MTFCA Forum

I am restoring a 1927 coupe and am considering installing disc brakes. I would appreciate some discussion of the pros and cons (if any) of doing this.

Your car, your choice. Myself I went with Rockies and regretted it ever since. Took them off and threw them in the corner of my garage and went with John W. Stoltz's (Model T Ranch) heavy duty brakes with Kevlar lined shoes...they're also attached to a Floating Hub, which puts the weight of the car onto the wheels and not on it's rear axle. And yes, they stop my car and will lock up the rear wheels if I'm not careful...something you never really want to do actually, because once you lock up those wheels, you no longer have any control over your car, you're skidding along at the mercy of inertia.

But I've been told those Disc Brakes work pretty good and some folks I know who've installed them, disconnected their transmission brakes figuring they didn't need them anymore. Myself I'd be hesitant to do that, because the more braking power you've got the better in a Model T. But they don't look all that noticeable on wood spoke wheels, so I'd imagine they'd even look less noticeable on Model T wire's also. The pads are readily available at most car parts stores, so, no worries there, as to the rotor I don't really know, but I'd imagine that they're a standard size from something...that's what you've got to check into really, what it would take to rebuild them and where you can find parts. My guess is that just about any car parts store has most of what you'd need to rebuild them, if and when you ever did.

Your choice really, I just prefer the ones I'm using as opposed to something that (to my mind) doesn't belong on a Model T Ford.

A previous owner installed disc brakes on my ‘26 roadster pickup. The brakes work great; the truck stops well for a vehicle with rear wheel brakes only and skinny tires. The discs are noticeable behind my wire wheels.
Someone also added a water pump and KC Warford aux. trans - I ditched the pump but thoroughly enjoy the discs and KC Warford.

I hate the looks and plan to swap these out with drum hydraulics. And haven’t even run it yet

Let me clarify, I am going to start this up and run with these until I get time to change them out.

I drive in the mountains of Western Montana and Idaho. I've also taken my T over the Beartooth Pass and every major pass in Montana and this is how I see it. Totally stock brakes are not that safe in these mountains, RM brakes are pretty good but they can get hot and fade if you're not careful and when wet loose some braking ability, Disc brakes are safe anywhere and in any weather. Now there is always discussion of Disc brakes locking up and sliding the tires. You can do this with stock T brakes to. Just pump the brakes and you are right back to braking. Another plus is when the young hot rod guys come over to look at the cars the zero in on the Willwood brakes right away and they start getting interested.

I have heard nothing but good reports on disc brakes from those that run them. Of course, they have already gotten past the idea of their jarringly modern look on a vintage car. Some modern racing cars have a cooling shroud around the discs that you can see on pit stops or in garage shots. Red Bull is sometimes under 2 seconds on those pit stops so you have to look quick!

I wonder if the shroud idea couldn't be adapted for Model Ts? If I saw some sort of black painted drum rather than a shiny disc it would go a long way toward getting the disc brake idea past my nose.

i cant get over the hidious look. why didnt someone make a big sheet metal cover to hide it. looking like a r/m drum?. certainly with that overkill size, heat dissapation wouldnt be a problem.
a customer is running them on a sedan. one disk doesnt run true. bleeding the system was a chore.
i recently pulled the motor to replace a broken low drum & fried electrical 12v system. i dont want to see the car again.
all the added stuff on a sedan made the job miserable. warford, alternator, juice brake master & resivoir, fixed driver seat, turn signal spagetti, broke bendix, c exhaust, a carb. every added piece adds to the agrivation & time.
all this added stuff was installed by different people. i wont get involved in fixing this nightmare of problems. (please pardon my digression.) i am no purist, but, a line must be drawn. when is a model t no longer a model t?

i have small drum period outside contracting brakes coordinated with a stock narrow brake band. i can easily lock them any time. local topography varies & i do take her up to the mountains on occasion.
i suppose if a lived in the mountains my perspective might change, or i would drive a mazda miata instead.

you own it. you can do as you please.


.

I have a well maintained stock braking system on my T and I find it to be very adequate for the careful driving I do in the rural, suburban and city areas in and around my north Houston suburban city.

It is very flat here and I think I’d probably have Rocky Mountain brakes if I lived in a hilly or mountainous area.

I wouldn’t even consider disc brakes unless I had a hopped up car and was doing serious high speed touring.

I installed disc brakes (and floating hubs) after an experience on the Covered Bridges tour in southern Indiana. Without going into detail, I had experiences both going down a steep hill and climbing a steep hill where I a.) almost didn't get it stopped in time to avoid a collision & b.) would not have been able to hold it from rolling backwards when the engine threatened to quit.

Driving with disc brakes is more like driving a modern car. With gentle pressure you'll slow down nicely and can ease it to a stop where you want it to stop. They work well when wet and are effective in reverse, unlike some other systems. By careful adjustment, you can leave the transmission brake as a backup in the unlikely event that the disc brakes fail.

