Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

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Benji
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Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Benji » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:29 am

evening all.

I'm looking to invest in a quality hammer and dolly set (either new, or well maintained used). Whats a good set off hammers and dollys that would be great for T body use?

I'm also looking into investing in an English wheel and a nice bead roller too. Nothing way pricey, but what would be suitable for repairing and making new patch panels and such for T bodies.

Benji

UPDATED: My internet was out for a couple days, so im just now able to reply. Here's some pics of my 1913 roadster sheetmetal to restore.
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Last edited by Benji on Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Luke » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:42 am

The best hammers by far are Snap-On. The second best are Sykes-Pickavant (possibly not obtainable in the US?). I have several for different jobs but the best style for your main hammer, in my view, is the flat pick (NOT pointed) with flat (NOT crowned) head.

As I was doing this work professionally - in another life - I made my own dolly(s). That is to say I made a wooden buck and had them cast, then fettled them from there. For old car stuff you'd want several well rounded specimens with reasonable mass, as well as some flat with a straight edge. I'll photograph some of mine in the weekend and put them up here, which should give you an idea.

In terms of swagers and wheels, the professional ones I used were all english, and very solid. I sold them many years ago, but just recently bought a chinese wheel with a number of anvils to manufacture a body. I've been reasonably happy with that for a 'home' machine. Likewise I have a very solid swager that isn't branded but I suspect is chinese, and an english jenny, all of which are fine for what I do today.

You'll also want to make a shrinking stump to go with the above gear, and perhaps get a planishing hammer along with some post/standard finishing dollys to round out the kit.

Oh, and you can make quite a good shrinking slapper with an old coarse file. Again I'll photograph some of mine, if someone else doesn't do so beforehand...

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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:48 am

In the US, Martin makes very good tools, the key is balance and using every hammer's face as it was designed. Buy a book by Frank Sargent, Metal Bumping, it is priceless. Good used sets of Proto, Snap-On. etc can be found too.

Cheap forming tools can make your work look cheap, but there are kits to build your own. Just sayin.

Hope this Helps,

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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:34 am

image.jpg
You might try pawn shops in your area.


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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:52 am

The best tool is your brain.

The best education for your brain is this: https://www.tptools.com/-The-Key-to-Met ... 3mEALw_wcB
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Bills Auto Works » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:49 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:52 am
The best tool is your brain.

The best education for your brain is this: https://www.tptools.com/-The-Key-to-Met ... 3mEALw_wcB

You beat me to it Scott!

Knowing what each hammer is properly designed for & how the metal is going to react to them is really more important than the brand of tool. I have been doing it for decades & have had lots of hammers. If you are lucky enough to find a set like posted above used, that would be awesome. If not one or two really good ones & a few cheaper ones dedicated for uses not often done would be fine. Dollies...I have half a dozen "bought" ones, but have made many for certain uses over the years!

God Bless
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:26 am

Benji wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:29 am
.. I'm looking to invest in a quality hammer and dolly set (either new, or well maintained used). Whats a good set off hammers and dollys that would be great for T body use? I'm also looking into investing in an English wheel and a nice bead roller too. Nothing way pricey, but what would be suitable for repairing and making new patch panels and such for T bodies.
I'm just getting into metal fabrication and looking for tools too (lots to learn yet). If your limiting your work to repairing and making new patch panels and such for T bodies then metal thickness, panel size/shapes should be considered for all tools The patch panel prizes shown are Howell's on eBay- I doubt if you could make them for what they charge in terms of metal cost & labor. So you might want to limit your work to repairing. Hammer styles are designed for various types of repairs - watch some YouTube videos to understand what you might need, that might help you decide on a set or just a few individual tools AND the quality you need. I purchased and returned a small English wheel because of its workmanship (sold by Grizzley, VEVOR..)- anvils included and what I would initially need.
Body panls.jpg
I did buy an Bead roller that is great. It came with a few dies and planning to buy some additional. The throat size is all I need and the spoke crank allows me to see what I'm doing as I manually advance the material through it. Again watch some videos to aquatint yourself with the tools and what you plan on doing and how much of it.
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I just purchase a shrinker/stretcher set from HF (10% off) and have yet to use. I don't see much difference in what others sell except for price. May need to make a foot pedal.
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:48 am

No English Wheel
No Bead Roller

All would be nice, but a hammer and dolly did this after being disgusted with the fit and shipping costs of patch panels...If I was going to have to spend a day making one fit, I figured I'd spend a day and a half and make them myself and save the money
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:02 pm

You just have to be smarter than a piece of flat metal

A shrinker would have been nice, but this took 3 hours and a bandsaw and cost me nothing but time...I doubt that I could have made it in 2 hours with all of the "correct" tools, anyway

