Coolant

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Coolant

Post by Been Here Before » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:12 am

Noticed some discussion on the Model T and cooling.

We have had our 1922 Coupe for a few years (50). Over those years the coolant of choice has been 100% antifreeze.

Every five years drain, flush, check and replace hoses. Yes It has a water pump. Never had a problem.

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Re: Coolant

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:20 am

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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:22 am

Manufacturers of anti-freeze do not recommend using it at 100%.


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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:31 am



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Re: Coolant

Post by Kajtek1 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:55 am

Driving Mercedes for lot of years, I become big fan of their coolant.
I put it on couple of my Ford Trucks and the engines would run much cooler, what I noticed by radiator fan not coming on even when towing 10k trailer in 95F weather.
There is more to coolant than just "water wettening" and other part is chemical reaction on engine parts, what is well know to Ford 6l Powerstroke owners, who for some reasons crate solids in coolant, who routinely clog oil and EGR coolers.
So I wonder if anybody tested the older engines for material reactions?
To my understanding all we have is aluminum and cast iron?
Where is coolant drain plug on those engines anyway?


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Re: Coolant

Post by Been Here Before » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:33 am

Explain why using straight (100%) glycol type antifreeze (green-type) with rust inhibitors, boiling point 387 dF, Freezing point 9dF for 50 years is bad?

When "waterless" coolant is a glycol-based liquid substance that does not contain water. Its boiling point of 191 dC (375 dF) is higher than that of water-based coolants and it resists the formation of corrosion.

And a product such as WaterWetter® according to the Safety Data Sheet is similar to 50/50 antifreeze and water?

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Re: Coolant

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:05 pm

Been Here Before wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:33 am
Explain why using straight (100%) glycol type antifreeze (green-type) with rust inhibitors, boiling point 387 dF, Freezing point 9dF for 50 years is bad?

When "waterless" coolant is a glycol-based liquid substance that does not contain water. Its boiling point of 191 dC (375 dF) is higher than that of water-based coolants and it resists the formation of corrosion.

And a product such as WaterWetter® according to the Safety Data Sheet is similar to 50/50 antifreeze and water?
Would help to know exactly what product (not just brand) you are using
but
You'll have to read this link to understand the facts https://rivergatemuffler.com/2018/04/st ... solutions/
-The name “antifreeze” might trick you into thinking the coolant cannot freeze at all. But in actuality, pure antifreeze, which is ethylene glycol, will freeze between zero and minus five degrees Fahrenheit. Only by mixing antifreeze with water can you lower that freezing point.
-Pure antifreeze does not have the same ability to transfer heat that a mixture of antifreeze and water does. Using pure antifreeze inside your vehicle’s cooling system causes that system to lose about 35 percent of its ability to transfer heat versus a proper mixture of antifreeze and water.
-Mixing water with your antifreeze coolant keeps additives such as nitrates, phosphates and silicates suspended. Otherwise, they will settle inside the system, which could cause you to lose the protection against corrosion that these additives provide.
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Re: Coolant

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:34 pm

What he said....... I'd add that if you mix your own antifreeze / water solution you should use distilled water. Also, use antifreeze designed for older vehicles....not the new stuff.
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Re: Coolant

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:54 pm

In one of the FB Model T groups one guy said he buys ready made 50/50 because he doesn't want to make a mixing mistake. Dern tootin'. Dumping a gallon of distilled water and a gallon of antifreeze into a five gallon pail is so complicated and confusing that you can easily get it wrong. :D
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Re: Coolant

Post by Erik Johnson » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:32 pm

RE: "mixing mistakes" and modern car DIY coolant flush and replacement

On my modern cars, I have always done my own coolant flushes, using a flush kit that has a "T" that you splice into the water heater hose in order to hook up a garden hose.

Unless you remove the engine block coolant drain plug(s), it is impossible to completely drain all the water out of the system via the radiator petcock after you have completed the flush with straight water.

