Headlight Gas Line Routing

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Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:31 am

I've not been able to see a untouched car to verify my question, so maybe someone can tell me how FORD did this? I have my gas line ready to mount today, and want to know which side of the steering column wood block it goes on. I should know this, but there are few folks out there running gas lights.


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by BHarper » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:09 am

Hi Larry,

First, I will state that I do not know. The picture below does not show that detail.

892197.jpg
892197.jpg (39.82 KiB) Viewed 5320 times

One can see that the line does sit inside the frame as it runs forward from its clamp, but the area of the wood block is not in the photograph.

This pictures suggests that the gas line is routed between (or UNDER ???) the wood block and the frame.

13 gaslight -2.jpg

Not knowing the sequence of assembly at the plant, we can only guess (using Good Manufacturing Process) WHEN something as long and fragile as the gas headlamp line was installed on the chassis, after the engine but before the steering column? Who knows. Early cars, without the holes in the radiator for the gas hose, apparently had the gas line run below the frame, as shown in these pictures.

368906.jpg
368907.jpg


What year are you working on, Larry? Your '13? Good luck with your project, Bill

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Bob McDaniel » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:40 pm

Hi Larry,

Here are some pictures of my unrestored 13 Touring showing the gas line for the headlights running under the wood block at the rear engine mount.
SANY1404.JPG
Then it runs under the wood block for the steering mount.
SANY1524.JPG
SANY1403.JPG
SANY1402.JPG
Hope this helps.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by KWTownsend » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:01 pm

Bob-
That would have been my guess, but Larry was looking for Ford facts, not a guesses.

Larry-
Does the print show the gas line as straight up by the radiator, or a curve, as Bob's shows?
So are there then three short lengths of rubber hose, one going to the bottom of the cross over tube T, than two other that go to each headlamp?
I look forward to seeing pictures.

: ^ )

Keith


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:52 pm

Thanks for the photos! I think someone has altered the gas line in these photos. I just need to know if the gas line runs along the inside of the frame right up against the rail, or does it start tapering inside, but still next to the two steering column bolts? This is about as trivia as it gets, but that is what I like! That line can actually be on either side of the two bracket bolts, but still be inside the frame.


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Erik Barrett » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:01 am

If you are using an acetylene gas generator, be advised that they put out a lot of water with the gas. If you have dips and low spots in the lines, water will gather there and you will soon be in the dark.


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:05 am

The last two photos Bob posted are what I was after. It clearly shows the tubing going on the right side of the two steering column bolts, but still under the wood block. Actually, it makes more sense to do it this way, because the tubing will line up better with the Tee on the radiator.


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:36 pm

A word of caution to someone contemplating installation of NEW lines for their functional Acetylene headlights: do NOT use copper or brass tubing containing a high copper content. Copper Acetylide can be produced which is a shock-sensitive (explosive) compound. Not that I would imagine anyone would do it, but the same goes for acetylene's reaction to silver or mercury.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:32 pm

Hi Scott,

Is this really an issue? The vendors all sell the headlamp gas-line kits with copper tubing. What kind of tubing was used originally?

Long ago, when I was messing about with chemistry, I made a batch of silver acetylide. The silver was put into solution in hydrochloric acid and acetylene was bubbled through the silver solution. The silver acetyide precipitated out as a "salt" and collected at the bottom of the beaker of solution. The resulting silver acetylide was quite explosive, much more so than black powder. The SA crystals go bang when ignited or under impact without any containment like firecrackers.

That said, I don't see how exposing silver (like the silver dime that was sacrificed to the aforementioned experiment) to gaseous acetylene would create acetylide, but I could be wrong. I do agree that one should not run acetylene though a copper solution, but using copper piping shouldn't end in the same results.

Keep crankin'
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:24 pm

Eric, I can't speak for all parts suppliers, but the line I bought from Lang's is brass. The metallurgy of the seamless tube is probably un-knowable, hopefully the copper content is at a suitable proportion for the purpose.

That copper acetylide can and does precipitate in lines and vessels carrying acetylene generated at will by water and carbide is a fact which was cautioned against early on in the mining industry and later through the automobile gaslight era. I don't think it's a huge issue for restorers if lamps are plumbed in as per original, but I'd stay away from using copper lines.