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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:23 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:48 am
No English Wheel
No Bead Roller
All would be nice, but a hammer and dolly did this after being disgusted with the fit and shipping costs of patch panels...If I was going to have to spend a day making one fit, I figured I'd spend a day and a half and make them myself and save the money
Actually I agree with you, because it cost me a few dollars to learn that. I soon realized that an English wheel wasn't what I needed for what I was to do. Each "job" needs to consider the cost & time (DIY vs purchase) and the way to approach the work. Your method is exactly an example of it - you created a repetitive process even if you only planned to make one. Working with the correct material & thickness for the part is important as well http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1425226257
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:04 pm

I never answered your question!

https://www.eastwood.com/autobody/hamme ... s.html?p=2
https://www.eastwood.com/fairmount-dinging-spoon.html

Learn to use these and you'll find that all of the cool and expensive shop tools can stay on the showroom floor.

I don't use a brake, I bend seams with a couple stout pieces of steel, but this would be great for the money:
https://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-b ... 67240.html

Myself, I HATE cheap tools and am not wealthy enough to buy them, but I use my machine shop tools a LOT and buy the best I can afford...with body work, I do it once every 4-5 years and the cheap stuff usually works just as well as the expensive stuff for that amount of use. If you buy an expensive hickory-handled Martin set of hammers and dollies, report back to tell us if it made you into a craftsman sooner than the cheap hammers.
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Shane Lach » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:43 pm

If you get really into shaping, i definitely recommend you buy nice or buy twice. If you're just going to make a panel or two, you can get by with lower quality stuff. Snap on and Martin make really nice hammer and dolly sets. I just purchased a snap-on set myself and can't wait to get it in my hands. I've been using harbor freight hammer and dollies and have been wanting a nice set with wood handles. Buy a couple mallets and a beater bag, and make yourself a shrinking stump. Check out snap fab on Instagram if you have one. He makes great mallets and beater bags. He has a website also. Once you have that stuff just go screw up some metal. An English wheel is really nice for planishing the lumps after the beater bag. I made these panels with a beater bag and English wheel, as well as my Woodward fab bead roller with a set of tipping dies. Also used a harbor freight shrinker. Absolutely by one with foot pedals. I just got a stand with pedals and it's life-changing. I purchased it through code auto.
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Shane Lach » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:34 pm

https://youtu.be/Aux1Zg8ZUGU

This covers the cheap hammers well. My hf hammers mark up the metal so bad it's embarrassing. If you care about finish quality, this is unacceptable. I'd have to spend hours upon hours to make them all acceptable, and at that point time is money. I found a like new 7 piece snap on set for $325 and I find that acceptable.

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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:45 am

Lists purpose of various hammer styles ...https://www.tinmantech.com/products/han ... y-hammers/
Which styles make sense for Model T work.? Sometimes a "kit" contains stuff you'll never use.
Martin Tools makes very good American auto-body hand tools. These are based on the old patterns from Fairmont, Paramount, Proto, Blackhawk, and others. We have found this company to be responsive to the market, and they are genuine made-in-America.
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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Luke » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:31 am

As promised I've photographed a few of my hammers and dollies. Hopefully the different views will give an adequate idea of the shapes.

About half of these dollies are ones I made, the others are Snap-on or SP.

Such tools are very personal to each owner, and different people will find different tools more preferable to them (depending also on the type of work you do). What you see here is a subset of the ones I've found useful for old car work, there are many other levers, spoons, slappers, dollies and hammers I've got, but I reckon this lot is probably the most useful.

panel1.jpg
panel2.jpg
panel3.jpg

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Re: What is the best Hammer / Dolly sets to get, as well as everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by varmint » Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:16 pm

I have some cheap hammers and dollies but had to sand the surface and feel no need to get a professional set.

Purchased the sheet metal patch panels but they were not big enough to cover the rust damage. So, I bought an English wheel and a set of lower anvils to make my own. I have not used it as much as I thought I would but some parts cannot be bought.

The bead roller is a fun tool in that the wife enjoys supplying the forward and reverse power while I have two hands on the metal. I encourage a deep throat.

An arbor press and brake press work together. The arbor press paid for itself when I rebuilt a transmission. The three brake presses I made with delight.

The cheap shrinkers and stretchers are junk in that they cannot handle heavy gauge material. Plus I had to repair one.
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Benji » Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:48 am

Hey all! Can't thank you enough for the replies. Lots of outstanding work, and you gave me a good idea of what I need. Swap meet season is coming up, so this info gives me a good idea on what to look out for. Especially good brands. I dont mind spending a bit extra for good tools and tooling. I'll definitely take a look into all the advice given here.

I've read through this book so far: Professional Sheet Metal Fabrication - Ed Barr
And also have Metal Bumping next to read. I have a friend that's been doing body work for decades, so can get some extra instruction there, but I moved a while back, so he's not as close to me as before, unfortunately.

