Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
joe.wal
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:33 pm
First Name: Joerg
Last Name: Walther
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: FarFarAway (Germany)
MTFCA Number: 31419
Board Member Since: 2014

Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by joe.wal » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:57 am

After some trying last year to get off the left rear wheel without success (using the puller did not show any result) I now followed the hint I read here somewhere and this was driving a short distance with slightly loosened axle shaft nut.
Moving some meters to and fro already did it. Although I did not here a sound of the wheel getting loose on the axle (it was said there could be one) the puller now did what it is supposed to do without too much effort.

20210331_164411.jpg
Reason for taking the wheel off was a loud 'tok - tok - tok ...' while driving and moving the T by hand in the garage - and this since I bought the T in 2015.
I never could find a loose spoke by wiggling every spoke and knocking against so I supposed perhaps some parts inside the brake drum were having contact they better should not have.
As obvious on the below photos there is no mark to be seen that could be caused by any bolt or nut or anything else rubbing against each other.
The bright stripe in the brake drum was caused by the end of the axle when taking the wheel off.


So what else could cause a loud sound like that ?
https://youtu.be/OqvN6gMgjAA
Attachments
20210331_164550.jpg
20210331_164525.jpg
1916 Touring

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:18 am

Do you know whether the rear axle has ever been rebuilt?
http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Norman Kling
Posts: 4070
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:30 am

From your description of the sound Tok Tok Tok it sounds to me like a problem with the wood wheel. Loose spokes can sound like that and also loose rivets between the wood felloe and the rim can also cause a noise like that. The spoke could be loose at the feloe and as the wheel turns the felloe will move up and down on the end of the spoke. You might not feel a wobble from side to side until the wear gets worse. So if it were mine, I would remove the tire and check the rivets between the rim and the felloe, and also try to tighten up the spoke. There are other threads on how to do just that.
Just a month or so ago, a friend brought his 14 up here for me to check. He thought the engine was misfiring, because under certain conditions the car would seem to jerk like it was missing on one cylinder. It turned out that the rim had almost come off the felloe. He sent the wheel out to be rebuilt.
Norm


mtntee20
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:51 pm
First Name: Terry & Sharon
Last Name: Miller
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1920 Center Door, 1920 TTWood cab Farm Truck with cable dump grain bed, 1920 TT C-Cab with express bed, 1927 Wood body Dairy Delivery truck
Location: Westminster, CO
MTFCA Number: 32583
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by mtntee20 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:37 am

Joerg,

I see some wear on the TOP brake shoe near the brake cam. There is also a matching wear pattern on the inside of the brake drum. I agree with you, and I do not see anything that would cause the sound you hear.

I agree with Mr. Jelf, and the sound may well be coming from your rear end and not from the wheel areas. Does your axle slide in/out or up/down to any extent?

Good Luck,
Terry


Dan McEachern
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 am
First Name: DAN
Last Name: MCEACHERN
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: too many. '14 touring, 2 depot hacks, 2 speedsters
Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Dan McEachern » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:52 am

For sure what Norman said above- most likely loose wheel hub bolts. Order new bolts and nuts would be my choice. You can try tigntening yours, but be aware that the nuts on old bolts often strip out when you tighten them.


DHort
Posts: 2461
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:30 pm
First Name: Dave
Last Name: Hjortnaes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Speedster, 20 touring
Location: Men Falls, WI
MTFCA Number: 28762
MTFCI Number: 22402

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by DHort » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:24 pm

Is it just the pictures? I do not see evidence of a felt washer on that wheel.

User avatar

Jeff5015
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:20 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Schroeder
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: Pensacola FL
MTFCA Number: 50300
MTFCI Number: 87
Board Member Since: 2019

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jeff5015 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:19 pm

Hey Joe,

Does it sound like this?
Only from the left rear wheel too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

Jeff in Florida
1916 Touring


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Allan » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:02 pm

Joerg, there does not seem to be a reason for the noise at the axle/hub area. Is your tok tok tok consistent, or does to go tok tok tok, pause, and then tok tok tok again a little later. If the noise it wheel related it may be that one section/felloe is loose on the rim while the other is sound. If you can roll the car on a flat surface for a bit, see if you can hear the noise from outside the car. A tell tale sign of problems here is a powdery, rusty stain between components.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
joe.wal
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:33 pm
First Name: Joerg
Last Name: Walther
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: FarFarAway (Germany)
MTFCA Number: 31419
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by joe.wal » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:07 am

Thanks a lot for all the answers and hints so far !

