a factor in maintaining a serviceable oil level and a low, but serviceable oil level before starting the engine could quickly become dangerously low and unserviceable once the engine has started and the splashing oil klings to the vast amount of interior surfaces. Glyptal, coating and sealing these rough porous interior surfaces, makes them smooth and slick so that the oil quickly sheds instead of remaining on these surfaces, possibly avoiding the oil level going below a safe level.

If a $50.00 expenditure for a quart of Glyptal and a little extra application work while the engine is open and dismantled is needed to help my T run more efficiently and last longer, then I think it is a good investment in time and money. Finally, if you believe that an interior coat of Glyptal retains heat inside the engine, the same argument can be made that coating the exterior of the engine can also retain heat, but since the internal combustion engine was invented, the exterior of engines have been painted to protect the steel from deterioration and for appearance and I have never heard an argument claiming that painting an engine will cause overheating, because it won’t. Many high end auto manufacturers such as MG and Rolls Royce, as well as professional racers and ship builders recognize the merits in coating the interior of engines with Glyptal or an equivalent coating and if it is good enough for a high tech engine, the same advantages that it provides them are even more advantageous for increasing the efficiency of the low tech T engine.

I will continue to coat the interior of my T engine with Glyptal, as I was convinced long ago by a majority of highly respected MTFCA member/Model T experts, who were so dedicated to the T and so influential in advising those of us back then with less experience, that coating the interior of an engine with Glyptal does much more than making the interior look brighter. It actually increases the efficiency of the oil by helping to maintain a safe oil level and prevents contamination of the oil from impurities from the bare metal and cast iron. I say this because before coating my engine with Glyptal, my oil would turn black a lot faster than it does now. Now, it retains its’ clean, amber color, much longer. Jim Patrick

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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Tim Rogers » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:57 am

"A buddy of mine restores antique aircraft. Many of those aircraft engines used the glyptal in the crankcases but later found that it was contaminating the oil."

"I don't think it makes much difference personally, unless you don't prep the block for it correctly and it peels off and stops up the oil passages."

"I've never used it in any of my engines and never had any problem with the oil making it back to the pan."

"If getting a few spoonful's of oil back in the crankcase faster will make any difference, you have problems paint won't solve."

"on a street engine there is more risk of Glyptol eventually ending up where it can cause problems than there is benefit(real or imagined) from doing it."

"Doing it on an old casting, even if the part is is thoroughly cleaned, increases the risk of adhesion problems over what would be the case with a new casting."

"Glyptal has to be applied correctly and the surface has to be clean (really clean) and after you apply it you have to bake it. A master engine builder told me that painting the inside of an engine block adds to the risk of things that can plug lines (paint flakes). A lot of work for no advantage."

"I was told long ago by my machinist not to do it. He had seen cases where it flaked off, blocking the oil pick-up screen."

"Ask yourself this ... How much work am I in for (in order to rectify the problem) if I start seeing paint flakes in the oil?"

" ... just not worth the risk for what could very well be minimal benefit, if any benefit at all."
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<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:11 am

Lay you $5 they ain't listening Tim.
Forget everything you thought you knew.

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TRDxB2
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:40 pm

Putting aside personal preferences & past experiences - there is no measurable evidence that Glyptal does anything to improve engine performance. But there is measurable evidence that it can do harm. Maybe one could measure "improved oil flow" by measuring the oil level in the pan at various RPMs. The heat issue could be measured . But both of theses tests would take several rebuilt engines to prove anything, but then again how much difference might there be to prove one's case. Noticing that the oil appears cleaner after an engine rebuild is likely to be true using Glyptal or not. Preventing rust, smoothing surfaces makes sense but wouldn't powder coating do the same thing - and then again ceramic coating would really make a slick surface.

Now I don't know that this is true but I came across this in trying to find facts about Glyptal "Incidentally, the current form of Glyptal is NOT the same as the original form of GE's Glyptal enamel. It used to be a good dielectric for stator and field coil repairs. Now it is basically a cosmetic touch-up. Guys who were doing things in the '50s, '60s and '70s had the real material. It is no longer available." https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech-ge ... de-ls.html and we know everything is new and improved.

Read the label http://www.glyptal.com/glyptal_products.html lots of colors and formulations (red alykyd vs red epoxy)- not sure which ones have been used, another variable to express pros & cons about. Today's lubricants are much better than those of the '50s, '60s and '70s - that's 50 to 70 years ago. Maybe its time to reassess ones position.
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BLB27
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by BLB27 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:49 pm

I asked for a discussion and I got it!! Thanks to you all who contributed. I really appreciate very ones response. Now I will make a decision!


2nighthawks
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Re: Need A Discussion Regarding Coating Inside of Engine/Hogshead

Post by 2nighthawks » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:43 pm

Guess I'm "a little late to the show" here, but I meant to comment that I regard the coating of the inside of a Model T engine with anything as ,...."over=restoration".

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