One advantage of having a separate braking system is that you are not stressing the transmission brake drum on a steep, long descent. The disc brakes dissipate heat nicely and have never shown any tendency to fade. Me, I consider them to be one of the smartest additions I made to my Model T. What good is being able to go unless you're able to stop just as reliably.

Note: when someone points out the disc brakes on my Model T I just tell them that Henry was ahead of his time......

Downside - Looks

Upside - the best performing brakes under any circumstances. Oh, and no permanent modifications required if the next owner decides they don't like them. There are a few things to watch for when installing the brakes - the most significant in my mind is that excess end play in the axles will necessitate pumping the brakes. If the end play is in reasonable tolerance, this is not an issue. With a bit of care the stock T brake can be adjusted to engage if the hydraulic system were to fail.

I use hydraulic drum brakes that I began using before these disk brakes were available. My drums are less obvious but most vintage car people would know they are not "correct", OK by me.

Flatlanders who drive their T's at modest to moderate T speeds are probably just fine with stock (preferable line large drum) brakes.

Your car, your money. Please stay safe whatever your choice is.

Until last year, I had 5 Model T's and one Model A. Because of not enough storage space, I "came to my senses" and sold one Model T.....didn't want to sell, but HAD to ! One thing I miss is that the Model T I sold had very good brakes, that is, "comparatively speaking" for stock Model T's. It was a '23 Touring but had a large drum rear end, and those large drum brakes would very easily lock up the rear wheels with the emergency lever. Any time I needed to make a harder that normal stop than the foot pedal/transmission drum brake could provide, I merely had to add braking power with the emergency lever & rear wheel brakes. This makes me think that a good choice for the average driver grade Model T would be stock large drum rear wheel brakes that would operate as factory built by emergency brake hand lever operation, but also, additionally hooked up to actuate by means of additional linkage to the foot brake pedal with an equalizer ( perhaps a single cable with pulley equalizer) to actuate rear wheel brakes by depressing foot pedal, and linkage adjusted to activate both rear wheel brakes, just barely BEFORE stock transmission brake takes over. What do you think,......??? .....harold

Sorry Walt,....symultaneous typing! .....harold

right on harold. 3 of my 4 t's have large drums. took rockeys off one due to their danger in reverse situations. on the 2 t's i drive most, i added an emergency handle extension for easy access when extra braking is needed. otherwise the wide brake band does a very good job with kevlar lining.
either way the brakes will lock up the rear wheels.

2nighthawks wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:48 pm

This makes me think that a good choice for the average driver grade Model T would be stock large drum rear wheel brakes that would operate as factory built by emergency brake hand lever operation, but also, additionally hooked up to actuate by means of additional linkage to the foot brake pedal with an equalizer ( perhaps a single cable with pulley equalizer) to actuate rear wheel brakes by depressing foot pedal, and linkage adjusted to activate both rear wheel brakes, just barely BEFORE stock transmission brake takes over. What do you think,......??? .....harold

It works for a Model TT truck.
MAKING MODEL TT TRUCK PARKING EMERGENCY BRAKES to SERVICE BRAKES
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p133282

Here is my story.

16 years ago I built my speedster and put RM brakes on it. I also had and still have an original Warford. I can not tell you exactly how many years it was after that, but not many before I took the RM's off and put on Texas T Discs (It was before BIrdhaven). Following is my standard comment about the disc brakes:

THEY JUST WORK!!!

Further explanation if you care to continue reading. This is my experience.

I am going to be the first to say the Ford transmission brake does work well in many cases but not all. There are also many potential failure points between the transmission brake and the rear wheels. You should understand why I mention this later.

When I installed my brand new RM brakes in 2005, I followed the instructions as much as I could. This included making sure the adjustment of the RM brakes and internal Ford transmission brake occurred at the same time so that the RM's complemented the Ford transmission brake. Since then I have learned that modern RM's are known to not work well in reverse and this adjustment instruction (I believe in part) was also to make sure you have braking both going forward and in reverse. In addition since my rear chassis was lowered by reversing the eyes on the rear spring, the RM brake rods interfered with the parking brake rods. In addition to this clearance issue with the parking brake rods I could not get full travel on the parking brake. The RM equalizer was hitting the bottom of the pan and did not allow enough travel of the hand brake to properly apply the rear parking brake.

Sometimes the RM's worked great going forward but sometimes I just rolled through stop signs. I now believe the reason may be I was to gentle in applying the RM brakes. I believe the modern RM's are supposed to be self energizing going forward but not backwards. I do not believe the original RM's were self energizing in either direction. I now wonder if being to gentle in applying the RM brakes defeats the self energizing "feature". I would still never use them again.