To second guess the question, "then why are all my oxy-acetylene welding tips copper ?" Apparently the answer is that unlike your automobile headlamps, the gas is mixed with oxygen. Personally, I'd like to know more about this.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:46 pm

here's the link to the kit sold by Langs:
https://www.modeltford.com/item/BL-T.aspx
Their description : This complete hook includes the copper tubing, copper T fitting, red rubber tubing, brass hose clamps, and instructions.

Here's the link to the kit at Snyder's:
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/hook-up-kit
Their description: For the gas headlamps this kit includes 8' of copper tubing copper 'T' fitting 3' of red rubber tubing, and six brass clamps. U.S.A.

So that's what is out there today. Does anyone know what the hard tubing was made of originally?

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:52 pm

Bought mine about 18 months ago. It's brass. I wonder why they would switch to copper ?
Some time back "original" Smith told us the original lines were tin plated brass.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:41 pm

I'm sure the copper is of course OK for "show", assuming you're not concerned with originality, but simply ease of fabrication. However, using it with a functioning system is a definite NO-NO. I think the amount and frequency of use probably places this in the "low probability" area, but chemically, it is playing with dynamite...no pun intended. If there was ever an explosive event with a T with copper tubing that was sold by a vendor as fit for use with acetylene, I would not want to be on the supplier end of the lawsuit, given the plethora of information available to a good lawyer.

https://www.haunweldingsupply.com/documents/61.pdf
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:44 pm

Ok, per the msds “Advice on safe handling: Never use copper piping for acetylene service. Only steel or wrought iron pipe should be used”. In 2003, Brown University issued the following safety alert “Recently, the Office of Environmental Health & Safety (EHS) identified a research laboratory using copper tubing to transport acetylene gas into various pieces of equipment. According to multiple resources and the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS), acetylene (C2H2) is known to form very explosive metallic salts when exposed to metals such as copper, silver, mercury, and brass with high (65% or more) copper content. Utilizing copper tubing or regulators not manufactured specifically for acetylene use poses a severe risk to laboratory personnel. The Office of Environmental Health & Safety recommends that all persons using acetylene gas inspect their systems to ensure that the regulators are manufactured for acetylene and that copper tubing or brass fittings are not in use. Stainless steel tubing is recommended.”.

Given that brass tubing with less than 65% copper is uncommon, it would make sense to me that any T gas lamps that are used regularly should be piped with steel or skip the hard pipe altogether and run all rubber hose. Another option would be copper tubing with coated interior (available from mcmaster-carr) that is lined with 99% pure tin, but then we’re back to copper, not brass for originality. This “coated interior” may be similar to what was referred to as “tin plated” by Smith. I was not able to find a source for brass tubing with coated interior.

Brass for casting that is 60% or less copper is more common, although more brittle than the higher copper alloys used in most tubing. Are we confident that the other available brass lamp fittings, i.e. burners and elbows, are made from an appropriate alloy?

I am now convinced that the copper tubing that was provided in my “hook-up kit” should not be used. Since none of us should be adding any more “built-in” danger to our T’s, what would the general consensus be to restoring a functional gas lamp system?

Keep crankin’
Eric


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:38 am

I had my local radiator shop attach the new gas line to the radiator. I made the radiator gas line, and the frame gas line according to the original Ford prints for '13 and '14. Yes, the original material was brass, and in 1913 they specified tin plated, AND, they double flared the ends of the pipes for a total five flares. Prior to 1912 there were no flares, and no tin plating. I couldn't find a plater in my area that would do tin for a reasonable price, so I had it cad plated instead. I just wasn't up to spending $150 to tin plate those tubes! Judging from the most recent photos of the original untouched '13, I'm going to route my frame tube along the right hand side of the two bolt heads, and the steering support bracket. Unfortunately at this point there is NO correct red tubing for Model T's, which require 7/16". I spoke with Ron Gocek at Hershey last year and mentioned that he had it made the wrong size last time, 5/8". That just won't do! The hole in the splash shield is 7/16" which is what Ford specified. 1/2" will fit through the radiator holes, but not real well through the splash shield. Ron is aware of the problem, and I hope he will solve the problem for us soon. Enough raging for now.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by KWTownsend » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:52 am

Larry-
I look forward to seeing pictures of your project.
- Keith

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Bob McDaniel » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:58 am

I am going to toss this into the fire here and see what happens. What about all the brass carbide generators from who knows when up to 1912? If brass is a problem then how did they not blow up?

Just a thought and worth what you paid for it. :roll:
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Drkbp » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:46 pm

A number of years ago I made a new 44" long "gas lamp tube assembly, rear" used on our T's from July 1912 until the end of gas head lamps. If your 1912 radiator had gas tube holes in the side panels and a cross-over, you had the rear gas tube Larry started this thread about. For mid-1912 thru 1914 gas lamps, it is the only metal part we can make unless you remake the radiator cross-over.

The "flares" on the two ends of the rear gas line look like the detail that R.V. posted of the 1/4" OD tube cross-over on the radiator (below).

I used K&S Metals 1/4" OD tube from the hardware store. It and the 9/32" tube I made the sleeves from is 260 and if I made another one, that is what I would use.

I use a Prest-O-Lite tank because I drive the car at night and can light up in less than two minutes. Drove the 1914 to the barber shop Saturday morning at 5:30a.m. If you use a POL tank and "crack" the valve, I would suggest leaving off a rubber tube clamp at one of the elbows or tank.

Also, the NOS Colt burners & inside screens, Victor stands and elbows are brass on my setup too. I'd be between a rock and a hard place for gas lamps if I didn't use brass.
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CROSS-OVER DETAIL-1912 THRU 1914.jpg


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:27 pm

Bob McDaniel

well, we know a few more things now than in 1912. I have set my copper acetylene lines on a shelf right next to my arsenic animal dip, my asbestos insulation, and radium watch and clock dials.

BTW, I doubt that the danger of acetylene lines were completely unknown in the day. Why do you suppose that the brass lines were tin plated? With the necessity of constant cleaning of the generators, the explosive salts did not likely have time accumulate, and while I am NOT an expert in acetylene generators, I do own a couple on cars, and I seem to recall that the interiors were tin plated, too (I could be relying on faulty memory on that and they may just be dirty).

Today's replacement parts from copper are done out of simple ignorance of the chemistry by the supplier, I am sure. It's neither correct from a restoration standpoint, nor safe for actual use. That's not a statement of my opinion; it's a recognized fact. I would concede an argument made that our use is (generally) so seldom, that these compounds may not have sufficient time/exposure to develop. But the fact remains that exposure of copper or brass of a high copper content to acetylene is a danger known to the government, chemists, and industry. Not knowing about it in our hobby does not change chemistry or keep us safe.

So, be safe! :)
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:39 pm

Kenneth

"Brass" is not a problem. Brass with Cu % equal to or higher than 65% is a problem.

C27200 GENERAL PURPOSE SEAMLESS BRASS TUBE (ASTM B135) is 62-65%. Not (likely) a problem
C38500 Free cutting brass for fittings 56-60%. Not a problem.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:54 pm

Thank you for that detail Scott !
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Bigal » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:03 pm

I have a late 1911 Touring and am looking for the brass "T", "elbow, and "inline sleeve/nipple". Does anyone out there reproduce these? I searched old forums and found that at one time Kim Dobbins and a George made them. I emailed them both and have not received any reply. Maybe to long ago.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:07 pm

This is what I found on "260" brass. "260 Brass (also known as cartridge brass or yellow brass) - the most popular and economical of the brass alloys. Chemical Composition
Copper: 68.5%-71.5%
Iron: 0.05%
Lead: 0.07%
Zinc: 28.5%
Other: 0.15%"

This is consistent across a number of metal suppliers that list their alloy composition. 230 brass, 260 brass and 330 brass are all above the 65% copper threshold, the alloys 260 and 330 have better workability for forming and are therefore used for most brass tubing and piping. It's pretty easy to see that these brass alloys should now be considered inappropriate for use in gas headlamp systems.

360, 464, and 770 brass alloys are all under the 65% copper threshold, these alloys are better suited for machining rather than forming.

All of this points to the fact that for this discussion, brass may or may not be ok, depending on the specific alloy used. I don't know how to determine what alloy was used for a given fitting if not stated by the manufacturer/seller. But it obviously pays to do one's research.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:09 pm

Hi Rich,

I looked at my copy of the Lang's 2012 catalog and the BL-T Gas Headlight hook up kit on page 121 lists the parts as "copper tubing, copper T fitting, red rubber tubing, brass hose clamps, and instructions". The listing has been consistent for at least 7 years, so I think that it is likely that your kit came with copper tubing unless you special ordered it

My 2005 Chaffin's catalog lists a copper T fitting as well. It looks like the vendors have been supplying copper gas hook ups for more than 10 years.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:42 pm

Hi Eric, you are certainly correct about Lang's catalog offering. I guess where I went astray was in not ordering the "kit". From the online catalog, I ordered 44" of brass tubing . . . to run acetylene. I ain't too bright, but I can usually tell copper from brass. The kit offered shows a coil of what appears to be soft copper tubing, and describes a "copper tee". Sure hope no one has a bad reaction from its use.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:37 pm

Apparently I ain't too bright. I can't find any sort of this size of brass tubing in Lang's online or printed catalog, or any of our other regular vendors either.