I've got a heavy arbor press and 20 ton press now. I do want to get an English wheel for this work, and for future. A deep throat bead roller is planned. Id like to get a good break, but will look for a decent used one as the cheaper harbor freight ones aren't the best the last I looked into it.

Al, my cars are early, so patch panel availability is minimal. No patch panels for the bottom of 13 doors, etc. So its best I learn all of this. My 13 roadster is more bent metal, no rust outs.

The 13 touring I have has alot of rotten metal on the lower 6 inches or more in the rear tub, and tapers out about the middle of the car. It was screwed to a piece of plywood, and left out in the weather a long time before I got it. Had it not been, most of the wood would of been intact, as well as some upholstery. Very sad, but I'll try and save it. It also came with the fenders, hood, firewall dash shield, one engine pan, all the brackets and toe heel panels, the little lips for the seats, splash aprons too I think.

I've got some old parts and fenders saved up to practice on when I get my tools. And have a new Lincoln mig welder I started learning on last year.


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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:21 pm

Like a couple others, I make my patch panels myself. Available patch panels I have seen others buy never looked that good to me, and the fit wasn't good. Since I work on a very tight budget, I figure I can spend less, and the time I usually spend making them isn't much more than I would waste on phone calls and fiddling with and getting a bought part anyway. I made the piece for my car like Scott Conger shows above. He did a nicer job than I did on mine, but mine fits, works and looks good!
I don't have enough proper tools for body work. A couple that belonged to my dad many years ago, and a few cheap ones I bought almost forty years ago myself. I make do with other tools I have, and also carve bucks out of wood like Scott C shows with his patch panel. A little thought, some creativity, and a few good tools can accomplish amazing things!

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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Tbird » Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:38 pm

This guy on YouTube is making his own T body. I think he’s up to part 5 now. I’ve been watching them and been quite fascinated with it. I’m sure he’d give you some pointers if you reached out to him.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=00z6xB-hH-A


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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Luke » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:24 am

Benji,

You've got a fair job ahead of you, judging by the photographs. It's not going to be easy, and there'll be some difficult times I expect, but if you persevere I'm sure you'll get great satisfaction out of what you produce.

Mike and others have given good advice re videos etc that are online. These are great for getting an idea about what you should do, however you'll need to put that learning into some sheet steel and see what you can make with it. Lots of practice is a Good Thing :-)

A couple more things that may be of use and interest. Firstly, Zintex and the like can be a bit hard to work so you'll want to use soft panel steel, about 1mm thick.

Secondly, there is no one right way to make panels but you may want to 'invest' in a shrinking stump to make some of your quarter panels and the like. Here's one I made recently:

stump.JPG

I used this to make the complete quarter panels for the car you see in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19034 - the methodology there was to first cut out the rough shape of the panel, then shrink the edges with the stump and wooden round-headed sheetmetal hammer, followed by working with an English wheel, then finishing off with flat panel hammer and dolly.

With the door skins, which generally require much less curvature, I'd just use the English wheel if I was making the whole skin (and possibly bead roller if you wanted some edging), but if I was patching it then there's a lot you can do with simple hammer and dolly work as Scott has said.

As a matter of interest the original metal panels for the car in the above thread were in some cases not too dissimilar to yours in terms of condition, but in others areas they were completely non-existent. The restoration decisions were:
  • Guards had repair panels that were made with folder or wheel, and/or flat and crowned hammer+dolly. These panels were then let into the guard via mig or gas welding.
  • Quarter panels were made new using the method I describe above. I did try repairing one of the original panels but it was badly holed in a number of places and a new panel gave a better outcome for a lot less time and welding material.
  • Rear panels including bootlid and guttering were all manufactured using a roller or folder, with a little hammer/dolly work. You don't actually need a roller for this but because I had one it was used. I also used a post that was holding up Adrian's shed in order to adjust the curvature in one panel and it worked fine!
  • The front cowl was made simple by cutting to shape then bending up each side by hand on a piece of carpet layed on the ground. When it was fitted into place I needed to do some shrinking and stretching with straight-pick and flat hammer + dolly.
  • Sill panels were made with a swager because the folded edge was necessarily not straight. This was followed with a light wheeling and fettling with flat and curved hammer + dolly to get the final shape and fit right.
I note these points because it may give you an idea what to do with yours, but I stress again that there are many ways to go about such things that would produce similar results.