My first turning point was early on with RM brakes. I was test driving my speedster after arriving at a speedster run to tune it for the run and missed a shift with the Warford. The Warford was in neutral and I hit the brakes to slow the car down to stop so I could get the Warford back into gear. Hitting the brakes killed the engine and the car kept rolling as if I had never applied the brakes. The brakes had been working great up to this point. It turns out the transmission brake had been doing the stopping. I had no parking brakes as the RM's at that time were also the parking brake. I was lucky and was on a relatively flat road and was able to whip the car around and bring it to a stop in the dirt at the side of the road. At this point I readjusted the RM's and adjusted the Ford transmission brake so that it no longer worked. That also meant I had VERY poor brakes in reverse.

My second experience was on a speedster run sponsored by the San Diego club. We were running in intermittent rain and wet roads. There were several times I had to use low and reverse to to stop the car. I had to be very careful to not get the Warford into neutral.

After I got home from that run I picked up the phone and ordered my Texas T disc brakes. When I backed my car out of the garage and was halfway down my 30 foot dive way I hit the brakes for the first time going in reverse. I left a 3 inch skid mark on my drive way. If you want to drive your car you WILL NOT regret Texas T Disc brakes. I will never use any thing other than disc brakes on any Model T that I own unless it is a show car.

I believe the disc brakes require about 1 inch of pedal travel, the transmission brake now works at about 1 inch off the floor board (test by disconnecting the disc brake), the original parking hand brake works as it should, and you get to drive your car with out insane time adjusting the braking system.

THEY JUST WORK!!!

Thank you,
Terry

My biggest question is why are so many of you driving in reverse? If my T did not have reverse I probably would not care.

Most trailers have fairly steep ramps!!

I installed disc brakes on my 25 coupe in 2008. I had just finished restoring the car, a two year project. The Florida Winter Tour was my first tour. Luckily some folks took me under their wing and got me through. We are now life long friends. But, more than once, some modern driver pulled out in front of me, and it was all I could do to keep from hitting them. I came home and ordered the kit from the original guy, Bill Tharp from Colorado. It took me one afternoon to install them. We tour on a regular basis, and those brakes have saved me at least once on every tour, again some modern driver gets me in trouble. I don't know anyone who has installed and used them, that will take them off. I think that sums it up.

Love my disc brakes. I left the regular brake in the trans in case of a break in the line. It is so nice to be able to stop when I need to. Clyde

Whatever your choice, don't let the shamers sway your decision.

I'm running a stock setup and am fully aware that I'm taking my chances. For now, I want the stock experience with my T...including wooden coils, etc. And I also have a period/visual thing going on with my car. Discs would be out of place.

If I do change my mind, it'll be because I want to, not because someone shamed me into it.

Regardless of your brake setup, a model T should always be driven as if it has no brakes. Trying to make a Model T into a modern car is a fools journey.

Regardless of your brake setup, a model T should always be driven as if it has no brakes. Trying to make a Model T into a modern car is a fools journey. Cars with aux transmissions always need extra brakes of some sort, and they need to be 100% functional. You pick what functional means.

Dan, I recently saw the brake assy kit that you have available and have to say they Really look nice! Most all people would not notice and they look appropriate on a Model T not like the Hugely over sized disc brake kits so popular now.

Got say Dan Great Job!!

I have seen pictures of Dan's brakes and I second Gene's remarks

I quite agree about Dan’s brake kit!! Almost invisible!! I have one. The only thing I added was the self adjusting kit (got it from Rock Auto)

Gee guys, I have looked over this thread carefully several times without seeing the kit that Dan has described. Can someone smarten me up?

Yes, Dan, Please enlighten us? What brake set up do you have available? Myself, I think the standard set up is appropriate if you are driving at Model T design era speeds and conditions. My exception to the rule is to have something extra if running a Ruckstell.

Jonah D'Avella

What size rear end did you have?

I'm running 3:1 in a stock rear axle...wouldn't mind having a Ruckstel though...just can't afford one. I also rarely drive my car over 35 mph and the modern Rockies only work going forward, not backwards. So forget them holding you on any hill...they wont! But those Model T Ranch brakes sure will, but then so will Larry Sidemore's AC brakes and the Original Rockies (which work totally different than Bud's version of them), they actually have 2 cam levers on them to adjust the both the forward braking and the reverse braking. I was suppose to draw them for Larry "Original" Smith, but the drive I had all the pictures on was destroyed in the Creek Fire a few years back, so I've been slowly reacquiring what I've lost in an effort to fulfill my promise to Larry and draw those Rockies of his (much better set up than Bud's Rockies, I especially like the cable and pulley equalizer, always pulls even, none of that screwing around with rods and clevis pins nonsense).


John W. Stoltz's Model T Ranch Brakes
They're hardly noticeable between the original brakes and John's...they're about as noticeable as the Rockers, yet work a lot better and a lot cleaner looking installation too!