Since my fall back of McMaster-Carr only sells brass 260 tubing, I should just push this project back and focus on other T projects instead.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:54 pm

Eric, this thread is the first discussion I've found that identifies different brass alloys by copper content. I bought that rigid line in blissful ignorance, and of course I have no idea what alloy it is. If all you've found is 260, that's probably what I have. Alaskan Copper & Brass in San Diego used to be a good source, but any more it's getting hard to impossible for us restorers to get small quantities of many materials for projects. Keep searching, if enough of us are on the lookout for items we need, I'm sure something will turn up !
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:07 pm

So just in case I come across the appropriate brass tubing in reasonable quantities, are there any dimensions/diagrams for the 2 pieces, the mostly straight piece that runs forward in the frame and the radiator crossover tube for radiators with gas tube holes in the side panels with the tee fitting and lightly bent ends.

It should not be much extra effort to make multiple sets to use up a minimum order quantity compared to making just one personal set and keeping the extra material on a shelf.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:21 pm

I don't know when they went to the 1913-14 system, but guessing I'd sometime in late '12. The original print listed above shows the new design, with, the double flares used in '13 & '14. I bought my brass tubing from McMaster Carr, and it arrived the next day in a nice stiff tube. There was enough for the frame, and radiator gas lines with some left over. I bought the 6' length. I have it almost done, except I now need to get some work done on the radiator, which wasn't soldered very well on the drivers side.
The red tubing is the issue now. It is NOT made to Ford specifications, and will not work for a '13-14 because it is 5/8"dia. I suppose it will work for a pre 1912, but maybe not. The hole in the splash shield for my '13 is 7/16", and a 5/8 tube won't fit!
Ron Gocek is aware of the issue, but when he will get around to correct the problem is anyone's guess.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by ewdysar » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:02 pm

OK. Does anyone know how I can see a copy of the original print?


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Rich Bingham » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:09 pm

When I installed this line it was on the best information available at the time. I see from period photos above (and others of original cars) I've likely got it all wrong. :oops: so the line is supposed to run inside the frame rail, under the pan arm blocks, and under the steering column bracket but outside the bolt heads ? This is a '13 with the "tee" and cross pipe soldered to the radiator.
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Drkbp » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:04 am

If using carbide, you may want to run the rear gas line as discussed above when you get a chance.
Keeps the moisture trap at the splash shield hose.
Do you have the frame clamp?


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:23 am

I still don't have my new system intact yet. I discovered my new Brassworks radiator wasn't soldered properly, so it's at the radiator shop now. I really lucked out on the red rubber tubing. I had to buy a kit from a guy who never used his, and the tubing is 1/2". I'll get some photos soon. I learned from a guy who uses his headlights frequently, it's a good idea to detach the gas line somewhere when not in use to vent the system. As far as the brass Tee goes, my partner has the pattern for the Tee. When he will get around to having them made is anyone's guess! Perhaps the reason Ford started tin plating the tubing is they switched to seamed brass tubing. Perhaps the tin plating may help seal the seams? Lastly, a gentleman approached me at Chickasha with part of the radiator tubing in his hand with the Tee attached. It was tin plated.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by richc » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:51 am

Here is the original plated tee Larry referred to.
Acetylene Gas Tee.JPG
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:26 am

Thanks for posting Rich. These photos are important, and yes that is the Tee we are planning to make. The O.D. of that Tee is 3/8, and of course, the I.D. is 1/4.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Fordfarm » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:08 am

While you are at it, Larry, how about making some of these?
Tee.JPG
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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by KimDobbins » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:20 am

Larry, I did some machine work for a friend who works for a Chinese company that does small run casting. I'll see if they do brass. Also you can check with Dennis Oley when we are at Bakersfield. He has small runs done is Oregon. Kim


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:11 am

Sorry I haven't posted pictures yet. I'm currently working on a pair of new hood boards for the front fenders. My originals needed replacing. As soon as I get those installed I'll finish up the gas line routing and submit some photos.


