MTFCA Forum

Does anyone have any experience with fitting these to the rear side shafts. I would like to know of the side / half shafts need any machining to make this bearing fit.

OK, you stumped me, what is a T2508X bearing and where is it used?

I am pretty sure "half shaft" is the commonly used British name for "Axel shaft."
Terry

Is this of any help?

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2508DUAL.aspx

2508X is Snyders part number for the same Langs offering, it's made in Texas, a very short modern outer bearing with Timken taper fitted to shell race that has to be pinned to the axle housing, by using that existing hole in the outer housing that holds the Hyatt sleeve dimple, and using a 1/4” dia. set screw. Supposed to replace the long flexible ribbon roller Hyatt bearing used by Ford.

Instructions says it will slip on, but maybe if axle is old worn, if new (factory spec is 1.062-1.065”), likely you have to remove a bit to slip it in place.

In viewing the above image, does anyone think the “new, better bearing” is a bit shadetree? The instruction even says it isn’t an ideal fit...

Picture an original axle shaft being a light slip fit to loose fit in the inner bearing race of that modern bearing. The axle shaft is now “rolling” on two thin hardened races that are likely much harder than the Rockwell C 50 hardness of a Ford/proper axle shaft. And unless this entire assembly is set up to be greased by the rear grease cups, then the interface between axle shaft & race now is absolutely dry. I would anticipate a much more rapid work hardening and potential failure of the axle shaft versus the “original” setup.

i have only seen 1 sheered axle. It was on Lee Chases sedan in Kanab Utah. he had a ball bearing substitute axle bearing. The axle sheared right at the edge of the bearing.
I believe the hyatt "spring" spreads the load over its total length. these "substitutes" are not for driving T's.
why think somebody"s brilliant idea is better than Henerys? 15,000,000+ T's proved his design.

My 1924 sheared an axle shaft a few years back. I use OEM Ford Hyatt bearings. From the rusted surface, it looks like the crack had been spreading for a long time. The location of the crack lined up with the spring "fingers" that supported the Ford style leather inner oil seal.

So Mark, did you ever figure out why? bent axle housing(s)? Brand x axle? Washboard roads? Stunt driving?

Too many burnouts!

Seriously, my theory is that the hard steel spring "fingers" backing up the leather seal were rubbing on the axle shaft, and over the years a crack started in the scratches and slowly propagated in fatigue until it finally broke.

It’s very very common to see a broken axle shaft that is broken where the ‘26-‘27 Ford style seal has scratched a little groove in the axle shaft. So common that you shouldn’t re-use an axle shaft if it has even a hint of a groove there. It’s also something that was known about back in the day. I seem to recall mention of it in an old reference book or a trade magazine like Ford Owner & Dealer or something similar.

that all makes sense. thanks for that info.

Some of Henry's ideas for the T were open to improvement. Rear axle bearings were one. Ford built 5 million A models with rear axle bearings of the floating design so the weight of the car was no longer carried on the axle. Just 'cos Henry did it one way, doesn't mean it was the best way.

Allan from down under.

Model A axle shafts got most of their torque load in only one direction because of wheel brakes.

Model T axle shafts get torque loads in both directions due to the brake on the drive line.

They are completely different animals in that respect.

While the torque loading may be different between Model T and A, Mark's axle clearly failed in bending mode due to metal fatigue. fwiw, jb

Fellows, the original poster was concerned with the bearings. It was the floating bearing set-up which was the big improvement in the A model. The weight of the car was then carried on the bearing and the axle housing, relieving the axle of considerable load and propensity for wear.
The T model set-up served its purpose at the time, millions of times over, but it was not flawless.

Allan from down under.

Hello, I thought I would resurrect this thread maybe the original poster has been using these for a few years and can offer some feedback.
I am considering making a set of these to use on a 1911 Hupmobile rear end that I have modified to run T internals and would like to know if anyone is running them in a car that gets driven/toured and have there been any safety issues or failures?

I have limited options for the outer bearings; this is the easy way, but it needs to be reliable and at least as safe as it ever was. Originally, the car had 1-1/8" dia axles; they were shot, as were the Hyatt-style outer bearings and sleeves. So making some 1-1/8" axles would do nothing for me, so I figure I may as well use the T axles.

Now the issue is the housing tube is a different size and depth. Hence, it's not as easy as finding a good used set of bearings for a T. I would need to adapt the bore diameter and cut down the sleeves and bearing length. I suppose that's doable, but I'd first need to find suitable used bearings, then get everything cut down. Next I thought of making a safety hub but by the time I cut off the end of tube I'll have even less depth to support the hub probably enough, but then I have the issue of space inside the drum for the brake hardware the bearing and flange of a safety hub will definitely get into the return springs. I might be able to work that out, but right now, that's kind of a last resort in my mind.

So, if this cartarge-style bearing is working out ok and not causing axles to break off or fail after a couple thousand miles, I'd like to just make up a couple cartariges and be done.
If not, I guess I'll either try to use Hyatts or see how I can get brake springs around a safety hub. Or if there are any other better-suited aftermarket options, I know the solid rollers don't get favorable reviews, and I'd still need to cut them down.
Thank you for any suggestions.

I have seen an axle sheared right @ the ball bearing edge on a model T. I would not consider this conversion for a vehicle I planned to actually drive/tour with. A museum piece OK.
I believe the genius of the wound hyatts that spread the load over the full length of the bearing roller plus the spring nature of the wind.

A consideration: Use 2 drive shaft Hyatt bearings. They are shorter & rollers are .562 as opposed to .500 on the axle bearing. Sounds like an easier fit/modification for your application.
Down side: they are much harder to find in usable condition. I would never consider the solid replacements in a driver.

I had thought of the driveshaft bearings but haven't seen much come up that was useable. I suppose cutting down a couple standard ones wouldn't be that hard to do. I still need to find some good ones; they seem to be getting harder to come by as well. I wish there was a decent and safe bearing conversion for our T's or reproduced Hyatts to original specs. I have a few that were advertised as good that are NOT usable, so I'm always hesitant to buy them online for fear of getting bad ones. I have about 8 of them now that are not servicable. And I have a T to think about keeping some spares for as well. I guess at least the T can get hubs if needed.

I understand the sheared axle at the edge of the ball bearing I wonder if it was just a single bearing.
This is a bit different in that it is a cartridge with two tapered bearings in it so it should spread the load out compared to a single ball bearing. Still not a Hyatt, but if the tapered bearings are set up with a small amount of end play, it could perhaps behave more like the original with a hint of give and spread the load over the distance that the tapered bearings are set apart in the cartridge. It all sounds great, but I'd rather not be the test pilot. I assume they sell the things to someone, but maybe only ice cream getters and museum cars.

I'm still interested if anyone has run these in a driver car and the results. If no or bad feedback on these, I will probably fit Hyatts; it's the next simplest thing to do. Really, it's no more work than making up a cartridge, possibly less. Just a matter of finding useable hyatts. I was hoping to get away from being stuck with a bearing that the supply is drying up, but for now, it may be the best or only safe option.

Adam wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:55 am

In viewing the above image, does anyone think the “new, better bearing” is a bit shadetree? The instruction even says it isn’t an ideal fit...

Picture an original axle shaft being a light slip fit to loose fit in the inner bearing race of that modern bearing. The axle shaft is now “rolling” on two thin hardened races that are likely much harder than the Rockwell C 50 hardness of a Ford/proper axle shaft. And unless this entire assembly is set up to be greased by the rear grease cups, then the interface between axle shaft & race now is absolutely dry. I would anticipate a much more rapid work hardening and potential failure of the axle shaft versus the “original” setup.

Adam, it's funny you bring this up. I thought about going this route on my rear axle rebuild, but decided against it after I read you need to cut off the ends of the axle housing tubes to ensure the bearings go in far enough. The downside is once done you can never go back to the hyatt roller bearing as the sleeve/bearing would stick out of the tube.
I agree that less of the axle shaft is carrying the load. More psi on a lessor area. Just my opinion.

So I think the cartridge-style Timkin setup might be ok model t ranch claims to have sold over 1500 with no bad feedback. A feller could machine the lip off and drive it further into the tube to avoid cutting the tube off.

With that said, I have decided to run Hyatt's maybe by the time I wear them out there will be more feedback on the Timken setup.

I found a set of decent Hupmobile Hyatts, so they are the right length. What's interesting is that even though the Hupmobile axle was 1/16" bigger, the Hupmobile Hyatts have a slightly smaller cage and distance between dimples than the Ford, so running them on a smaller axle should be fine. I'll make a shim for my axle tube size it down to Ford size and cut down some sleeves.
Who currently sells good sleeves?

Jeff,
What do you mean by good sleeves? That might be like asking which oil to use.

Art Mirtes

HI Art, I guess something comparable to the OE in hardness and size. I have read about poor quality bearing sleeves in the past, hardness and or too-thin sleeves being sold and not lasting. This is why I hoped to get good feedback on the Timken setup.
Dealing with only used Hyatts and potentially junk new sleeves makes alternatives seem nice, but if the alternatives lead to axle failure, then not so much.
Maybe the question should be, should I avoid any particular bearing sleeves?
Jeff