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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:59 am

Question: What is the best way to clean the rusted panels before working on them. Soda Blaster, chemical treatment (cleaning vinegar, molasses tank, Rust Inhibitor, or ..) or other method. I would think that any form of sand blasting might warp the metal, but then again its already warped. ... I experimented using a very acidic Household Cleaning vinegar (not labeled white vinegar) to de-rust some parts was did the job just as well as named brands Rust stuff at a 10th the price. Only difference is that parts did start to oxidize a few days later if left untreated
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Shane Lach » Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:22 pm

Rust 911 is great for rust removal. Blasting isn't the best as it will warp and thin. Make a bath and soak overnight

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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:38 pm

I am trying to decide looking the the photos if it is rust/exposure or has been in a fire? Kinda look like the panels have been thru a fire. If that is the case, could affect the work-ability of the metal.
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Herb Iffrig » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:06 pm

My first thought was that it had been in a fire too.


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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:16 pm

I think I have seen that before. Looks like Warren’s roadster from Knoxville. Hope you can save it. Dan

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Rich Eagle
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:42 pm

It does my heart good to see you tackling that body. Not everyone would have the ambition. It might pay to buy the best but I got by fine with a cheap body tool set from Harbor freight and don't know the difference.
Best of luck on the project.
Rich
When did I do that?

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TRDxB2
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:08 pm

Tbird wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:38 pm
This guy on YouTube is making his own T body. I think he’s up to part 5 now. I’ve been watching them and been quite fascinated with it. I’m sure he’d give you some pointers if you reached out to him.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=00z6xB-hH-A
If you watch the video series you'll hardly see the guy using a hammer or dollies making similar panels. Not sure what how good the metal is on what you have. Again, watch the video and see how he's shrinking some, heat +, dents. If you can't determine the hammers he is using then you'd be wasting your money buying an expensive set. You need to focus on what you need for your "project".
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Dallas Landers » Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:17 am

Rich, you should post a before and after photo of your touring body for inspiration.


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Benji
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Benji » Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:17 am

Mike: thanks for the link! I think I may have come across him before, but am saving al, his videos and will watch them this weekend. What briefly I saw looks neat!

Luke: thanks again for your detailed descriptions. Watched a couple stumping videos the other day. I see if my neighbor down the street has a suitable species. He burns wood all the time, and has several logs to be split. Reminds me I need one for my anvil anyway! I will invest in an English wheel. For what I want to do, I think it will be a good tool to have for door skins, etc.

Frank: I've been getting evaporust in 5 gallon buckets from home depot. Its the cheapest around here ive found. Been using it to clean up an old atlas lathe that had some light surface rust on some parts (luckily not the ways). Its work fantasticly! Basically thinking of a clean/decrease solution in home made troughs lined with plastic first. Then derusting them. Apparently if you dint rinse the evaporust off. It leaves a protective film. Im not sure if I want to do that or??? Im shying away from sandblasting the sheetmetal.

I've been seeing what others have been using tool wise. I dont think I'll buy a set so to speak. Im going to look for some used tools that I need first since swap meet season is upon us. And will go from there. But yes, your right, I only need the tools for specific sheetmetal work on early Ts.

Dan, Mark, Herb: yes it was in a fire. Dan is correct, its Warren's old 13 roadster parts I dug out of the carnage of his garage.

Rich: Thanks! There aren't many original 13 ruanbaouts left, so I plan on doing the best I can on this one after I get alot of practice and learning in on a few other projects I'll teach myself on first.


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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:26 am

For a little comparison, I think I will post a few before and in process photos of my 1915 runabout. Mine wasn't in a fire, but I have restored panels and fenders from fire damage before. And my body had suffered from an attempt a few decades back by someone wanting to build a bucket T hot rod. Along with some rust-out (not bad, but enough) took a lot of work to fix it up to decent. I don't have many pictures of my fenders or side aprons, but most of them were in much worse condition than the body was.
IMG_2994.JPG
IMG_2992.JPG
001.JPG
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Most of my project are parts rejected from other people's restorations. A lot of it is done now, and I just need a few things to get it put together.
It can be done! And I think you can do it with yours!

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varmint
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by varmint » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:37 am

Two more things I forgot to list as other tools:

The fire tool, it damaged your car but it can be used to anneal sharp bends before straightening, and used to stretch panels.

Though it does not apply to these panels since you have access to both sides, a stud gun/welder is better than drilling a hole and inserting a sheet metal screw. With a stud gun I use a lever instead of a slide hammer for better control of the pulling force.
Vern (Vieux Carre)

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Bob McDaniel
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Re: Update: Pics of my 13 Roadster Sheetmetal. Hammer/Dolly Set to get; everyone else's favorite body working tools?

Post by Bob McDaniel » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:11 pm

Benji,

I have been watching a lot of videos on you tube and this guy is one of the best at teaching how to do just what you need to know. He even shows how he does it on a Harbor Freight English wheel as well the real good wheels in his shop. Check him out and watch his videos. I find it better to set the speed to around 1.25 since he is kind of long winded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwGroFmWUUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDywldxQAo0
Give an old car guy a barn and he won't throw anything away.

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