Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

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Vbl
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Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Vbl » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:09 pm

I was recomended a company to weld a crack in my engine block. When he started welding he quickly found out that the steel was rusted thin. Apparently there was something sticky fluid inside the cooling channel that caused this. This is at the top of the engine block.

My question is, is it worth fixing? It's the original engine block from my great grand fathers car and the crack is probably the cause to why it was parked. I do have two other engine blocks that looks like they're in fairly good condition that I got when I got the chance to buy a lot of bodies and body parts, but this engine block is matching numbers with my frame.

If it can be fixed does anyone know how to do it?
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Vidar Blikø

My main forum thread: viewtopic.php?t=541

Restoring my great grand fathers 1926 Model T touring
Restoring my fathers 1985 VW Transporter T3/T25
1973 Mini project
1993 BMW E34 520iAT


Tom Hicks
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:14 pm

Great great grandfathers?
Matching numbers?

If it were mine, I would try to find a way to fix it. Model T's don't have a pressurized cooling system, so it does not take much to keep the coolant in.

And definitely don't throw it away.
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

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ironhorse
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by ironhorse » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:26 pm

534406.jpg
534407.jpg
534408.jpg
You tell me I stole these pictures from a thread a couple of years ago
Metal Stitching would be the best repair . :roll:
Do it right or do it over,your choice. Drive like everyone is out to get you!

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ironhorse
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by ironhorse » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:37 pm

Here's a link to the OP on that engine. 8-)
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/534405.html
Do it right or do it over,your choice. Drive like everyone is out to get you!


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Joe Bell » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:23 pm

I would look at between 2-3 cylinders in the top of the oil galley, 26-7 blocks crack there also from soft plug to center main bolt, another place is exhaust valve into the cylinder. The 26-7 blocks are still common I would find a better block and mill the water jacket side to renumber it to your title. You could get a ton of money in fixing your block and then look like Frankenstein after. Just my thoughts!

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by TonyB » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:52 pm

Stitching is a good method to fix a block without causing more damage, however the technique does need some thickness of metal and is not cheap. Fixing the cracks in my 09 block cost close to $1000 but then it was probably worth $6-7k. With a 26 block, I think I’d find a good one and renunber it.
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:39 pm

Tonys suggestion is a good one. Find another good block of the proper style and year and transfer the number. Yes your block can be welded. But to do it correctly, with proper pre-heat will probably melt out your main bearings and you will need to re-pour them. No problem if you were going to have to re-pour the mains any way. From the looks of the metal at the crack, stitching is not a good option. Yes a patch could be made and stitched into place, but it would be very, very, very (yes 3 very's) time consuming. Arc welding that crack with nickel rod is not going to happen. Making a patch and brazing it in place is also an option, but the welder needs to know what he is doing .... The location of the crack is far enough away from the main bearings that a pre heat good enough to braze the patch should not melt the mains. If you try to fix it, you need to do a very good clean out of the water jacket. Any rust or trash inside the water jacket will be sucked into the weld and cause alloy problems as well as porosity (pinholes) in the weld. You also need to make sure that the rest of the block is worth the effort ... wishing you good luck with the project........

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:36 pm

I do not agree in trying to fix that block unless it is a rare early block. Chances are there is more damage and rotted areas ready to cut loose then what you are seeing now if that area is that bad. If it was just a crack, it could be fixed with slow cure JB weld or similar product. Even if you did try and fix, it would need a better cleaning then hot tanking, there are places that do acid bath cleaning or oven cleaning. There is 100 years of grease, oil and rust to deal with when trying to get weld to stick to the cast iron.
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by daren007 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:12 pm

???? I thought these engines had "Frost Plugs".

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:25 pm

I understand "soft or freeze plug" to be a misnomer - their intention was a "core" plug to clean out the junk from the casting process.

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:42 pm

daren007 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:12 pm
???? I thought these engines had "Frost Plugs".
Usually the head cracks at the top along the water outlet passage. About 50-50, the block gets thin and rusts rather than a freeze crack, or it cracks easily from being thin.
There's probably as many out there with repairs as not.

I'm with Mark and Joe, fixable, maybe, worth the time and effort...no.
IMHO, just having the matching block under the workbench is goodnuff ;)


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:43 pm

The block looks not only cracked, but also rusted through. The metal around the largest voids looks very thin. I don't think you've got much there to work with.

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by TFan » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:03 am

In doing this type of weld or braze or whatever other method we can come up with I have a question. Should the head be bolted in place and maybe even torqued to say 45# with or without a gasket to keep every thing kind of on an even keel? And I would ask the same about boring an engine, should the mains be torqued in place before boring? Some of the racing fellas around this area do the mains when they are doing a rebore. Jim
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Mindless Automaton » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:46 am

It can be fixed, with much effort.

You could even hammer up a copper water jacket & solder that to the block if you wanted to. But that would require much soldering.

You can probably drill out that rotten area and drill & pin pretend metal stitch it if you wanted to at home. I've done that on cylinder heads that nobody else wanted to repair.


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:20 pm

A typical straight hairline freeze crack is one thing to repair and not real difficult. This crack is another story. The inner walls of the block look to thin and really to far gone to repair.
Yes it could be repaired but what it would consist of to do it doesn’t warrant the time since the inner water jacket condition doesn’t justify it. An open valve or very early T block is one thing to try to save but not a later common block in this condition.


tonny
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by tonny » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:33 pm

You can use Devcon steel putty works prefect!!
went it hard you drill and tap it.


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Philip » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:59 pm

I have had fantastic results with the victor fire power
Metal spray torch on cast iron. Philip

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by TFan » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:11 am

Philip, Tell us more about this spray stuff please. Jim
Back road kinda guy stuck on the freeway of life.


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Vbl » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:25 am

Hello guys.

A lot of interesting answers here I see.

I'll take the best engine block of the other two and renumbers it in the first hand and then I see what will happen with the original engine block, I'll definitely don't going to throw it away. The body work will cost a fortune on my project so maybe I'll get the original engine block repaired in the future, but then again it's hard to find someone to weld and repair it today...

I didn't know about transfering the number to another block. Today that is to falsify an engine?

Don't know about frost plug either but I have read that you had to emty the engine/radiator for water or else it would cause severe damage below freezing because of lacking anti freeze coolant in those days. That's probably the cause to this damage because it can be well below freezing here in Norway and where my great grandfather lived.
Vidar Blikø

My main forum thread: viewtopic.php?t=541

Restoring my great grand fathers 1926 Model T touring
Restoring my fathers 1985 VW Transporter T3/T25
1973 Mini project
1993 BMW E34 520iAT

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:51 am

Ford sold replacement blocks without numbers with the instruction that they should be stamped with the number of the block they were replacing. The assumption was that the block they were replacing was unusable. I see no ethical or moral problem with reusing the number in your situation. But I don't know the law where you live, and I have no idea how some individual bureaucrat might interpret the law. So I would reuse the number on a better block, but I wouldn't volunteer that information when registering the car. A good rule in dealing with bureaucracies is don't lie, but don't give any information they don't ask for. It may confuse them and lead to needless complications.
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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by John kuehn » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:11 pm

The issue with restamping another number on a block is whether the good block that’s being used is whether it’s been stolen. But that’s really a moot question in this situation.

This comes into question when a car is taken to a state DMV to acquire a replacement title.
The number only goes back 25 years here in Texas and it hardly ever if at all happens for antique cars. Do as Steve J says and don’t say anything more than necessary at the DMV.

After nearly 80+years I don’t think there is anything to worry about.
Lots of Model T’s have either replacement engines or another T engine from a later era T.

What’s unethical is when a guy tries to make an open valve block with a non starter engine and tries to pass it off as a original open valve.


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by fliverfan » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:37 pm

John kuehn wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:11 pm

What’s unethical is when a guy tries to make an open valve block with a non starter engine and tries to pass it off as a original open valve.
But passing off some pieced together pile of scrap closed valve block as an original is?

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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by kmatt » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:48 pm

Vidar, As I remember from your prior posts your Model T is a 1926 Touring made in April 1926 by engine number. Did you check your car's frame for a stamped number, generally found stamped on top of the right side frame top rail near the hand brake cross shaft but sometimes found of the left side rail ? The USA made cars started stamping the engine number on the frame in December 1925, I don't know about cars made at Ford's oversea plants. If your car has a matching frame number to your car title using a replacement engine block shouldn't cause a problem. Make sure that you use a 1926-27 style block for rebuilding, the one that takes the two transmission cover bolts on the back, if you have a extra 1926-27 style block.


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Erik Barrett » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:32 am

If that block came here, I would scrap it immediately and select a replacement from my collection of identical blocks that are not in such poor shape. If the number is a problem I would destroy the number on the old one and stamp the number on the donor block after milling the old one off. Blocks in this condition can be saved without a doubt, but it only makes sense with rare and valuable early ones. Later blocks can be had for far less than the cost of a proper repair. I understand there are not as many in your part of the world but they can be shipped. I will give you one but I am a very long ways away from you. Good luck in your project.


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Re: Engine block worth saving/can it be saved?

Post by Philip » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:52 am

the fire power hooks to the oxy acl. torch and uses a powder i use the soft powder you can fill 1\2 inch gaps once you get the
hang of it. philip

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