Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
geoffrey mark
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:08 pm
First Name: geoffrey
Last Name: mark
Location: northern ireland

Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by geoffrey mark » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:57 am

So was out driving my 23 tourer , was down at sea level and to get home I had a long uphill climb , car started off well got a good race at the hill but getting near the top the car was struggling , into low gear then higher reves to get over the top . Should I be screwing out the meddle in the carb to help me up the hill an then screw in a bit on the flat ? Thanks

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:16 am

Try it and see what happens. Fuel mixture may need adjustment for much higher elevations, but I doubt that a difference of a couple thousand feet or less matters. A Model T struggling on a hill can be from a fuel delivery problem, or it can just be a tired engine, or it can be an especially steep hill. I rode up a nearby steep hill in a friend's 1926 touring and he had to low-pedal it near the top. My 1915 with a fresh engine went all the way up the same hill in high gear.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:27 am

Hmmm? With 20 horsepower you wouldn't think a Model T would have trouble climbing a long steep hill :D Mine sputtered once on a long steep hill, I had half a tank of gas and wonder whether it had something to do with lower fuel pressure due to the carb being higher relative to the fuel tank under the driver's seat... I haven't figured it out yet but that's part of the fun.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor

User avatar

Craig Leach
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:22 am
First Name: craig
Last Name: leach
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 Firetruck/1922 Speedster
Location: Laveen Az
MTFCA Number: 26647

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Craig Leach » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:18 am

I tend to drive other T poeple nuts when I'm driving. I constantly make adjustments driving down the road. I think timing & fuel mixture are critical to optimum performance especially if you only have 20 HP. (see forum Aug. 30 2014 ) shows throttle & timing. We get spoiled with our modern cars that make all these changes for us. If going up a long steep hill you will need more fuel & less timing at the lower RPMs to produce as much torque as you can. This is assuming you have enough fuel in the tank.


Norman Kling
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:34 am

These things affect the ability to climb hills. Compression and stroke of engine. Carburetor and timing adjustments. Sometimes the parts are just not compatible with each other. Example I had a high volume intake manifold on a stock engine with stock NH carburetor. It ran great on level ground, but slowed down on hills. Then I put a stock intake manifold on the car. That was the only change I made, and it now climbs the hills just like my other T. I came to the conclusion, that the high volume didn't work with the throttle open, because it is just like trying to blow out a match with the lips wide open. You get more air out, but it does not move with as much force as with the lips pursed.
Other things make a difference, such as the weight of the car. A sedan is heavier than a touring or roadster. The number of passengers or other weight you carry in the car will also slow you down. So You can't really compare two T's performance unless they are exactly the same and the loads are the same.
Norm


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:54 pm

A skinny intake manifold can improve low end torque. An ideal manifold would change shape as engine speed and throttle settings vary. That's hardly practical, though we're moving in that direction.

User avatar

Quickm007
Posts: 1198
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:58 am
First Name: Mario
Last Name: Brossard
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring and 1914 speedster
Location: Quebec City Canada
MTFCA Number: 30981
MTFCI Number: 30981
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Quickm007 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:18 pm

Thank you Norman, you put a finger on something I experienced as well.
Super Mario Bross ;)

1911 Touring
1914 Speedster


Rich Bingham
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 runabout
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Rich Bingham » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:24 pm

Geoffrey, maybe this is helpful: setting the mixture needle at 1-1/2 to 2 turns open initially, I find the "sweet spot" with the engine thoroughly warmed up by enriching the mixture until she "stumbles" a bit, then leaning up the mix until power diminishes, then back that off slightly. On the level with a light load, you can run mighty lean for economy. Add load and a head-wind and I find it necessary to enrich the mixture - not much, 1/8 turn or less. A steep hill certainly represents an added load !

As others have said, a full tank and retarding the spark can often make the difference between getting over in high and having to drop into low. Some hills may defy a Stock Model T in high gear, and it's also fun to recall that "in the day" T owners would compare notes on how to negotiate certain hills without having to shift down (or back over them) just as we're doing now. Good luck, and have fun !
"Get a horse !"


Bruce Compton
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Bruce
Last Name: Compton
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1921 Coupe, 1925 Coupe
Location: Kemptville

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Bruce Compton » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:00 pm

I would be more concerned with timing rather than carb adjustment. When the RPMs drop and you don't back off the spark advance you have an engine working it's hardest while the advanced spark is attempting to make it fire backwards. As for the carb mix, the original Holleys and Kingstons are probably out of proper adjustment maybe 75% of the time as load and speed change constantly unless you're on a dead flat road holding a fixed speed and have played with the mix till you find the sweet spot. Proof of the improper mix that results from not getting the adjustment right in combination with the ultra-crude mix available due to the design of the original carburetors is the statement in the owner's manual advising one to remove the head at regular intervals to scrape off the excess carbon. No wonder that aftermarket carbs like the Wheeler-Schebler, Rayfield, Stromberg and U&J were so popular as these carbs were much better designed and took care of the mix requirements automatically.


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Allan » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:24 pm

I have 6 T's running standard carburetors. Once the mixture is set, I firm up the jam nut on the top of the carb, and have never had to fiddle with it again. If backing off the timing is not enough to clear a hill, It means bottom gear is needed. Such is the beast.

Allan from down under.


Bruce Compton
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Bruce
Last Name: Compton
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1921 Coupe, 1925 Coupe
Location: Kemptville

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Bruce Compton » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:13 am

Allan: Just because you've found a compromise setting on your original carburetors doesn't mean they are running efficiently. With your "set it and lock it" approach, I'll guarantee you that every one is running too rich at regular driving speed and too lean at a slow idle. These carbs are basically a wick in a puddle of gas and have no way of compensating for constantly changing fuel requirements from idling to accelerating to cruising and everything in between. Yes, they all allow the engine to run, but none of them allow it to run the way it could (should) with a better designed carburetor. Try a Stromberg OF or RF and you'll feel the difference in performance and as well, not have to clean the plugs or de-carbon the combustion chambers ever again while enjoying a decrease in fuel consumption.


Kerry
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 touring, 1916 pick-up, 1924 coupe, 1926 touring, 1927 touring
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Kerry » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:51 am

It must be a down under thing for a T to run sweet with out farting with the mixture, like Allan, 5 x T's NH's set and forget, plugs clean and no carbon issues.


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Allan » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:24 am

Frank, it may have something to do with the fuel we have. With fewer players in the market, most likely drawing supplies from the same source, we don't seem to have the same problems reported on the forum.
Bruce, I do appreciate the difference the OF makes on my 25 wide body roadster, but it also has an early intake manifold, a Prus head, a 280 cam and dual exhaust manifold, all driving through a 3.25:1 rear axle, so the difference in performance cannot be tied to just one improvement. It too, is set and forget.

Allan from down under.


Bruce Compton
Posts: 576
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am
First Name: Bruce
Last Name: Compton
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1921 Coupe, 1925 Coupe
Location: Kemptville

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Bruce Compton » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:38 am

Sorry Allan, yes the Stromberg is a "set and forget" carb but none of the original Ford carbs are. If they were, Henry would have saved the extra 5 cents per carb and eliminated the adjuster. You have found a compromise setting that allows the engine to run maybe OK, but believe me, it's not running the way it could.

User avatar

RustyFords
Posts: 1554
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:16 am
First Name: Don
Last Name: Allen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
Location: Houston, TX
MTFCA Number: 50001

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by RustyFords » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:18 pm

I haven't touched the fuel mixture settings on my NH carb in a couple years.

When I first put the car on the road, I was fiddling with the adjustment constantly and was fouling plugs all the time. Now it's set at roughly 1.5 turns out and it runs great all the time and keeps the plugs happy.

Of course, my area is table-top flat....so that may make a difference.
1924 Touring


Norman Kling
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:42 pm

Don't worry about carbon in the head and pistons. It can be a problem with spark plugs if it fouls them. But carbon in cylinders actually slightly raises the compression. of course just a fraction, not really measurable with a compression gauge. A sign of carbon in cylinders is when the engine is hot you could have a hot spot which would cause a Ping. A ping is very unusual with a low compression engine and our higher octane gas. Only time a T might ping would be if it were severely overheated.
Norm


Topic author
geoffrey mark
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:08 pm
First Name: geoffrey
Last Name: mark
Location: northern ireland

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by geoffrey mark » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:33 pm

Thanks for the reply a , food for thought , I know I had plenty of fuel in the tank , so will give it another run at the weekend and try adjusting the mixture and advance/retard and let yous know how I get on !


Loftfield
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:26 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Loftfield
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 Touring, 1912 Express Pick-up
Location: Brevard, NC, USA
MTFCA Number: 49876
MTFCI Number: 24725

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Loftfield » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:07 am

Unlike a lot of folks down under and in other warm climates, I find it necessary to open (enrich) the carb needle as the temperature drops in order to get the T started (I use only the Armstrong starters on my brass T's). Ability to adjust that needle valve seems critical. Once started and warmed a bit, I then search out the "sweet spot", but then enrich ever so slightly. Other threads from knowledgeable people have suggested that a slight enrichment makes the engine run cooler, no radiator overheating, boiling, etc. It has been my experience that running just a tad rich does, indeed, result in a much lower red line showing on the motometer.

While driving other brass cars it became more than obvious that adjusting the spark was critical, something that seems to be anathema to most T drivers other than when starting. While the T does not seem to need as much spark timing fiddling as some other cars, like early Buicks, learning to slip that lever up just a bit does definitely produce a smoother running engine at low speed, especially under load. I suspect that many members of the two-piece crankshaft club wouldn't be members had they retarded the spark when the engine was lugging, lugging being defined as the engine won't advance speed when the throttle is pulled down. I have tried playing with the spark advance chart that is commonly seen, but have found better results from listening to the engine as it tells me what it needs. Mr. Ford put all those levers, knobs, and other adjusters on his cars for real reasons. As L. P. Hartley wrote, the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:17 am

Many USA fuel blends used to be seasonally adjusted. Volatility was lowered in Spring and raised in Fall. This adjustment promoted easier starting and better cold running in Winter and avoided problems with percolation and vapor lock in Summer with carbureted cars with fuel pumps mounted on the engine. Such adjustments are not of much benefit to modern, fuel injected, computer managed engines and may conflict with emissions mandates in some jurisdictions. Fuel blends in different localities today may vary to accomodate various regulatory requirements without regard to seasons. Altitude and ambient temperatures, along with fuel blends, affect carburetor settings and cold start procedures on non-computerized cars, just as they always have.

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:51 am

I have tried playing with the spark advance chart that is commonly seen...

I believe the chart applies to driving on BAT. On MAG you don't have all those fine adjustments.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:59 am

The charts would be a guideline at best, and would require that the timer and throttle linkages be in good condition and correctly adjusted.


Norman Kling
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Driving/ carb adjusting on hills

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:16 am

Here are a couple other things to consider.
I have 2 26 T's with cowl gas tanks. Most other T's have a tank under the front seat and a few even have the tank under the back seat! The location of the tank has a lot to do with the uphill driving. I have two roads which lead to my home. One is negotiable in Ruckstell. The other one I need both Ruckstell and Ford Low together to climb. I usually use the less steep route, because I don't want to starve the front of the engine for oil.
I can climb these hills with only a gallon of gas in the tank.
I also have a 22 T which I wouldn't even attempt to climb the steeper grade because of the location of the tank would be lower than the carburetor. It climbs the other hill fine in Ruckstell just like the other T's, however, if the tank is less than half full it will run out of gas. Fortunately, if I can get it turned around, there is a gas station at the foot of the hill.
Now with this same T, I had a problem with a rebuilt carburetor a number of years ago and it would sputter on the slightest pull. I found out that the rebuilder had used a grose jet in the carburetor. That is a ball valve in the fuel intake float valve. I replaced it with a conventional needle and seat, and have had no more problems.
Anyway, these are some other things to think about. Another thing would be the gearing of the rear axle ring and pinion. If this has been a problem since you had the T and not a new thing, you might want to check the gear ratio. Some people use a higher gear ratio to get a bit more speed and lower engine revs on level ground, however, this will sacrifice low end torque for hill climbing.
Norm

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic