Fun Project Voltage Regulator?

[Hudson29]

The Fun Projects web site is down and Birdhaven/Texas T Parts are out of stock on the 6v voltage regulator.I just tried Lang's and they also are out of stock.

I would like to get one of these for my new project. i fitted one to the '23 years ago & its nice to drive without having to worry about the battery getting to little or too much charge. Back in the time of the Model T batteries were frequently serviced & replaced. I would imagine at least part of the issue with the short life must have been the charging issues.

Does any supplier have these in stock now? Any word on when these regulators will be back in production?

[RajoRacer]

I've heard the same - Not Available ! You might want to order a REX 6v. negative ground diode cut out from Snyder's.

[Hudson29]

I have not heard of these. How are they better than the regular cutout?

[RajoRacer]

Diode is an one way electrical component whereas the old style cut out is mechanical.

[TRDxB2]

I have not heard of these. How are they better than the regular cutout?

Absolutely better. The original cutouts are a electrical/mechanical relay with points open and closing OR sticking shut (draining battery as it runs the generator). A diode is an electrical component that allows current to only flow in one direction. Replacing the relay in a cutout with a diode is an easy fix.

[Rich Huggins]

Try it you will like it no more stuck points

[otrcman]

A solid state CUTOUT performs exactly the same function as the original relay type cutout. It cuts the connection between the battery and the generator when the engine isn't running. If you didn't have the cutout, the battery would try to spin the generator when the engine wasn't running. As the other guys have said, the diode is more reliable -- no more stuck points.

A VOLTAGE REGULATOR provides two benefits:

Benefit #1: It has a solid state (diode) cutout built in.

Benefit #2: It regulates the charging voltage so it tapers down as the battery reaches full charge. Once the battery reaches full charge, the regulator provides sufficient current to keep all your electrical loads supplied but does not overcharge the battery. This is far easier on the battery than continuing to hammer away at full charge when the battery is fully charged

This is the fundamental difference between a "cutout" and a "regulator". The cutout was a more primitive device, merely preventing the battery from trying to run the generator backwards when the engine isn't running. A regulator performs both functions.

As Hudson29 points out, the life of a car battery used to be about a year. Today it's not unheard of for a battery last 10 years. The basic design of a car battery hasn't changed so much as the way it is charged.

[Steve Jelf]

There are several other parts dealers. Check with Bob's, Chaffins, Antique Auto Ranch, Smith & Jones, Snyder's, etc.

[Ron Patterson]

The FunProjects voltage regulator modulates the output of the Model T generator only to the extent that the battery "needs" charging.

[jab35]

Ron, are the FP regulators or for that matter, any of the FP electronics parts even being made? I read someplace that the IC for the regulators was no longer available and someone was attempting to reverse engineer a regulator using 'new' generation components, but expressing little hope of success? Thanks, jb

[dunoon]

I got on the site to ask the same question, and somebody beat me to it. I've checked most vendors and nobody has any regulators. Looks like it might be a long wait.

[Hudson29]

I have tried several of the vendors without luck on these regulators. This device seemed to me to be one of those things that would never be out of production, it just solved too many problems. I just installed a spendy new Optima 6v battery and really want to preserve it. The one on the '23 with the FP regulator has been going for years.

I hope someone will jump in here and fill this void.

[Andy Loso]

i just revcieved 2 in the last month. I used on on a customers car and had a second for inventory, but people tend to have a sixth sense for when I get in hard to get items. Call Birdhaven and have them put your name on the list. The volatage regulator is the only way to go.

[Hudson29]

I spoke with a very nice & helpful lady at Birdhaven back in December when I was trying to order parts from FP. She had the brake light kit but said EVERYTHING else was backordered with no info on when it might be available. Has anyone spoken with someone there with more specific information?

I believe I am on the B/O list for the VR with them but it might be a good idea to check & see if I remember it correctly. I don't always . . . .

[Afrazer]

I was on their back order for a regulator for a few months then got a call saying it was on its way and I have it now. I believe they are making them but at a slow rate

[Hudson29]

Thanks David, I called and found that I am indeed on the list. I was told that they are in production and will dribble in bit by bit. There is a waiting line . . .

[Afrazer]

A long wait it was. But I am very pleased with the part, so after having it on the car it was worth the wait.

[critterpainter]

Paul
Perhaps if you bought an earlier T you would not have that issue

Currently Hudsonless Bill

[Luke]

I read someplace that the IC for the regulators was no longer available and someone was attempting to reverse engineer a regulator using 'new' generation components, but expressing little hope of success? Thanks, jb

Jim,

Although I've never seen a commercial unit (I always make these things myself) I can't see that they'd be anything but a simple electronic shunt regulator.

They could be analogue, but are more likely switch-mode. The one I designed (but need to complete/write up) is a switch mode. It uses an extremely common IC - there will be tens if not 100's of millions of them around the world, which is why the whole thing costs less than a tenner.

I'd be a little surprised if it was componentry holding up these units. I'd expect that in a fairly short timeframe any competent engineer could either design from scratch, or alter an existing design as necessary, to use current components.

Unfortunately things are a bit busy for me presently, but if you get stuck let me know and I'll see if I can find time to finish mine and draw it up.

[MKossor]

Luke, you are right on mark. The ubiquitous 555 timer is an obvious candidate for such a project for the electronics hobbyist although one skilled in the art would likely choose a shunt switching regulator controller. They are specifically designed for that purpose with built in features to support the application (under/over voltage lock out, current limiting, over temperature shut down, etc.) and also cost less than $1.

I have functional designs for both implementations, schematics captured and simulated in Spice. So WHY haven't I posted them for the DIYer here? Very simple; John Regan, spent a lot of time and effort on designing the FP VR for the vintage car community as a simple drop in solution anyone could benefit from. It was not as trivial a task as one may first think it to be. I recall reading the trials and tribulations John had with stability (it is a closed loop control system after all) and reliability operating in a hostile automotive environment (Temperature cycling, voltage transients, ignition noise, vibration, etc.). John refined the design into a stable, reliable, manufacturable solution. He devised 6 variants (6V, 8V, 12V in Ford script and non-Ford Scrip housings) which required significant investments in tooling for the housing, including royalty payments to Ford. Fortunately for John, the FP VR became widely popular through word of mouth here on the forum, the Model A and other car Forums where the FP VR became preferred choice over the standard cutouts. I say fortunately because despite the retail price I would guess it took a lot of sales to recover the investment in time and tooling to bring a commercial viable product to market; including all the overhead to build, stock and provide customer support.

I thought about all this when pondering posting my schematics for a DIY VR design here on the forum. It would have certainly been of popular thread; Wow, a $5 VR! What impact would it have? A few with basic to moderate electronic knowledge and skills would benefit by building one for themselves. Perhaps an enterprising reader would seize the opportunity use the information to make and sell low cost, pre-assembled circuit boards for DIY cutout conversions kits, that would be nice. A larger group with sufficient mechanical skills to dis-assemble their cutout, and devise a method of mounting and wiring the circuit board inside the cutout would benefit.

In the end, I decided against posting my VR designs here for two very simple reasons. Out of respect for John for the work he did for the vintage car community bringing the FP VR to the masses and the damage it would inflict; discouraging others from investing their time, effort and money to design, develop, produce and market future Model T parts and accessories for the larger Model T community.

But John sold FP and the VR is no longer available... Perhaps for the short term as the new owner ramps up for production as is my understanding from folks who are on the FP VR waiting list, one does exist. I doubt posting a DIY VR solution will speed up VR availability at best and could discourage the new owner from continuing VR production at worse. Now if you were willing to provide a competitively priced, drop in VR along with the night and weekend customer support that goes with it, that is another story completely.

[TRDxB2]

Luke, you are right on mark. The ubiquitous 555 timer is an obvious candidate for such a project for the electronics hobbyist although one skilled in the art would likely choose a shunt switching regulator controller. They are specifically designed for that purpose with built in features to support the application (under/over voltage lock out, current limiting, over temperature shut down, etc.) and also cost less than $1.
I have functional designs for both implementations, schematics captured and simulated in Spice. So WHY haven't I posted them for the DIYer here? ......

Was wondering why its necessary to put the VR inside the Cut-Out as opposed to a a black-box setup at the battery site (would be simpler and easier to DIY) Update the cut-out with a diode if you like. Pictures found on the internet

[Hudson29]

I'm glad we are respecting the investment that John Reagan & the new owner of Fun Projects have in this product. We all need to support those who support us. I will wait for Birdhaven to fill my order and should my cut out quit cutting out I'll come up with some sort of plan B.

[Hudson29]

Paul
Perhaps if you bought an earlier T you would not have that issue

Currently Hudsonless Bill

Great to hear from you! This car started life without a genny but one was fitted later on. I'm just gunna fix it & drive it.

[MKossor]

Was wondering why its necessary to put the VR inside the Cut-Out as opposed to a a black-box setup at the battery site

To some, the lure of the Model T is experiencing the imperfections and limitations of early automotive technology. ANY "Improvements", especially non-period correct and obvious accessories are deeply frowned upon within this group. The presence of a period correct water pump and/or distributor on a Model T has been the basis for several spirited forum discussions.

For others, emphasis is more focused on Model T preservation and driving experience. Improvements are generally more accepted if they are undetectable, drop in, replacements with superior performance and benefit compared with original functions (Voltage Regulator, Neoprene seals, Aluminum pistons, maintenance free timer, Kevlar bands, etc.). No permanent modifications to the car necessary and can revert back to full stock if/when desired; albeit some easier than others.

From a practical engineering perspective, it would make much more sense and be easier to house the Voltage Regulator in an external black box with good thermal design not subject to engine temperatures.

[Luke]

In case anyone is interested in the tech, I use a TL494, which is a 'proper' PWM controller.

Detail on these, including app notes etc, is available from Texas Instruments - https://www.ti.com/product/TL494

TL494's are used in many PC power supplies around the world. Often the circuit board of these PSU's will also have a high-current schottky diode, which can be used in the (Model T) regulator design, or directly as a 'cut-out' diode. Schottky diodes have a very low forward resistance, which is desirable for a number of reasons.

So, if you happen to have an old PC languishing in the back shed it's likely you'll also have almost everything you need to make a voltage regulator for your T, and/or replace the mechanical cutout - without spending any money.

Now, with regard to the comments on commerce that have been made; I decided when I joined this forum that I was here as a guest and I wouldn't respond to such, for the most part I was happy just to contribute and assist where I could - for me this 'helping hand' is the essence of such fora. I'd like to think it's been clear over time that I have interest neither in selling any product or service, nor trying to destroy anyone's business.

In fact it was out of regard for the latter that I chose not to publish my electronic timer design alongside the coil tester I was working on as it quickly became obvious it could upset a commercial producer of such things, and that was never my intent.

In the time the coil tester (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9072) has been available it seems to me that there have been a few people that have built one, and pleasingly several people have contributed back to that project. The result has been a feature-rich device that is inexpensive and able to be made by anyone who has a few skills or would like to learn them. Ultimately it's contributed to the general body of knowledge which I think this has helped all of us here.

Coming back to a regulator. Much like the coil tester, or an electronic timer, I imagine there would only be a few who'd be interested in going down the track of making such a thing, or contributing to its design. By far the majority of people would probably prefer to pay someone else for a finished product that works well and has proven itself over time - a free regulator design is unlikely to affect their volume of sales.

However it could be that a superior device might result from a community project. It may even be that a/the commercial producer would pick up the community design and produce units based on that - after all the design itself would freely available to them just as to anyone else.

Anyway that's speculation; making money out of you is not of interest to me, someone else can do that, but before I do expend effort on writing up a regulator, and/or timer, perhaps one should first enquire as to whether there's any interest in such?

[JohnH]

Some time ago I designed a regulator for the T. I haven’t actually tried it in the Model T, but only bench tested it using a power supply, and it worked well in that situation. No guarantees therefore, and I’m merely presenting it as an idea for further thought. It works by short circuiting the generator output when the battery reaches 7V. In this manner it works like the well known ‘grounding switch’, albeit automatically. Once the battery voltage begins to fall, the MOSFET is switched off, allowing charging to recommence, and the cycle starts again.

[jab35]

John: Thanks for sharing. In my opinion, this article contains useful background info and I think it contributes to this discussion, thanks. https://www.cool386.com/regulator/regulator.html