Therefore, you look in the owners manual for the cooling system capacity and divide that number in half. That is the amount of straight antifreeze to add to cooling system after you have flushed it and drained the radiator. Then, you top it off with straight water until the system is full, bleeding the air as needed.

There are a lot of YouTube videos of guys showing how to flush a modern cooling system by draining the radiator, filling the system with water, running the engine and repeating this cycle a few times and then adding 50/50. This method is bad as it doesn't account for the water still in the water jackets of the block after the radiator is drained. It also doesn't back flush the heater core.


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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:46 pm

I would not want to put any coolant that had a boiling point over about 240 F into a Model T or any other non-pressurized thermosyphon cooling system.


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Re: Coolant

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:08 pm

50:50 ethylene glycol and water density at 0C: 1.0873 gm/cm^3
50:50 ethylene glycol and water density at 20C: 1.0824 gm/cm^3
after absorbing some heat, the hotter mixture of coolant mix is .0049 gm/cm^3 less dense, which would start the stratification eventually heading toward circulation (at a greater density differential)

straight water density at 0C but just liquid: 1.000 gm/cm^3
straight water density at 20C: 0.9982 gm/cm^3
after absorbing some heat, the hotter water is .0018 gm/cm^3 less dense, which would start the stratification eventually heading toward circulation (at a greater density differential).

I wish that I could have found charts which showed density at real-world operating temperatures, but I could not. In any event, the 50:50 coolant mixture will change density just fine in order to thermo-syphon. In fact, it appears to more rapidly lose density at elevated temperatures than pure water, which would indicate an increased propensity to thermo-syphon. However, it will absorb less heat and thus will run a little hotter than water as it is a slightly less efficient heat exchange medium.

With respect to what the boiling point is on any given coolant, that is moot for our purposes in that the T does not require anything to boil for the cooling system to work. If you would rather see the coolant go up in vapor to indicate trouble, rather than not boil, then your car has far more problems than the choice of coolant will solve.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:16 pm

Personally, I'd rather that the coolant in a Model T boiled before the engine got up to 300 F +. Boilover has probably saved many a T from engine damage by advertising the fact that overheating is occuring in a way that most anyone can observe and understand. I'll run "green" antifreeze in mine at 50/50 with clean water, and if overheating is evident, I'll correct the problem(s) so as to keep the engine running within its design limits under all driving conditions.


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Re: Coolant

Post by Joe Reid » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:36 pm

The real idea is not about boiling water but keeping the engine cool. Model T’s run very close to the boiling point and need very clean cooling systems to function. What temperature is required to keep from damaging the engine? The correct system should function on just water.

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Re: Coolant

Post by Tim Rogers » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:39 pm

No brand of antifreeze has a 387 degree boiling point in a non pressurized cooling system...
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Re: Coolant

Post by Kajtek1 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:49 pm

Erik Johnson wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:32 pm
RE: "mixing mistakes" and modern car DIY coolant flush and replacement

On my modern cars, I have always done my own coolant flushes, using a flush kit that has a "T" that you splice into the water heater hose in order to hook up a garden hose.

Unless you remove the engine block coolant drain plug(s), it is impossible to completely drain all the water out of the system via the radiator petcock after you have completed the flush with straight water.

Therefore, you look in the owners manual for the cooling system capacity and divide that number in half. That is the amount of straight antifreeze to add to cooling system after you have flushed it and drained the radiator. Then, you top it off with straight water until the system is full, bleeding the air as needed.

There are a lot of YouTube videos of guys showing how to flush a modern cooling system by draining the radiator, filling the system with water, running the engine and repeating this cycle a few times and then adding 50/50. This method is bad as it doesn't account for the water still in the water jackets of the block after the radiator is drained. It also doesn't back flush the heater core.
It is easy when you know system capacity.
You add 1/2 of capacity with concentrated coolant and top off with DW.
With DW selling at Walmart for 80-90 cents, I buy several gallons and do the water flush just fine. Removing engine block plug can open whole can of worms.
Been doing that for decades. My cars usually have 8-9 liters of cooling system capacity.
Living in hot climates, freezing is never an issue, when using good coolant my cars never overheat.
So I just buy 1 gallon of coolant and add whatever it takes with DW, to have 40-45% of mix ratio. Slightly lower boiling point, but again - never an issue for me.


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Re: Coolant

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:35 pm

Pat

50/50 ethylene glycol/water will boil at 223F. Not terribly much hotter than pure water.

You are perhaps mistaking Evans Water Wetter which boils at 375F, and I do not think a single person has mentioned that product until now.
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Re: Coolant

Post by Craig Leach » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:19 am

I have worked on Fire pumps for twenty years. If you have ever seen what happens to them you would never put tap water in anything cast iron.


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Re: Coolant

Post by John Codman » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:25 am

Oldav8tor wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:34 pm
What he said....... I'd add that if you mix your own antifreeze / water solution you should use distilled water. Also, use antifreeze designed for older vehicles....not the new stuff.
I agree with the above but it's a "do as I say, not as I do." I have never used distilled water in any cooling system. The reason? I'm damned if my car is going to get better water then I do. I change the coolant every five years and I've never had a problem that could be connected to the coolant that I use.


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Re: Coolant

Post by Chris Haynes » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:35 pm

Been Here Before wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:33 am
Explain why using straight (100%) glycol type antifreeze (green-type) with rust inhibitors, boiling point 387 dF, Freezing point 9dF for 50 years is bad?
I tried 100% in m '64 Chevy pickup. It caused the engine to run much hotter.

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Re: Coolant

Post by Susanne » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:28 pm

I tried this as well with my '61 Fury, and it too ran really hot - I came to the conclusion that while it may have a higher boiling point (and lower FP) that it's thermal conductivity was apparently horrible as compared to good old H2O or a 50/50 mix... To me that's the important factor - even if "water wetter" is somehow more compatable to cast iron et al, does it absorb heat at the same rate as water, AND does it shed that heat as easily in a cooling radiator?


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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:04 pm

Actually, Big Antifreeze is plotting to corner all the planet's ethylyne glycol for themselves, which is why they persist in misleading the public into mixing hydrogen dioxide into automotive antifreeze. They nothing more than profit-driven capitalist running dog hooligans in cahoots with Big Petrochemical and the John Birch Society!


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Re: Coolant

Post by jab35 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:45 pm

I've always used Di-Hydrogen Oxide, no troubles so far. jb


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Re: Coolant

Post by Allan » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:23 am

I have no use for antifreeze here in South Australia. Think southern California climate. I use half a cup of soluble oil in rainwater in motors with iron heads and a green coolant mix if an alloy head os fitted. On the hottest of days a T will boil, but it does no damage unless the level gets too low. I once had to stop at the top of a long uphill pull and allow the car to cool before topping up the radiator.
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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:02 am

I believe that period Ford literature mentions the possibility of occasional boilover and emphasized the need to check the water level frequently and keep the radiator supplied with clean water on an as-needed basis. I see no reason not to take advantage of a good anti-freeze solution's anti-corrosion properties and somewhat higher boiling point. It won't repair a leaky or fouled cooling system, but it will contribute to keeping a clean cooling system in good order. On the down side, it can be murder on paint, and you do not want it in your crank case, so that's a couple of good reasons not to use it in a leaky and/or already clogged system. Be sure your system is clean and tight, including the head gasket. It it isn't clean and tight, fix it. Black pepper and oatmeal can be useful in the short term, but there is no substitute for a clean, tight cooling system, no matter what you are driving.


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Re: Coolant

Post by Been Here Before » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:51 pm

I have been questioned as to why I don't believe in the science of a 50/50 mixture of water and antifreeze. Well I do. The information I am using for a 100% glycol mixture comes from my father's library and discussions years back with him on engine rebuilding. During WWII he was an Army Air Force aircraft mechanic, later a machinist in civilian life.

A publication from 1939 has some interesting information on Liquid Cooled Vee Engines. Merlin/Rolls/Packard/Curtiss/Allison and others.One publication from 1939, Aircraft Engine Maintenance, Brimm and Boggess, pages 68 and 130-131 contains the following statement." Using a chemical coolant it is possible to permit an engine temperature to run as high as 350 degrees F." (but page 130, it is recommended not to exceed 250 df) The mixture of coolant is one part ethylene and one part di-ethylene-glycol (100% antifreeze?).

Nowhere in this publication was there a comment on 50% water and 50% antifreeze.

Safe operating temperature not to exceed 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

We have used the 100% glycol in a number of small engines, Renault, MG, Triumph. AC-AD3's, Packards of the late 1930-1940's and Ford 292, 351s. And Farmall. And in the1922 Model T Coupe.

I am not recommending this mixture, I am stating I (as well as my father in his lifetime) used this mixture with no major problems.
Scan1939liquidcooling 2.jpg

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Re: Coolant

Post by Fordwright » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:04 pm

Too much water, it can freeze.
Too much glycol, it will gel.

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Re: Coolant

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:50 pm

Been Here Before wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:51 pm
...
A publication from 1939 has some interesting information on Liquid Cooled Vee Engines. Merlin/Rolls/Packard/Curtiss/Allison and others.One publication from 1939, Aircraft Engine Maintenance, Brimm and Boggess, pages 68 and 130-131 contains the following statement." Using a chemical coolant it is possible to permit an engine temperature to run as high as 350 degrees F." (but page 130, it is recommended not to exceed 250 df) The mixture of coolant is one part ethylene and one part DI-ethylene-glycol (100% antifreeze?).

Nowhere in this publication was there a comment on 50% water and 50% antifreeze.
Safe operating temperature not to exceed 250 degrees Fahrenheit.
.......
Devil's Advocate position.
Facts:
The following temperatures were checked on several websites
Undiluted ethylene glycol has a boiling point of 197.6 ° C (387.7 ° F) and freezing point of -13 ° C (8.6 ° F).
Diluted ethylene glycol with 50/50 water, the boiling point is 107 ° C (225 ° F), respectively the freezing point of -37 ° C (-34 ° F)
Undiluted propylene glycol has a boiling point of 188 ° C (370.4 ° F) and a freezing point of -59 ° C (-74.2 ° F)
Diluted propylene glycol with 50/50 water, the boiling point is 105 ° C (221 ° F), respectively the freezing point of -32.2 ° C (-26 ° F).
Di-ethylene glycol has high boiling point and more viscosity so it is more benefit than ethylene glycol http://www.ijirset.com/upload/2017/janu ... YSIS_R.pdf possible reason for the mixture used in the Merlin
Safe operating temperatures (note the word SAFE not what is possible)
Merlin/Rolls/Packard/Curtiss/Allison not to exceed 250 degrees Fahrenheit.
Model T between 195 degrees and 220 degrees Fahrenheit

Decision in selecting a coolant mixture:
Should be such as to maintain a safe operating temperature - must be above the safe operating temperature.
Decision in selecting an anti-freeze mixture:
Should be such as to maintain a safe operating temperature based on weather conditions in the area's of operation - must be below the lowest recorded level.
Undiluted ethylene glycol has a freezing point of -13 ° C (8.6 ° F) caution in considering this mixture as an ant-freeze

Conclusion:
Everybody may be correct in their decision if their mixture is within SAFE operating temperature ranges for their area of use.
Charts from https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethy ... d_146.html
Attachments
ethylene.jpg
propy.jpg
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Re: Coolant

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:54 pm

Guess I'm lost in the dust. I really fail to see any correlation at all between a Model T Ford and an advanced liquid-cooled aero engine such as the "Rolls Royce" Marlin (btw. Packard built most of them). About the same as arguing that a tabby-cat and a Bengal tiger are both "felines". :lol:
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Re: Coolant

Post by Been Here Before » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:19 pm

What Frank said: "Everybody may be correct in their decision if their mixture is within SAFE operating temperature ranges for their area of use."

Where I live, the average temperature range is from a Low of 17 degrees F. to a high of 82 degrees F. Yes there are extremes. Yes I take precautions for extreme cold.

Again thanks to those who commented.

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Re: Coolant

Post by A Whiteman » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:53 pm

"Rolls Royce" Marlin (btw. Packard built most of them).
I think Packard had to redo all the drawings and optimise the design for US style production. The British original was designed in the 1930s around fairly small 'cottage industry' when compared to huge US manufacturing capabilities.

The main advantage of the US 'redo' was that parts could be made faster and near on 100% of the parts fit first time cf the British approach which meant a bit of fiddling to get engines assembled = Packard could easily make the engines much more quickly = they could make many more.

Add that to the un-bombed factories = much much greater capacity for production. So a triumph of US manufacturing (funny thing is that it was still a British designed and developed engine - much like the first PW jet turbines too....)

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Re: Coolant

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:25 pm

Rich Bingham wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:54 pm
Guess I'm lost in the dust. I really fail to see any correlation at all between a Model T Ford and an advanced liquid-cooled aero engine such as the "Rolls Royce" Marlin (btw. Packard built most of them). About the same as arguing that a tabby-cat and a Bengal tiger are both "felines". :lol:
I believe the point is that the technology/mechanical (thermal siphoning, water pump, pressurized system, etc) device being used in an engine needs to work in concert with the coolant/antifreeze ratio used in order to maintain proper operating engine temperatures based on the area of use. A 1966 VW engine is also a "feline" isn't it?
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Scott_Conger
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Re: Coolant

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:25 pm

Re: Merlin engines running 100% glycol

What is the typical operational altitude and temperature of said engine? Varies, but typically though not always, high altitude and naturally very cold air passing through the radiators.
What is the total capacity of the cooling system of said engine? Unknown, but definitely sized for the thermally inefficient 100% glycol and ambient operational temperatures.

What is the Model T cooling capacity? Typically just enough to run water or 50:50 coolant with typically little margin if you're pulling a 2 mile long 6% grade on a western tour. It is definitely not sized to run a coolant that has a fraction of the thermal capacity of the water that it was designed for. The Model T is, from my experience, not sized to run a coolant that has around 60% of the cooling capacity of water in a stock radiator without some belts and suspenders. Rereading your initial post, I see that you also run a water pump. It is no wonder, and quite possibly an apparatus that is not needed if you ran something other than WWII Aircraft coolant in the car.

It's fun to run a manifold cooker on tours. I'm thinking now of maybe putting Jello pudding in the radiator so as to have a dessert, too! I just have to find a 10HP engine small enough to fit under the hood to run the pump!

George, I'm not trying to beat up on you or anyone else, though I do admit it sounds like it. The thing is, in a year or two, someone new is going to come along and ask "what oil is best?", and "what coolant is best?" and if they find this thread in their search, I do not want them for a second to conclude that 100% Glycol has worked for more than a handful of people and while it may be perfect for a WWII aircraft, it is in fact a terrible coolant for the T; with neither the cooling capacity of other popular and appropriate choices, nor the anti-freeze capacity of other popular and appropriate choices. From fly-swatters, to house paint, to you-name-it, I have always chosen products based on their best fitness and exceptional service for the job they were going to do.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

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TXGOAT2
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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:53 pm

What is the boiling point and specific heat of strong black coffee?


TXGOAT2
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Re: Coolant

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:56 pm

A gear-driven, gear-type pump is recommeded by the SAE for Jell-O cooled 4-cycle gasoline engines in general automotive service. Be careful when operating a Jell-O cooled vehicle around beehives or near Mama. Papa, and Baby Bear.

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