Let me give some feedback please:

@ Terry: no movement on the axle - checked it several times before, the wheel was sitting solid in every direction

@ Norman and Dan. o.k., will recheck the wheel / spokes / bolts

@ David: the falt washer is there, just greasy and compressed. I already exchanged it for a new one

@ Jeff: seems to be the same sound so you might have the same issue

@ Allan: it is a regular tok tok when moving the T. No stain to be seen but I washed the car last year before the radiator was crushed and did only drive once some hundred meters since then.

@ Steve: I had the luck that a former owner from the USA sent me some photos of the T being in a professional garage for rear axle rebuilt in 2006 - there can be seen other Model T's in the garage on other photos so I believe they knew how to do it and the axle is o.k.

17 t 016.jpg
17 t 015.jpg
It will last now a while until I get back to work on the T but will keep you updated on any progress.
1916 Touring


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 2951
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: Van
Location: S.E. Michigan
MTFCA Number: 24868

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:19 am

Have you removed the axle seal and had a look at the Hyatt bearing & axle shaft? I'd look there next.


Sarikatime
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:47 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Seress
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 Towncar, 1915 Touring
Location: Prescott, Arizona
MTFCA Number: 27707

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Sarikatime » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:23 am

Check to see if the pin in the universal joint is in place or maybe slipped partially out and rubbing on the housing as the driveshaft turns. I had a similar problem long ago but never could find out what it was. Took everything apart, tightened everything and still had the toc toc toc unsolved. Frank


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 2951
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: Van
Location: S.E. Michigan
MTFCA Number: 24868

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:33 am

Let's assume that each "tock", of your "tock tock tock" noise, occurs with one revolution. The question then is, does it occur at one revolution of the wheel/axle shaft, or does it occur at one revolution of the driveshaft? Having a sense of the frequency of the noise, can help you indicate the source of the noise. If you push the car ahead slowly and allow the wheels to make one revolution, do you hear one "tock", or do you hear approximately three? Three would indicate the driveshaft, or something driveshaft related, as the source. Maybe the U-Joint???? Hearing it 12 times would be the spokes.

User avatar

Jeff5015
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:20 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Schroeder
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: Pensacola FL
MTFCA Number: 50300
MTFCI Number: 87
Board Member Since: 2019

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jeff5015 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:35 am

joe.wal wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:07 am
@ Jeff: seems to be the same sound so you might have the same issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

Watch the video I posted. The tock, tock, tock sound is irregular and not once per revolution, but not every spoke.
I had the engine off and in neutral for my recording. It seems louder on the outside of the wheel.

Tock noise was there before I had replace the shim and after replacing it. There is no sign of parts contacting each other inside the drum.

btw, We have the same car - '16 Touring (both black too!)
1916 Touring


Dan Haynes
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:37 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Haynes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: several
Location: Lodi, CA

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Dan Haynes » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:49 am

The noise in this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

...is loose spokes creaking as the car's weight shifts as the wheel rolls.
"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it." -George Orwell

User avatar

Jeff5015
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:20 pm
First Name: Jeff
Last Name: Schroeder
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: Pensacola FL
MTFCA Number: 50300
MTFCI Number: 87
Board Member Since: 2019

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jeff5015 » Sat May 22, 2021 7:29 pm

Dan Haynes wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:49 am
The noise in this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khk1BkFTYjc

...is loose spokes creaking as the car's weight shifts as the wheel rolls.
Bingo Dan.

Joerg, I removed the wheel took out the hub bolts and found wear on the bolts at the point they pass through the inner and outer hub plates (or whatever they're called.)

I ordered 12 bolts and 12 nuts for both rear wheels from Langs, disassembled, replace bolts, put it back on and no more tock, tock, tock noise.

Thanks, Dan Haynes.
1916 Touring

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Oldav8tor » Sat May 22, 2021 7:59 pm

Maybe somebody suggested this and I missed it but did you try putting the rear end up on jack stands, chocking the front wheels and running the engine? The wheels will turn, even in neutral although you might have to hold one to get the other to spin. If it still makes the noise, your problem might not be in the wheel spokes. When up on jacks, you can give other areas a careful listen.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 22, 2021 8:52 pm

Jeff

while Dan is correct in the source of the sound, your replacing the bolts/nuts has solved a symptom, but not the root cause. You and Joerg will both be rebuilding wheels sooner or later.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 2951
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: Van
Location: S.E. Michigan
MTFCA Number: 24868

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat May 22, 2021 9:57 pm

Take a look at the photo of the car, dated 2006. Notice the 6 shiny, new, unpainted hub bolts in the same wheel. There was an issue with that wheel even then. As Scott C. mentions, just replacing the bolts won't cure the issue. Apparently, it didn't in 2006 either.

User avatar

Topic author
joe.wal
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:33 pm
First Name: Joerg
Last Name: Walther
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: FarFarAway (Germany)
MTFCA Number: 31419
Board Member Since: 2014

Update: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by joe.wal » Sun May 23, 2021 7:49 am

Thank you all for the new posts and hints.

When lifting the rear end and running the T in high gear on stands there was no noise from the wheel.
Trying to find one specialist in Germany for a rebuild is not that easy - there seems to be a company specialized in vintage car wheels but that is in Bavaria (500 miles from me) and would be a 'plan b'.
I fastened all bolts and put boiled linseed oil wherever it would flow - and YES I am aware it is no cure but that must do it for now.

Yesterday at least I finished to reline the brakes - and of course the linings are too thick with 5 mm (I bought it per meter and obviously did measure the distance in the brake drum somehow wrong). At least after some grinding at the ends of the linings (and YES I am aware one should not do it but that must do it for now ...) the wheel is on again and is turning but the brake rod now is too short so I will add some 'long nut' (when finished pictures will show what I mean). Next step will be to have the car running on stands to let the new linings 'run in'.

With all said let me point out that I am not the professional mechanic and I envy all the fellows around here who have all kind of equipment, take their T apart and together every second day and do know all the details of 'how to' as well as do's and don'ts. For me it is always a challenge to find out what is not working and how to cure it - so please do not be to hard in condemning my tinkering on my T - I do believe that this car is somehow made for that and I am proud of the things I am able to finish (even in the non professional way).
20210522_162853.jpg
20210522_170256.jpg
THE SPRING WAS FASTENED AFTER TAKING THE PHOTO
1916 Touring


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 2951
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: Van
Location: S.E. Michigan
MTFCA Number: 24868

Re: Update: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun May 23, 2021 8:00 am

joe.wal wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 7:49 am
Thank you all for the new posts and hints.


With all said let me point out that I am not the professional mechanic and I envy all the fellows around here who have all kind of equipment, take their T apart and together every second day and do know all the details of 'how to' as well as do's and don'ts. For me it is always a challenge to find out what is not working and how to cure it - so please do not be to hard in condemning my tinkering on my T - I do believe that this car is somehow made for that and I am proud of the things I am able to finish (even in the non professional way).

20210522_162853.jpg

20210522_170256.jpg

THE SPRING WAS FASTENED AFTER TAKING THE PHOTO
There are very few "professionals" here. It's just that some of us have been doing this longer than others. But, we all still have much to learn. So long as you're still learning, you're right in there with everyone else! Keep up the good work.

User avatar

TWrenn
Posts: 3389
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:53 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Wrenn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13 Touring, '26 "Overlap" Fordor
Location: Ohio
MTFCA Number: 30701
MTFCI Number: 24033
Board Member Since: 2019

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by TWrenn » Sun May 23, 2021 9:13 am

As always I too will start by saying I'm no expert. And sometimes my eyes, as well as pictures, deceive me. But as I've looked twice at the inside of the drum, it sure also seems to me that the end of the bolts protruding through the nuts are not peened over, to prevent them from working loose. Correct me if I'm wrong please, Joerg. But they do work loose, which of course may allow this noise? You'll eventually figure it out. Good luck!