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:25 pm

I recently made two complete gas light BRASS tubing assemblies for my 1913's. They were originally tin plated, but I couldn't find a tin plating shop at a realistic price, so I had them cad plated. Can't tell the difference. A few weeks ago I acquired an original '14, with all the original piping, including the red hose. It verifies everything I did on my 1913's.

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by KWTownsend » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:38 pm

Larry-
We look forward to seeing pictures.

: ^ )

Keith


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Original Smith » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:31 am

I'm not much of a picture taker! I'll try to get some photos of the gas lines. When that will be is another question!

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:50 pm

Hi, First I would like to thank you posting that topic. I really appreciated. Original Smith, I could post pictures for you if that make your life easier. Just send them to me by email.
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by OilyBill » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:58 am

Being concerned about all the statements made about the hazards of acetylene and copper tubing, and being unable to find any reference to an acetylene explosions on an automobile using an acetylene gas system due to use of copper tubes in any of my early books on automobiles, (You would have expected it to be a significant problem during the gas-light era, but I found nothing at all about it,) I looked up a paper written by S.A. Miller and E. Penney in their paper entitled "Hazards of handling acetylene."
According to this paper, typically, explosion hazards arise from HIGH PRESSURE ACETYLENE in contact with copper.
Per their statements. acetylide is formed when in contact with copper tubing or piping if there is PROLONGED EXPOSURE AT HIGH PRESSURES.
They note that in copper tubing with a copper alloy level of less than 65%, the acetylide film adheres very tightly to the tube surface, and they were UNABLE to generate an explosion using friction or a hot wire at 150 degrees C.
They also note that if a higher copper content tubing is used, the deposits CAN grow thicker, but even so, they were unable to detonate it with a steel ball impact against the acetylide flakes. but they COULD detonate it with friction, or a hot wire that reaches 150 degrees C.
I think the reason we have not heard of huge numbers of explosions from this cause is because they DON"T occur in antique automotive acetylene light plumbing systems.
Our systems are NOT continuously subjected to acetylene gas at high pressure.
This paper primarily dealt with HIGH PRESSURE ACETYLENE use in industrial processes. They only mention low pressure acetylene use in passing.
One thing of importance that they note is that explosive flakes of acetylide from copper DO NOT have anywhere near the explosive power of acetylides formed from contact with silver. Copper acetylides did not even fracture a glass test tube when they were detonated, while the acetylides formed from contact with silver were enough to not only shatter the test tube, but also shattered the perspex safety screen they used.
Since our systems use very low pressures of acetylene, and there is no prolonged exposure, as I doubt most early cars have their gas lamps lit more than once or twice per year, I think the safety hazard is pretty low. I would be much more worried about a fire in the acetylene generator, but I was unable to find any info on this hazard as well.
According to Miller and Penney, the pressure rise from the explosion of copper acetylides maxed out during an explosion at around 11.1 to !. Thus, an all-copper light supply line that is pressurized to 1-2 psi, would be subjected to about 15 to 30 psi in a detonation. I think most copper line will stand far more than this.
The most important thing to take away from this paper is to NOT USE SILVER SOLDER IN YOUR PIPE SOLDERING. Use lead plumbing solder ONLY.


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Re: Headlight Gas Line Routing

Post by Greg Griffin » Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:13 pm

Good job researching that information Bill and thanks for posting it here.

....and for those who don't know, acetylene becomes unstable above 15 psig; that is, 15 psig and above is dangerously high pressure for undissolved acetylene. Do Not use hose clamps on acetylene hoses on your car. Ford didn't. The vendors sell them because hobbyists asked for them; they are neither correct nor necessary. (Soft "gum" rubber hoses work better than hard hose.) A hose without a clamp will, in the event of overpressure, blow off of the tube and vent to atmosphere. My gas supplier was not happy with my intended use of acetylene until I pointed that out.

A generator operates at about 1.5 to 2 ounces of pressure--no danger there (unless you close a valve and "bottle it up").

A reference page of safe handling and use of bottled acetylene would be a valuable thing on this site. I see many instances of misuse (MC tanks, hose clamps, etc.) that might be avoided if the basics were presented in a conspicuous place.

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