True Fire ignition support?

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walber
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True Fire ignition support?

Post by walber » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:56 pm

Does anyone support the True-Fire ignition system with parts or information? A friend got one of those setups in a box when he bought his car. The main coil portion looks to be fine but the timer has been abused and is likely shot. Any ideas about where to find support and/or documentation would be appreciated.
Thank You,
Walt Berdan
wberdan at comcast dot net or 425 614 6650

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by TWrenn » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:54 pm

Highly doubtful. Bittner, (forgot his last name), seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth.

If you can get ahold of Jim Golden, he's pretty sharp on these items, maybe he can help you.

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:57 pm

Ed Bittner is the guy who produced those - I would strongly suggest a different system.

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by walber » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:15 pm

Steve, I wouldn't be placing a lot of trust in a unique system that no longer has any support. I've used a few different ignition systems and have my faves, they each have parts or service readily available. This is a question for a friend who would like to make it work if it can be done reasonably. He knows other options are available that are easier to get parts for.

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:37 pm

What is shot in the timer? Is the circuit board damaged? Is the plastic rotor with the two magnets missing?

If both of those things are OK, then those parts can be moved over to another timer housing.

My 1924 came to me in 2013 with a Truefire and it runs well and has been reliable so far. One thing to be careful of is to be sure to set the timing per Bittner's instructions. You will likely have to lengthen the timer rod to get it correct.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1423931331
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by DanTreace » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Link to True Fire Factory Instructions:

https://dokumen.tips/documents/true-fir ... -6-to.html
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:42 pm

Thanks Dan! I did not have that one!

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by walber » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:38 pm

Mark,

Just checked back with my friend, turns out the rotor is lost. By chance do you have a spare?

I've been in touch with Jim Golden, a wealth of information about the system. He sent me a variety of documents about the system and I have forwarded them to my friend.

Walt

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:44 pm

I have an entire spare unit with the ignition box, timer circuit board, rotor, and instructions that I bought new from Lang's a few years ago.

Give it a few days - If nobody else comes forward to provide a rotor for you, then I suppose I could cannibalize my complete spare unit for the rotor.

With the number of folks who have removed their Truefire units over the years, I have to believe that somebody has a spare rotor lying around. :)
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:54 pm

I have two systems short of a rotor, due to their meltdowns on over heated engines.

Someone got some of those little magnets to make some, but he never did.

I gave him all the dimensions of my only new one.

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:02 pm

walber wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:38 pm
Mark,

Just checked back with my friend, turns out the rotor is lost. By chance do you have a spare?

I've been in touch with Jim Golden, a wealth of information about the system. He sent me a variety of documents about the system and I have forwarded them to my friend.

Walt
You might have missed this link that was in one of the past forum posts mentioned above https://patents.google.com/patent/US6976482
It has the patent diagrams of the timer etc
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:21 pm

Jim, if you still have those dimensions, could you publish them here? Somebody with a 3D printer could probably do a run of them.

I measure my rotor as 1 3/8 inches in diameter and 13/16 inches in height. It has two small cylindrical neodymium magnets embedded in the periphery, 180 degrees apart. One of the magnets is lined up with the slot in the nose of the rotor that the timing pin fits into. Each magnet is about 1/4 inch in diameter and 1/4 inch tall. They are pressed into the plastic so that they are flush with the surface.
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by Allan » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:13 pm

When I first put my 1912 Chocolate van on the road in1995 I quickly ran out of good working Heinze coils. I wanted to keep the excellent original coilbox, so Ed Bittner made me a special unit with spacer and modified contacts to fit the box. It has served me well for decades. In my experience, those who have had problems with the system have often been adopters trying to fix an existing problem. The only time I have ever been let down was when the whole cabin and coilbox were drenched in a rainstorm. I have a used spare set-up in the shelves as a back-up now, but no extra rotor.

Allan from down under.

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:00 pm

CudaMan wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:21 pm
Jim, if you still have those dimensions, could you publish them here? Somebody with a 3D printer could probably do a run of them.

I measure my rotor as 1 3/8 inches in diameter and 13/16 inches in height. It has two small cylindrical neodymium magnets embedded in the periphery, 180 degrees apart. One of the magnets is lined up with the slot in the nose of the rotor that the timing pin fits into. Each magnet is about 1/4 inch in diameter and 1/4 inch tall. They are pressed into the plastic so that they are flush with the surface.
I wouldn't think that they were both magnetic, design likely to act like a modern electronic ignition (Hall Effect). The other may be a counter balance being 180 degrees. Normally the South pole of the magnet is used (should verify) and which is positioned to the notch on t he rotor. Also an important question is what components are is in each of the 4 posts of the timer body + other electronic parts and that they are functioning properly.
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:34 pm

I just checked, both cylindrical objects pressed in the rotor 180 degrees apart are strong magnets. :)
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:53 pm

CudaMan wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:34 pm
I just checked, both cylindrical objects pressed in the rotor 180 degrees apart are strong magnets. :)
What is the polarity of each? I was expecting just one magnet passing a post at each sensor for the firing order 1,3,4,2. The wiring to the TRU-FIRE Box has Posts 1 & 4 (180 degrees apart on the timer) connected to the same position on the box - so I would still expect one magnet to be South and the other North. Can you check with a compass? Trying to understand.
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by Les Schubert » Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:46 pm

I m pretty sure the Trufire did a “waste fire” on each plug. The nature of the coils

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:10 am

The Truefire is indeed a "wasted spark" system, it fires a pair of plugs at a time.

Both magnets on the rotor are south poles. The pointer on my compass points at each magnet when I draw it close. Is this vital to the operation of the unit? I have no idea!

Fun fact, currently the earth's magnetic north pole is in Antarctica, which means what people usually call "magnetic north" on the earth is actually a south pole. The earth's magnetic field does periodically reverse polarity over geologic spans of time, so after the next switch magnetic north will actually be near the north pole. Of course, then all of our compasses will be 180 degrees off! :)

https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour ... 20polarity.
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by wdjensen123 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:26 pm

Testing... first post, hope it works !


Bill Jensen here, friend of Walt Berdan near me...


With the info you all posted here, I am able to fabricate the only missing piece : the lost white plastic rotor with 2 magnet parts piece. The rest of my True fire can work again. I had removed it when I got my T, it was working. But it rolled away !
In reverting to wood coils I found spark gaps at about .045, rod lengths were wierd, etc etc. And my T would not hardly move in low gear.


Here is the information I got from you all here I needed :


A closeup picture of the white plastic, a reference dimension, notch and pin hole relative positions to magnets and rotor shaft, number of magnets, rough sizes, that they are rare earth neodymium, flush, and type of NS polarity pointing outwards to a needle compass ! I can now Make it !


Yayyyy Thank you forum please, I have not been able to post there. I thought a T had reverse, Lo Hi, 3 speed transmission, so I could not join.



Sincerely, a Very grateful, less demoralized new T owner...
Bill Jensen

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:40 pm

Glad you were able to post! If you make one for yourself, how about making a run of five or so? Just from the OP and other folks that have posted in this thread I think you would sell them pretty fast. :)
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:14 pm

I could use two or three of those too, as I have two systems that did a melt down from excessive heat.

I didn't keep the measurements for that part and I forgot who was going to try to make some of them.

He had already purchased the magnets, so they are available.

I have a test set that can test a new rotor.

Moving that notch slightly could eliminate the problem of trying to stretch the spark rod.


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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by frontyboy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:44 pm

I have run a Tru fire on my original 1912 for years with no trouble. I did talk with Bittner several years ago and he suggested I place mylar strips between the the outputs on the inside rear of the coil box. This was to eliminate any possibility of cross fire or jumping spark.

My '12 runs strong and fast with no missing or rotor problems. I think most of the problems I read about are a little misunderstanding of the original directions. I have had good communication with Bittner over the years and he was forth coming with information and help. I have not talked with him now for several years. I purchased a Bittner system that was not functioning. I sent it to Bittner and he fixed it for $75.00. His comments were that it had been hooked up in reverse which smoked the pc board. He went on to say most everyone that had problems was indeed hooked up in reverse. It takes about 100th of a second to pop the pc board. Ofcourse no one admitted they reversed the polarity and just blamed the system. After being hooked up in reverse it will run for a while then starting problems. I'm not an electronic expert by any means but following the directions to the letter and installing the mylar in the coil box has eliminated problem for me.

I am not saying it is a perfect system but doing everything by the instructions and adding the mylar strips mine is working perfectly and provides very hot spark and easy quick starting.

I have purchased a couple of systems at swap meets and by trial and error my extra coil systems work just fine and I keep them for spares. The 2 I purchased have melted rotors and I would gladly purchase 2 new rotors if and when available.



just sayin'
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by CudaMan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:29 am

Walt Berdan is making good progress on a home made run of replacement rotors, I expect an announcement from him soon. :)
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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:58 pm

You need two rotor magnets, as the TrueFire only has two Ford Waste Spark coils.

The engine ties two spark plugs together in series, 1 and 4, or 2 and 3, for each spark delivered.

So whenever 1 gets a spark, it is shared with 4 and vice versa.

Only one cylinder is coming up with a gas load waiting to fire just before the time it hits top dead center.

At the same time, the other cylinder is pushing the burnt gas out with the exhaust valve open.

That is considered the "waste spark" cylinder, as nothing happens there, unless the spark is late, and the cylinder has started down, with the intake valve open.

Then you get a backfire through your carburetor and that sometimes starts an engine fire.

The gap on both spark plugs has to be the same to evenly share the two sparks.

Not a problem, as both of those Ford coils deliver between 7,500 and 9,000 AC volts.

I do not have a way to measure the exact AC voltage.

I do not have the rotor size figures either, but I could measure my last new one again and get them.

My TrueFire test set still has a new rotor for comparison with others I test.


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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by jab35 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:51 pm

"The engine ties two spark plugs together in series, 1 and 4, or 2 and 3, for each spark delivered.
So whenever 1 gets a spark, it is shared with 4 and vice versa."
I think it's actually two plugs in Parallel, small detail except in Parallel one fouled plug does not compromise spark in the other as would be the case in a series circuit. Best, jb

**4/30**
Jim: My bad, thanks for the respectful correction, plugs fire in series as you stated. Best, jb
Last edited by jab35 on Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by walber » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:54 pm

As Mark mentioned above, I've been working on making some replacement rotors. With a couple prototypes made and tested, I will be able to make a few more if there is any interest. I'll add a post on the Classifieds - Parts section of the Forum. In the mean time, if you have an interest you could contact me at wberdan at comcast dot net.


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Re: True Fire ignition support?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:58 pm

James, they are in series and connected together by the engine frame, look at the patent.

That makes the spark gaps have to be equal to equally share the spark.

The Ford Coil supplies about 9,000 AC Volts that is equally divided.

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