drive shaft and rear end rebuild

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Jim
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drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:52 pm

Hi

I purchased my first model T last fall (1925 roadster with a 26/27 rear end) and have been getting it ready for spring this winter. Since the previous owner didn't know if the rear end had Babbitt or bronze thrust washers in it I've pulled the rear end to have a look. Lots of surprises, mostly not good. It does have babbitt but look pretty good considering. However the ring gear is way past its best before date. The lub was a heavy grease that won't flow and is extremely dirty. Pinion is almost as bad as the ring gear. I have a spare rear end that came with the car and the ring gear on first glance looks like it might have some potential. I'll make that call when I get it cleaned up a bit more. No spare drive shaft though.

My questions are: I'm rebuilding the drive shaft and have it all apart and the pinion bearing came out in pieces (cage is broken). I don't have a replacement bearing so I'm looking at the part suppliers and the 26 27 non adjustable cartridge is no longer available. If I bye the adjustable pinion bearing what all does it replace ie. do I need to get a replacement sleeve, thrust bearing etc.

I'm also looking at new outer wheel bearings on my axles. Are the new cartridge bearing a good way to go as again I don't have access to good original bearings.

Thanks in advance for any and all comments or ideas on this first rebuild.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:05 am

Jim, the adjustable bearing set-up replaces the sleeve on the driveshaft, the driveshaft bearing and the thrust bearing, ie, the whole bearing/spool assembly. While the adjustment is not absolutely necessary, it will help when setting the gear mesh, so the only downside is the extra cost.

If you cannot source original spiral wound Hyatt axle bearings you could run with the modern solid type replacements, but run them on the inside and put your inner bearings on the outside. Personally, I would stick with standard T bearings on the inside and would use a floating rear wheel bearing set-up on the outside over the cassette type. That means cutting a piece off the end of the axle housings, an irreversible modification that some will frown upon.

Others will have different ideas.
Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:19 pm

Allan, Thanks for the feed back! The adjustable drive shaft bearing sounds like the way to go. I finally got everything torn down this evening and took some initial measurements on my inventory of parts. I did find some good news. All parts are straight, no cracks ( still have to clean up the axle case so haven't looked for cracks in there yet), I have 4 straight axles with the ford script in the key ways, and one ring gear in good serviceable condition.
All of the other gears from both axles seemed to be good too. My drive shaft measured 0.994 at the bushing end but it sounds like the bushing gets a little tight on installation so I'm hoping it will be ok. I was also able to find 4 hyatt axle bearings that measured .494 or better so I thing I can go with those.

My universal joint looks to be in really good shape except a couple of the rivets are ever so slightly loose. How do you go about tightening up those round headed rivets? I'm going to have to decide if I should buy the pinion and ring gear set or go with my ring gear and just buy a pinion gear and hope that they don't make too much noise.

The diff housings all have good thrust washer pins but one. Are these a big issue to pull and replace?

I forgot to measure a couple of other things tonight such as the spider and gear diff gear clearances, and the axle bearing clearances but hopefully all will be ok as the parts don't seem to be badly treated.

When deciding what parts to put back in the differential can I mix and match the best from both rear ends or should I keep gears that have been running with each other together?

Well that's about all of the updates I have for now. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:11 am

Jim, if you take just a little off the square corners on the driveshaft, that will allow the best fit for the bush on the worn section of the shaft. You may not have to ream the bush at all after it is installed.
Drill and tap the thrust plate pins to take a metal thread screw. Fit a screw and use it to pull on to extract the pin.
I'd heat the rivet heads to cherry red and re buck them. Others do it cold.
Parts which have got to know one another seem to get on well. If you can keep them together all the better.
The ring and pinion gear set is always a cause of considerable cogitation. Ideally, they should be replaced as a pair, but budget restraints can over-rule this.
Have you a copy of the Ford service book? It will guide you all the way. The MTFCA rear axle book is also a great help. I have previously posted on how I set up the crown wheel and pinion mesh. I am at varience with some of the instructions.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:13 am

The diff housings all have good thrust washer pins but one. Are these a big issue to pull and replace?

No. One method of removing a pin is to drill a little hole in the center, tap it, put a machine screw in it, and pull the works with a claw hammer.

Do you have the MTFCA axle book to give you correct measurements?
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:50 am

Alan: From your experience, what thickness of the driver's side thrust washer set (steel, bronze, steel) is required to get the ring and pinion gear mesh clearance into the 'ball park' zone? The mtfca guidebook suggests 0.380" is not enough AND additional shim(s) under the ring gear will be needed. I'll carefully do the fitting to get it right, but I'd like to get close on first try and also avoid ring gear shims if possible. I have the Funprojects DS bearing, fixed position version. This is a '26.

Thanks, jb


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:55 pm

James, the shims behind the ring gear are a no-no to some, me included.
I mentioned that I do it differently, and such shims are not necessary.Step by step it goes like this.
*Sort through a pile of steel thrust plates and select 4 of as great a variance in thickness as you can.
*Assemble the axles and diff centre, fit any two steel plates and a new bronze thrust washer and assemble all into the left axle housing.
*Place the other two steel plates and the second new bronze thrust and lower the right hand axle housing in place. Lightly do up 3 of the bolts around the housings, leaving the whole assembly free enough to turn by hand.
*New bronze thrusts will be too thick to allow the housings to meet. With feeler gauges, measure the gap between the housings. This will tell you how much has to be removed from the bronze thrusts, plus .003-.005" for clearance.
* Machine the two bronze thrusts as required, but make them .010-.012" different in thickness.
*Now you have a set of steel plates and bronze thrust washers to use that will enable you to shift the whole assembly left or right within the housings simply by juggling the the order in which they are fitted. In the rare case that a satisfactory set-up cannot be achieved, stationary shims behind the steel plates can be used, but the shim thickness has to be removed from the bronze thrusts.
*Some sources and some fitters advise that the gear mesh is then set by measuring the backlash, and that may have been the factory method. There is a better way. I can refer you to some drawings and instructions in one of Ted Aschman's "Tinkerin' Tips" books which detail getting a better rolling fit between the gears, that fit being independent of any set measured backlash.

Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:19 pm

Good question James, and thanks for the reply Allan. I was wondering the same thing about shimming behind the ring gear especially since neither of the diffs I tore down had shims there. I like your idea Allan about measuring the gap in the cases with feeler gauges. However I don't have access to a lathe to machine the bronze thrust washers. Is there another way or just go to a machine shop.

I'm also trying to figure our the shifting the axles left and right for proper alignment. The Model T Service manual doesn't address any measurements, backlash or proper gear meshing procedures at all. What is the reference point for moving the ring gear left and right. Is the drive shaft and pinion mounted to the left half of the casing when this is being done? I don't have the rear end rebuild manual that has been referenced many times here, I suspect that that may answer some of my knowledge deficit.

Any ways tonight I finished getting the axle bearing shims out and had some closer look at the gears and spiders. I think I can put a reliable diff together from what I've got with just some additional parts.

Thanks again. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:28 pm

Thanks, Allan. That makes sense to me. The mtfca book says new bronze (0.200" thick) thrust and nos steel washers (0.090" each) will not be thick enough to properly mesh the ring and pinion, and to use a shim under the ring gear to make up the rest. Are the new parts not thick enough to get correct lash?

How do you measure pinion-ring gear lash? I don't have the tinkering tips article that describes the method to fit ring-pinion lash. Some on this forum have used paper of various thicknesses between the gears, and lead or solder wire run between the gears and measured for thickness, and dial indicator lash measurements. What do you use and what values of lash do you recommend?

Thanks, jb

PS, Jim the mtfca book recommends the ring gear should rotate back 0.010 +/- 0.002" from contact with pinion. Lock pinion & move ring gear to contact pinion in one direction and reverse ring gear to contact pinion in other direction to get these lash measurements. And repeat in four places on ring gear 90 degrees apart. In my mind, if a 0.005" thick strip of paper could be run between the teeth over a full rotation of ring gear meshed with pinion with some resistance, all would be ok. The paper method should indicate if the lash is the same across the full length of the teeth. Paper should indicate 'high/low spots in gear face contact.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:20 pm

Jim, I have never found two new bronze thrusts which did not require some machining down. If it is ever the case, it would be more acceptable to fit shims behind the steel discs. Some resort to painstakingly working the bronze thrusts down with emery paper on a flat plate. By measuring what you need to remove first, a machine shop will save a lot of time.
The paper rolling and solder trick is used to set/measure the backlash, but backlash is not my aim. I set the mesh up to give the best rolling fit, and when that is achieved, the backlash is whatever it is.
There is a bevel on the back of the pinion gear and the crown wheel. These need to be in line to get the correct full width contact between the gear teeth. This is set by adjusting the pinion gear depth, either with an adjustable pinion bearing or gaskets between the bearing and the diff housing.
Once the pinion depth is set, you then play with the steel disc/bronze thrust bearing combinations to get the best running fit between the gears. This is read by bluing the pinion and marking the crown wheel. The aim is to get a full width mark across the teeth, that mark being in the centre of the tooth face, neither too deep nor too far out on the face.
Most original back axles I have ever pulled down show wear on the pinion teeth well out on the outside end and corresponding wear on the ring gear. The assembly works, the time taken to assemble it worked for the assembly line, but with the time we have, we can do better.
"Tinkerin' Tips", volume two shows the diagrams and explains the procedure. Beg/borrow/steal a copy to see how to read the bluing trick.

Others do it differently, and it works for them.

Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:57 pm

Just a quick update. I was able to go out to a new acquaintance on the weekend and got a lot of new used parts that will replace some of my mangled ones. I still have to order from the vendors but the list is about half. I did get a used axle at a good price but I'm not sure I will be able to use it when I get playing around with it. The brand new sleeve at the pinion end is a loose fit and I've been told that the sleeve will shrink if I heat it and let it cool on the shaft. I''m skeptical because in my idea it will only shrink back to its original size and not get smaller to fit tightly. We'll see.

I'm putting off ordering parts until I get the hogs head off as there is a groove in the low drum and I want to see the condition of the band linings and if there is a rivet causing the problem or if its a groove previously made. I was able to get the 10 easiest bolts out of the hogs head this evening....saved the other two for a fresh start. Any words of wisdom for pulling the hogs head by myself in a single door roadster?

Any way it'll be nice to start putting things back together some day instead of constantly tearing apart. jim

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:19 am

My only suggestion on removing that heavy cast iron hogshead is to use a hoist or a lift. I've never removed one in the car, so I don't know if you have to get the steering column or anything else out of the way.

I don't intend to ever use the stock pinion bearing again. Most modern "upgrades" aren't, but in my opinion the FP pinion bearing really is.
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Steve: Are either versions of the Funprojects pinion bearings even being made anymore? FP items seem to have disappeared after the business was sold.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by DanTreace » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:28 pm

Bought my recent new modern pinion bearing open spool version from Chaffins. They make a nice one, send your core and get the modern from them.
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:13 pm

Another update:
I pulled the hogs head tonight. Brute force and a little finesse! Had a hard time breaking the bead on the gasket, ended up using a jack under the starter corner and standing on the running board to get it to pop. Even then getting it out the cab was very awkward the exhaust pipe is coming right out when trying to get it back in for sure.

It looks like the low speed band front corner was rubbing on the drum and causing the grove. One band doesn't appear all that round and I've read on here that that is important. Another band seems to be twisted a bit too. I'm really thinking detachables as I'm not sure I will be too interested in ever pulling the head again. I didn't see them in the catalogues I've got, but should find them somewhere.

thanks for reading. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Adam » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:38 am

Allan wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:55 pm
*New bronze thrusts will be too thick to allow the housings to meet.
That’s the way it used to be... You probably had some thrust washers that were a few years old the “last” time you did it... The most recent axle rebuild I did was last March. I buy brass thrust washers 10 at a time and was out so had to get more. They were all UNDERSIZE. I tried another manufacturer and they were undersize too. Discussions with 2 vendors said they had many complaints over the years with the “oversize” bronze thrust washers, so make them a little smaller now. Pretty much all you can do with the currently available parts now is to use the shims. I will be making a small quantity of oversize steel thrust washers that are properly hardened for my own use. I don’t plan to sell them as they will require individual machining to thickness on a surface grinder which most hobbyists don’t have access to.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:23 pm

Adam: What is the thickness of the 'New', thinner brass thrust washers? The pre-covid ones I'm using are 0.200".

This gets back the Steve Jelf's post about making replacements to spec, or at least offering a range of sizes that includes original stock part specifications. I can understand making brass washers 'too thick' because these are fairly easy to machine and mate with servicible used steel washers, but intentionally making them 'too thin' and as a result having to manufacture, heat treat and surface grind mating steel parts to compensate, well,,,,,


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:20 pm

Thanks for the heads up on the new thinner bronze thrusts Adam. Stationary shims behind the steel plates are OK, but what a pain having to use them. It remains to be seen if I can achieve the same neat fit using them. Being able to custom fit oversize bronze ones was fine. Now it may mean fitting shims and still having to machine the bronze ones.

Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Adam » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:18 pm

jab35 wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:23 pm
Adam: What is the thickness of the 'New', thinner brass thrust washers?

They’ve been coming thru from both the manufacturers for well over a year at .199”.

They used to be in the .204” to .208” range which allowed for quick & easy custom fitting without shims.
Last edited by Adam on Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:50 pm

I have a stack of un-machined brass ones if any interest - I believe they mic'd. at .266.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:10 pm

Changing the subject slightly, what's the terrain like where you plan to drive. If it's hilly, you might want to consider swapping out the stock 11 tooth pinion for a 10 tooth while you've got it apart. It does make a difference and was a common practice back in the day in the hilly parts of the country. I also agree that the modern pinion bearing is a definite improvement over the original.

Take a close look at the axles - if they are scored from the bearing cages you might want to consider replacing them. In the end, I put in new axles and floating safety hubs along with disc brakes. Not cheap, but I believe it makes for much greater safety. Little worry of an axle breaking and a wheel falling off (which does happen....) Good luck in your project. At the very least there is comfort in knowing the mechanical condition of your car.
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:41 am

Thanks, Adam. jb


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:46 pm

Well I'm done getting things apart and today and I ordered all the new parts that I couldn't get second hand. The only part on back order was the driveshaft bushing at the universal. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be able to start re-assembling.

I got a set of detachable bands used and was glad to find them. I've ordered new linings and springs for them. I'm wondering how other people get slightly stretched bands (slightly oval, more then 4 or 5 inches between the tabs) back to round. I've searched the forums here and haven't seen much other then they should be round and not too open.

For the next few days I'm going to wash and paint parts so that I can scratch them up while putting them back together. :)

Thanks everyone for your replies. jim
















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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:50 pm

I use an old T brake drum in the vice for a mandrel - there should only be a couple - 3 inches between the ears.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:46 pm

RajoRacer - thanks for the idea of the old brake drum. I'm curious if you use heat or what to get the band to take the drum shape? jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:56 am

I use an old drum as a reference too, and make any adjustments/bends by hand, cold. When you pull the ears together, there should be a consistent gap around the drum. Get points too close and the linings will drag, create heat, and wear prematurely. This is the reason I am not a fan of quick change bands being fitted through the cover hole.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:37 am

Thanks Allan, I thought that 'cold' adjustments were the way to go.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Adam » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:27 am

I will add that the only band you should ever install is a genuine Ford script one! They are the correct steel and the correct hardness. Just hard enough to be springy enough that they don’t distort too easily, but not so hard they break easily.

The worst demountable bands out there are stamped “G.M. Co” and seem to show up quite frequently, especially in earlier engines that were converted to quick-change bands. They are much softer, bend too easily and often have lugs that interfere with the inside of the transmission cover.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:27 pm

Well, I just checked and I'm two for three. I have two ford bands and one GM Co. The 3 regular bands that came out are all stamped with a 'E'.

Can I move the detachable lug from the GM Co band to one of these 'E' bands or not? jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 pm

Jim, if you change bands by removing the hogshead, you don't need detachable ear bands. I sell all the ones I come up with, to those who think they are a good idea. You need to make sure you also have the pedal shafts which will allow the fitting of detachable ear bands.

Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:31 pm

Hi Allan

I have the correct pedal shafts and went and got the detachables because as I get older I won't likely want to pull the hogs head again and the detachables will give me the option if and when I should ever need to replace the Kevlar linings I have on order.

Adam's post about the GM Co bands is a red flag now that I've discovered I've got one of them. The non-detachables that came out of my car are stamped with an"E" and seem in good shape other then some distortion. So that's why I was asking about moving the detachable tab to the best one of them. Maybe it shouldn't be done and maybe the "E" bands aren't much better then the GM Co.

Any thoughts. Thanks again. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by speedytinc » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:51 am

If you need to replace kevlar bands with kevlar, you BETTER remove the hogs head. Going thru the inspection cover distorts that perfectly reshaped band. A slightly out of round band introduces that drum breaking friction. REMEMBER KEVLAR IS UNFORGIVING. If you plan to replace a kevlar band with cotton, ok. Go thru the top cover.
Therefore, non demountable bands are ideal if you will stick with kevlar. You may not need to replace kevlar bands. they seem to last forever if done right. Incidently, i just pulled the inspection cover after a good 4-5,000 miles. I have outside adjusting pedal shafts. (previous discussion reminded me to look @ the filter screen magnet)
There was no drum wear and very little metal fuzz. I could see the same machining surface finish i left.
I love kevlar. I run it in all my t's. However, I have a policy to not use them for customer cars.
2 different guys broke 2 low drums each from over adjusting. I warned them. I showed them how to properly adjust them.
I dont have an unlimited supply of good drums.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:14 pm

Thanks Speedytinc. I have the hogs head off and will be putting the new kevlar bands back in before refitting the hogs head so I'm good to go this time.

Does any body know if Lang's detachable bands are ford script or could they also be the GM Co band that I already have. I was looking closely and I can see the difference and they do measure thinner too. You can feel the difference in spring as well.

I was wondering if the GM Co band could go on the reverse drum as it gets the least amount of wear?

What about moving the detachable clip to one of the other bands that was in the car? jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:35 pm

If you use a standard Ford band on reverse, it will most likely never need replacement. Use the two detachable ones on first gear and the brake. Glad you have the cover off. It makes for the best job with no risk of distortion.


Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 pm

Update:

I've got all the parts that I know I need for now. I ordered on Tues and got them on Wed. Less then 24 hrs. I couldn't believe it. I got another ford script detachable band so that the kevlar linings don't drag on the drums as you warned.

I've got the axle manual and have read it cover to cover. I'm working on the drive shaft and all was going fine until I tried to "slip the heated sleeve onto the shaft". The book says to not heat it above 400 F so I'm heating it in an oven to 350 with two oven thermometers checking the thermostat on the oven. It doesn't even come close to slipping on. I'm going to have to drive it on with the old sleeve but I'm afraid that if it isn't perfectly lined up as the book says I'll have to pull it and I don't think with it cool and that tight I have a heavy enough puller. I'm thinking about trying to down size the drive shaft with emery paper but haven't tried that yet. Any ideas welcome.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by speedytinc » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:46 pm

You should be able to drive the sleeve on cold. I never use heat. line up can be trickey. Try putting a line on D/S & sleeve in line with key & niotch with a black marker. Line up & rotate as needed to keep line up as you drive it on.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by kmatt2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:11 am

I have done several drive shaft pinion bearing inner sleeves cold using my 20 ton press. They went right on, a smaller press would probably work fine. The frist time I had to mount the press up high enough to take the stock drive shaft. Make sure to line up pinion keyway with the key notch in the sleeve and don't forget to put the pinion thrust bearing and 2 races on before the sleeve. They don't fit over the sleeve. Start the sleeve with some taps from a dead plow hammer and make sure the driveshaft is square in the press so the force is along the shaft. I used a old thin walled deep socket that matched up with the sleeve to press sleeve on, make sure to stop pressing sleeve so that the pinion key end will fit into sleeve notch.
Last edited by kmatt2 on Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by kmatt2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:11 am

Sorry for the double post that was here.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:47 am

Thanks Kevin and John for the posts.

I had the guide lines on the shaft and sleeve but was still reluctant to drive it on and not be able to remove it. Last night after posting I went rummaging through my tool boxes and found a wheel cylinder hone that I haven't used since probably the eighties when you could still buy rebuild kits for your wheel cylinders. I think I'll try reaming out the new sleeve a little so that I can get a slide on fit when warmed up so that I can make sure of alignment and not have to worry about pulling it again.

I'll let you know how that works. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by speedytinc » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:14 am

Dont hone that sleeve. It must press fit & not turn. Get a gear puller. Not expensive. a simple long 2 arm will work. Might need to clamp arms to keep them under sleeve. c clamp or hose clamp.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:30 pm

So I have the sleeve on 1 inch and only need to go another 2 1/16 and its not moving! I heated it to 350 F and beat on it with a 3 lb hammer and the old sleeve. I'm going to try and see if I can get it to a 20 ton press tomorrow. I can't believe its that tight even when heated to the max. Frustrating evening.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:02 am

Jim: They are a tight fit by design. If you use a press, try removing the new sleeve and greasing the parts before you reinstall. I assume you attempted to install the heated sleeve on a dry shaft, and now that they are locked the lack of lubrication will contribute greatly to the force needed to push the sleeve on the rest of the way. Unfortunately, heating the sleeve in its present location won't help much either, the tight fit on the shaft insures heating the sleeve also heats the shaft and both parts expand together. Good luck on your project, jb


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:07 pm

Well after getting the sleeve 'frozen' on the drive shaft last night, I took it to the garage today and had my mechanic friend try and finish pressing it on with his press. No go. So we tried pulling it with his professional pullers and not a budge. I ended up sacrificing the bushing by cutting it with the angel grinder so that I could pull it off of the shaft. Time to order another one and start again.

I wonder why it just wouldn't go on even with heat as the axle book describes. When the fit was so tight I even went against the advice not to hone the sleeve and actually wore out a set of stones trying to get a looser fit.

If I use lubrication to install the sleeve wouldn't that partially offset the friction fit that holds the sleeve from rotating and resultant wear?

Oh well I have a few days now to contemplate the next attempt.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by kmatt2 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:34 pm

Jim, From your discription it sounds like the drive shaft thrust bearing races & bearing slipped on the drive shaft ok before the new race. Measure the diameter of your driveshaft at the sleve mount area and call your T parts vendor. Tell the vendor your problem and have them measure the ID of the new sleve they are sending to you. Maybe they can find one that will fit your shaft better from their stock. It is also possible that your drive shaft is not stock, check for the Ford script up at the U joint area.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by kmatt2 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:36 pm

There is always the modern DS spool.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:24 pm

Good points Kmatt2, I went right out to the garage to check the Ford script - and it is there on the universal end. I also did a careful measurement at the sleeve end and it is between .999 and 1.001 through the length of the sleeve location.

When I call in my order I'll make sure to mention that and see if they can find a sleeve that will heat up and shrink to that size. Good idea. Thanks. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:33 pm

I would purchase the 'Modern adjustable Drive Shaft Bearing' that most venders supply. I'm refitting my '26 with this currently and in my opinion it's a better design than Ford original ( driveshaft u-joint sleeve tolerance is not critical) with simple, straightforward installation, no heating, no press, hand tool assembly just follow directions it comes with. Best, jb

Clarification added 3/31: Regarding the front driveshaft bushing at U-joint end. Diameter/radial fit still needs to be done by the book. The u-joint thrust fit is not as critical as with original pinion sleeve setup where bushing thrust setting against U joint collar maintains pinion mesh with ring gear. This is clearly spelled out in the instructions.
Last edited by jab35 on Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Pep C Strebeck » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:14 pm

jab35 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:33 pm
I would purchase the 'Modern adjustable Drive Shaft Bearing' that most vendors supply.
kmatt2 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:36 pm
There is always the modern DS spool.

I agree. I have done them both (original and modern) and the modern replacement is a much easier installation. Once installed, it looks exactly the same.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:17 pm

Hi everyone

I'm making progress but a big set back tonight ( I think ).

I've finally got the sleeve on the shaft at the pinion end and the bottom end assembled and all looks great. Nice and tight. I ended up reaming it a lot with a socket and some very course emery paper wrapped around it that I have around. It took about 8 hours of trial and error and 350 degrees of heat but it's on.

When I installed the bushing at the universal end, the drive shaft went in but the pin didn't line up in the universal. Not even close. So I decided to take out the bushing and see what was keeping it from seating as it had to be the problem. The drive shaft pin hole was lined up perfectly with the access hole.

I don't have a puller so I set up the same way as I pushed to old one out - with the old drive shaft and a socket. The axle book said to use a socket with a 1.25 O.D. (15/16) so I found my impact 15/16 and measured it at 1.25. Stuffed it down the tube and .... sheared off two of the rivets in the tube.

Does this make my case a piece of junk? Can I put a couple of tack welds on the outside to make up for the sheared rivets?

Any way, I went and got a 13/16 socket that would clear the two remaining rivets and punched the new bushing out. When I got it out I compared it to the original that I'd removed very closely and they are almost identical in every dimension including the thickness of the bushing rim. What I did find was that the 1/4 inch hole that I drilled in the new bushing was exactly to low in the bushing compared to the old one - the difference I need to line up the pin. I couldn't see any reason in the shaft for it not seating properly so I guess I just need to give it a lot harder love tap when installing it. I may have to find something else to install it with then my 1 1/4 inch socket as it left a bit of a mark in the bushing surface on the first attempt.

Thanks for your help. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Dan Hatch » Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:48 am

If the two rivets did not matter do you think Henry would spent the money to put them there? Either replace the rivets or the tube. Just my 2 cents worth.
Also , the bushing must be faced for the u joint the fit. This should be in the Service Manual and the rear end book. Good luck. Dan
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:32 pm

The sheared rivets are not that difficult to replace. I got a piece of solid round stock and ground four tapered flats on one end so that it could be driven down the shaft until it engaged the rivet heads. This became the buck against the rivet heads. Remove the sheared rivets and place two new ones in the tube. Then fit the buck and you are free to form the new rivets to suit. I have used this process a few times to fit new castings for two piece torque tubes.

Hope this helps, Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:06 pm

Thanks Allan

I was able to pull one of the rivets with a pair of pliers and the other I had to drill out. I've attached a couple of photos just to see if I could.

I stuck a cheap aluminum rivet in the hole to see about fit. I've been informed about a specialty fastener place near here so I'm going there tomorrow to see if they have the structural rivets that seal themselves and have the shear strength and in steel not aluminum so that I don't have the corrosion of two unlike metals happening. (That's one run on sentence!)

We'll see what they say and will default to building the bucking tool if they can't help.
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:48 pm

Latest update

The driveshaft is back together and to speck! All I have left to do is peen the rivet in the universal joint. I ran out of time tonight.

The all steel blind structural rivets I got worked out great and instead of reaming the bushing I ended up having to shim behind it to get it thick enough.

Thanks everyone for your replies and ideas, its good to have a place to get help from people with experience.

Onto the axle re-assembly. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:06 pm

So the drive shaft is completed and standing in the corner wrapped in plastic.

I was installing new thrust washer pins tonight and had to take the first one I tried out and ended up destroying it. It wouldn't sit flush with the case and sat way proud of the hole. The problem is the pins are .250 long and the holes at the edges are between .218 and .221 deep. The axle book talks about filling the bottom of the hole so the pins don't sink in too far but not a mention about sitting proud.

Has anyone come across this before?

I'm debating about beveling the bottom edge of the pin or trying to deepen the hole without making it oversized with the hand drill.

jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by kmatt2 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:59 pm

I assume that you are having problems with the thrust plate pins in the axle housings, not the pins in the differential carrier half's. It sounds like in a prior rebuild someone drilled out the old pin but didn't get it all out due to the taper end on their drill bit. Try carefully using that hand drill and a slightly under size drill bit before you modify the new pins. Go slow and you should be ok.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:48 am

Jim I've got the same thing going on with my '26 differential. Just held the pins in my cordless drill chuck rotated at slow rpm gently kissed grinder wheel to shorten. Dont overdo, it more difficult to make them longer. Do not drill the holes deeper for the reason you stated.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:50 pm

Jab35 - interesting that we are both working on 26's with the same problem. I wonder if its a thing with the improved diffs.

Kmatt2 - I'm going to go and have a closer look at the holes and see if there appears to be any residual pins left from another rebuild - they should be easy to get out if so.

Other wise I'll look at the shape in the bottom of the hole and see what mods will be necessary. Thanks for your suggestions. I'll let you know what happens. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:08 am

Jim: The thrust plates had been turning on the inside of the differential and wore the pins and inside of the housing making new pins a few thousands too long both axles had a groove at the edge of the gear where the washer had worn the axle. With all this wear, I may need thicker brass thrust washers, haven't got that far yet.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:08 pm

I've had a productive weekend

The dif is assembled and in the left half of the casing and I've ordered some ring gear shims today to get things lined up.

I was looking at re-bushing the rear perches while I waited on parts and discovered that one perch is badly worn beyond the bushing. They are of course improved perches and are not available at Lang's. I check a couple of friends I know and they don't have any either. Steve at Lang's said that he was having problems finding them too.

So I can get a good pair of used pre 26 perches and I'm wondering if they are interchangeable to a 26 axle? I checked the bolt size and they are the same and it looks to me like they could work and maybe raise the car about an inch to an inch and a half.

Has any one ever done this, thoughts?

Thanks in advance. jim

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by CudaMan » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:40 pm

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:54 pm

I have a set for sale - was going to use them but got some pancake Hasslers. The one on the right has a new bushing, haven't looke at the one on the left including a bushing in any case. Oilers included
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:01 am

Jim I know the vendors sell ring gear shims, but that does not mean they are a good idea. If you need a shim behind the gear to get the two closer, the same result can be achieved by using the same thickness shim behind one of the steel thrust plates. There is no drive involved in this application. The ring gear shim will introduce another interface between gear and housing, and more chance of movement at that point.
Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:32 am

Jim: I'd suggest these if shims are needed, I would install in differential housing where two pins are located to secure the outer thrust washers. Available in 0.010" and 0.015 ". https://www.modeltford.com/pl.aspx?t=s& ... 010&page=1

Grab those rear spring perches from Frank! Best, jb


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:59 pm

Thanks Frank for the perches, I'm looking forward to getting them early next week.

Allan and James - I'd already ordered the ring shims by the time I saw your posts. I'd ordered them because the axle repair manual suggested using them instead of "moving the diff off of center by shimming the thrust washers". From your comments I can see advantages to both approaches. Have there been problems with the ring shims since the book was written? Would a little lock tight between shims add a little insurance from stopping movement? jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:28 pm

Jim, the ring gear must be tight against the carrier. 10 bolts are used to maintain this tension. The whole is designed to function as one part. The ring gear is manufactured separately for serviceabilty sake, the friction between the gear and carrier being the sacrifice for this. By adding a shim you would effectively doubled that sacrifice.
Shims are best used in stationary applications, like the T rods and main bearings and the magneto coil plate.
Many use shims on the rear axle/hubs to compensate for wear. The best solution is to fit new parts. Second best is a single shim. The problem gets worse if multiple shims are used.
If the rear axle rebuilding manual suggests that shimming the diff off centre by .010 to .015" is a problem, I just wish all my problems were of the same magnitude.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:01 pm

Jim: Have you confirmed that a shim is needed to obtain proper ring gear/pinion gear mesh? I read that information in the book too but am not to the point in my rebuild where I can confirm the need for additional shims. Based on others' experiences posted here, some have noted that the brass thrust washers had to be machined thinner to achieve mesh specifications. Time will tell in my rebuild.

I'm with Allen, if the thing is only 0.015" or so off center, I'm ok with that. Let us know how this turns out in your rebuild. jb


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:46 pm

Another update:

I've got it all re-assembled except for the outer seals, sleeves and bearings. All seems to be looking and feeling really good. As I had the ring shims and shipping makes buying parts in dribs and drabs so painful I went with them. I ended up using .040 to get the spec on the back lash.

Jab35 - I sure didn't end up shaving any off of the thrust washers. I actually made my own shim from some .015 galvanized tin I had around. Used a hole saw, tin snips, and drill press to fabricate it but it looked almost store bought I must say when I got it done. Worked out well as it was just what I needed with one slightly thin steel thrust washer in the mix.

I've been thinking about putting a small (strong as I can find) magnet on the filler plug to attract any metal that develops on the housing from time to time. Sort of a way to keep track of what's going on in there. Has anyone had similar ideas or experience?

I'm hoping to get it off of the bench tomorrow and onto the floor to finish the outer axle stuff and maybe get it all painted up and back in the car on the weekend.

Frank - the perches arrived today with the card and are now on the backing plates. Very nice parts...much,much better than what I had. Thanks.

Thanks everyone for your ideas and help so far. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by DHort » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:43 am

You can purchase a filler plug with a magnet installed in it. Look at Lang's to see if it is the same as the one you plan to make

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:13 am

Lang's & others sell this device "Transmission oil screen". Several people have noted that the magnet deteriorated over time. Others have use it and just laid a strong magnet on the transmission cover or one on the screen wired down. Lots of threads on it
Google Transmission oil screen MTFCA
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1437769410
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1337904607
viewtopic.php?t=12787
https://youtu.be/JqW1g0xBPHA
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1273505137
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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by jab35 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:30 am

Jim: I used Lang's magnetic differential drain/fill plug, it has a very strong magnet. https://www.modeltford.com/item/2532BM.aspx
I don't think the one for the transmission could fit in the differentiaal. Clever work on that shim. jb


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by speedytinc » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:01 am

transmission & diff plug are the same, except for 26-7.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:12 am

Jim, to get .040" I presume you used two .015" and one .010" shim. If this is the case, you now have 4 interfaces between the ring gear and the carrier where the original design is for one. Maintaining a firm and tight fit between the two components is now seriously compromised. The most likely scenario is that the clamping force afforded by the 10 bolts is now diminished at each interface and the gears will move under load, either in power or under braking, making the bolts take a sideways load they were never intended to take.
If you made a shim to go between the housings and the steel discs that was .040" thick, you could eliminate the ring gear shims.

Allan from down under.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:27 pm

diff plug.jpg
diff plug 2.jpg
So this is the plug in my diff filler hole. It doesn't look at all like the part listed for 26-27 plug in the link. Are they interchangeable?


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by speedytinc » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:40 pm

this is the earlier style. Pre 26. Same as transmission.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:45 pm

Jim wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:27 pm
diff plug.jpgdiff plug 2.jpg

So this is the plug in my diff filler hole. It doesn't look at all like the part listed for 26-27 plug in the link. Are they interchangeable?
No. The 26/27 uses a pipe thread and a female type pipe plug.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:55 pm

If it is a Canadian car, it may be correct. Some things changed earlier then the US built cars and some things stayed the same longer. An example would be the casting date on block, I think Canadian cars had them to the end, unlike US that ended around 1921.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:01 pm

So I must have a Canadian 26 - 27 rear end then. Looks like I'll fabricate a magnet on my plug - maybe on the out sided with some epoxy.

Any way, I got the axle drive shaft unit off of the bench today and into the car again. I had a bit of a chore getting the universal into the back of the transmission but eventually got it.

Tomorrow I'll maybe get to the new linings on the transmission bands. Seems like I'm getting closer to a driver. The rad shop is going to take one last look at the rad and see if they can make it do. They say that it is so fragile that as soon as they fix one hole another two spring a leak. We'll see next week.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by speedytinc » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:17 pm

I wouldnt sweat the plug. I have quite a few with the early style plug. I believe they went into early 26. Its like the 3 or 4 different backing plates on a big drum.


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Jim » Sat May 01, 2021 9:00 pm

Well its May 1 and I haven't been on the sight in a while it seems. I'm glad that I'm working but it gets in the way of garage time.

Today I spent the whole day weight lifting the hogs head in and out of the car many times. Finally got it in and bolted down. The peddles are installed and a rough adjustment made. I've read on the forums about the band tool that looks like a 'U' and how some find them really handy and others not so much. Well I'm in both camps after today's time with the T. I couldn't get it to work very well as intended and found that the zip ties worked best for me, but I did find the tool handy when trying to install the springs, washers and nuts. On the brake band I compressed the band and spring with a large screw driver and put the band tool on just the outer edges of the band ears to hold it compressed while I used both hands to install the washer and nut.
On the reverse band I did the same thing and used the band tool wedged down in between the low speed band and the reverse band to hold it compressed while installing the washer and nut. Worked really slick.

Hope this helps somebody some day.

I have lots of things to put back together now but I feels good to be putting things back instead of tearing things apart to get at something.

Thanks everyone for the help on this project. jim


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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Allan » Sun May 02, 2021 7:01 am

On our RHD hogsheads the reverse and brake peals are adjusted on the outside, and only internal adjustment is made on the first gear band. When I replace the hogshead I wire the band ears together with copper wire, leaving the gap between them just a tad wider than the length of the spring. I put the hogshead on with the nut and washer already installed on the first gear pedal shaft, for just a few threads. Could the same procedure be adopted on LHD hogsheads? That way there is no risk of dropping stuff into the innards.
With the external adjusters backed off and with the bands wired just enough to clear the springs, it leaves the maximum room to get the band ears engaged on their respective shafts.
It works for me, except with new springs, which seem to be too stiff and too long.

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Re: drive shaft and rear end rebuild

Post by Curtis Wells » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:08 am

Jim-I sent you a PM concerning this topic. Thank yoou for a reply. Curtis

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