User avatar

George Mills
Posts: 543
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:32 pm
First Name: George
Last Name: Mills
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Roadster, 1919 Hack, 1925 Fordor
Location: Cherry Hill NJ/Anona Largo FL
MTFCA Number: 29497
MTFCI Number: 10032
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by George Mills » Sun May 23, 2021 12:43 pm

am not sure but think that I need to ask…is the height of the hub nut correct? Are the bolts longer than needed?

Chasing rear end sounds can spend a lifetime without ever finding them. However, I agree with others and would really question how ‘tight’ the wood felloes are against the steel rim. Just because there is a rivet in place, doesn’t mean it hasn’t lost its ‘cinch’ and the riveted end is still in place and tight. The wheels always have some side to side wave once used a bit, the rims maybe not so and then can cause a click from the shrink fit as they try to true themselves. (You don’t have to ask me how I know this….grin). Even then I for a while said ‘felloe is tight enough…I only drive slow’ before realizing how significant that skinny rivet really is! Don't make the same rationalization.

You have determined situations where the tik-tok-tok can be recreated as a dry test.

Have you tried swapping real wheels side for side and for the same situation to see if there is a difference?

Have you tried an axle shim? I know, guys hate them and recommend against their use…but you could cut one out of a beer can for the sake of a test…it moves the nuts/bolts just a smidgen further away from whatever is mounted to the axle backing plate. For the sake of a why not, why not try it if only to eliminate?

(Pictures are certainly deceiving, but I think those nuts might be thick nuts and even at that there is too much bolt showing even if proper nut thickness for me to be comfortable)

It might also be that your lined brakes 'kiss' a spot on the drum and sometimes it self-corrects with a tip-tok-tok and other times does not care. Have you tried one of your known tip-tok-tok experiments where the shoes themselves are removed and while at it also the cam lobe (they tend to wobble in place too?

From the above, something should point you in a more definitive position.

Good luck

User avatar

Topic author
joe.wal
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:33 pm
First Name: Joerg
Last Name: Walther
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: FarFarAway (Germany)
MTFCA Number: 31419
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by joe.wal » Tue May 25, 2021 5:25 am

@ Tim and George:
I know the nuts are not secured and I thought about 'flexing away' the part of the bolts standing over but I first wanted to find the annoying sound and there was absolultely no trace of any part scratching against another. The sound is definitely within the wheel as I can create it when leaning on the wheel having it off the car. Until now I could not find any spoke or the felloe being loose in any way - I could not move anything by manual force or with a rubber hammer.

It will take now some time to test the new lined brake and adjust the right side (with supposed worn linings) to operate together - then I also will see how the wheel is 'behaving'. Mid of June I will have some vacation with time to proceed so I hope to be able to give an update then.
1916 Touring


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by Allan » Tue May 25, 2021 7:49 pm

Joerg,

The linings you show have a better chance of scraping than most. The new one piece linings now have the outer edge of the flat which sits on the cam ground off at 45 degrees because that square end does impinge on the hub nuts if things are not absolutely bang on. You can make the same modification to yours if they do scrape.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

User avatar

Topic author
joe.wal
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:33 pm
First Name: Joerg
Last Name: Walther
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 Touring
Location: FarFarAway (Germany)
MTFCA Number: 31419
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: Finally got my rear wheel off to look what makes a noise there - but found none

Post by joe.wal » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:36 am

Brake and wheel reinstalled, brake on right and left side 'synchronized'.

Linings had to be grinded to lower width but that worked pretty fine.
Bolts have been grinded down and punched to secure.
Wheel is still making noise what should be mainly the felloe - due to the fact that I drive less than 200 miles a year I will leave it for now, and YES i know that is against all reasonable advice given.
As we say her abusing your language: No risk no fun ...

Thank you for all your contributions !
1916 Touring

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic