MTFCA Forum

The New York Times ran an article today about the dangers of modern cars and trucks, that have 100 million lines of code, compared with airliners that have only 15 million lines. They might become the target of hackers looking for ransom money or just wanting to commit mayhem. The CEO of a computer security company was quoted as saying: "It's just a matter of time before a major hack happens. The most secure vehicle is a Model T Ford, because it's not connected to anything."

With my kind of luck, the first computer hacked modern car would go out of control and hit me in my innocent Model T.

You may be safe from computer hackers but the word "crashworthiness" does not apply to a Model T

...and when China visits an EMP on us, all cars built after 1973 are dead. Our Model T s will increase in value exponentially.

My first knee jerk reaction to this question was to LOL, literally! After careful consideration... it hasn’t changed.

However, in a modern car, a "fatal error" isn't as fatal as plate glass...

I'll say it's a toss up. And if we DO get hit with an EMP style nuclear attack (because a deliberate EMP attack will be generated by a thermonuke or better over our heads) having a running car will be the least of our worries...

Susanne, you took the words right out of my keyboard!
The way things have been going, and seem to be headed, right now I'll hold back my rant on the EMP threat also.
Our lives are in God's hands, plain and simple. What will be will be, and the Model T isn't gonna help us any anyway.

It’s getting close for people not to be connected to anything would be the best thing to do. Too much available information isn’t good in the long run.

Aircraft software is written under strict rules and procedures.
Testing is extensive and in accordance with multiple standards.

Automotive software - not so much.

The challenge with Model T's and EMPs is - that you may have a running car, but only as long as there are gas in the tank. All powerstations are wiped out, so the power driven gaspumps at the gasstations won't work, so you'll need some way to manually get the gas up from the storagetanks in the ground. And cash to pay with (the latter may not be an issue in the US but will over here where almost all paying is done electronically).

While a Model T may survive and EMP attack it is doubtful if the USA grid will. No electricity, no gas, lights, heat, robo calls
https://uwkcase.com/blogs/blog/emp-proof-car

Bobs comment about airplanes made me think a bit about the effect of EMP on them. Lower performance piston aircraft with the exception of some of the high-tech newer ones get their ignition from a pair of magnetos and most of the critical fight instruments are powered by an engine driven vacuum pump or simple air pressure. While EMP might fry the radios and some of the other electronics a plane like mine would keep chugging along. It has more in common with a Model T than the cars built in the last 50 years. Fun fact, the 75 year old plane I fly had no starter for the firs 23 years I owned it. It had to be hand propped - I know cranking a T can be dangerous if done incorrectly....the same is true of swinging that big blade around. Heaven help you if you left the throttle open too far and forgot to set the brakes and chock the wheels Me, I prefer a starter for both car and plane...

THIS is getting fun!!! Thanks!

Yep, that's what I was talking about... My car(s) will run as long as there's gas in the tank and it's not turned into syrupy varnish... Then... what? I've heard people talk about running them on alcohol, but is that really feasable, and even then, you'll have corrosion damage from the water in the alcohol... and while a T will run on a number of combustable / flammable liquids, it wasn't "designed" to run on alcohol (contrary to popular folklore)... Most other combustables will be even more unobtanuium than Gasoline.

And what will you use for oil? I guess in the short term you can filter it through a coffee filter or layers of cloth, but a T is a leaky beast... eventually you'll be out, either from leakage or from sludge-age...

Soooo.... We could go back to the "electric conversion" option, and if you have a solar array, then you're probably close to OK... until the batteries die (they are currently at a lifespan of what, 2 years or so?)... unless you have an iron alkaline "Edison" battery system... which are bulky and heavy...

Yep, I've thought about this. A lot. Part of my former job (and current part time fun for side money, at least until Covid hit) is giving first responders seminars on surviving being thrown into grid-down locations and thriving (from earthquakes to floods to Sarajevo scenarios), so I've given this considerable study (far more than reading prepper fiction!) using real world dynamics. Part of why I love T's is because they ARE resiliant (far more than most transportation, save ol' Dobbin)... but you have to think 10 moves out to make sure that it will keep going under abhorrent scenarios. And likely, you'll have other issues crop up before transportation becomes an issue.

My by-line sez it all . . .

And Model T drivers didn't need a GPS to get around town either

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:00 pm

You may be safe from computer hackers but the word "crashworthiness" does not apply to a Model T Screenshot_2021-03-19 (85) Pinterest.png

100% correct.

If I hit a telephone pole going 30 mph in my 1919 Model T I’ll die.
If I hit a telephone pole going 30 mph in my modern vehicle my checkbook will die.
Just saying!

NHUSA wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:54 pm

If I hit a telephone pole . . .

Telephone pole ?!? What's that ?!?

If I thought I was going to hit a phone pole (or up here, where sugar or lodgepole pines, ponderosa pines, dougie firs et al grow wild) I would bail out of my car WAY before that tree could do us damage... Seriously, thats part of paying attention to your surroundings.... IF you can't avoid your soft head hitting a hard as heck tree, then there's not much any of us can do to save you...

Human nature being what it is, the so-called "safer" things are made,
the farther people will push them, thusly reaching a similar level of unsafe
as was had before things were made safer. As an example, a switchback
road down the side of a mountain is perfectly safe at 25mph, but people
will try to drive it at 45, and go over the edge. So, what do we do ? We
reroute the road to remove the curves, and now people will try to drive it
at 80. So, the idea of "safe" is more about human nature than it is about
situational conditions.

When I was walking around the countryside in Afghanistan, friends would
often ask "Aren't you scared ?" or close conversations with "Be safe !". I was
surrounded by the best trained and armed people on Earth, and we were
all "on point" at all times. Never have I felt more safe. Yet I come home
and people are mained and killed at a 100x daily rate than what we saw in
theatre, from car wrecks and violent crimes. How do we define "safe", and
where is all the concern for the very present threats all around us here at
home ?

I volunteered to go play in the dust of central Asia and I also make a very
conscious choice to drive a tin can on wheels, taking any and all precautions
I can to make it home in the same condition as I left, very much like I trained
to be a viable team member in a combat zone. And just like we knew the
present dangers all around us there, I know the dangers here and drive my
T accordingly.

As I often tell people who like to talk "safety", we are all just one nutcake
with a firearm or bomb away from a mass casualty situation. In other words,
we are NEVER truly safe, so give that stupid idea up right now. The best we
can hope for is to be as prepared as possible for any given situation. Car wrecks,
active shooters, how many are truly prepared to deal with it when it drops on
us in the blink of an eye ?

I do not want a (denatured, low sodium ) pickle // I just want to ride my (gasoline-powered) motorsickle. The most unsafe vehicle I currently own is probably my mint, sparkling clean, low-mileage 2005 Toyota Tundra, which, I am repeatedly assured, contains a chemical bomb in the dashboard that is likely to explode without any warning or provocation, sending deadly metallic shrapnel throughout the cabin area. I am told that I must submit it to a dealer for installation of a new, supposedly safer chemical bomb. I also own an old Chevrolet Silverado beater, which I am just now being told ALSO contains a deadly chemical bomb in the dashboard, which must, with all urgency, be replaced with a new, supposedly safer chemical bomb. I'd rather they'd replace the broken right rear spring and the totally stripped out front half shafts, the worn out shocks, the rat-chewed wiring under the hood, and maybe replace the driver's seat, which looks like a bomb crater.

Actually, most modern autos' electronics are very well shielded from outside electronic noise because they have to be to operate in the environment surrounding them! Got a car that has back up alarm, blind spot monitoring, adaptive cruise? That radar based with electronic emissions that could interfere with its self. If you are worried, get wind up clocks and watches, keep your cash in hand because the banks won't work without electronics, get your kerosine lamps cleaned and the wicks trimmed, get your meat dried and preserved, a milk cow for dairy. And the list goes on!

The day after the EMP: " Dang, Maw, the T starts OK, but the reddio is dead an' your ol' milk cow is a-glowin' in the dark.... an' ever time these dad-burn chickens peck the dirt, sparks fly!

I believe there was a electromagnetic burst secondary to a solar flare in 1859 that fried telegraph wires and started fires in telegraph offices due to the high energy sent through the infused wires. No man made nuclear devices needed. BTW, I’ve pulled fuel from junked auto gas tanks with nothing fancier than a drill and run it in the T.

It was known as the Carrington event, it was caused by a massive solar flare that was aimed at the earth when it cut loose... unleased all kinds of havoc. We came a gnats eyebrow to one a couple years ago, fortunately it was off by a few degrees... otherwise we'd all be responding to the board by candlelight.

Seat belts, reinforced passenger compartments, crumple zones, air bags, not to mention better vehicle stability, road contact, and braking power....I’ll take my chances with the code.

Most of the software on a modern car goes into the bells and whistles of the entertainment system and the like, which is usually well isolated from the ECU that controls the physical operation of the car.

The highly regulated nature of the aviation industry is part of the reason why aircraft systems are so concise. The testing can be exhausting, and it can take years to bring new solutions to market. That said, you’re likely to see a fully automated airspace before you see fully automated roadways, and that’ll include plenty of software I assure you.

I enjoy my T for what it is, but am thankful to be on the better end of decades of highway safety research and improvement when it comes to hopping into my daily driver.