copper head gasket electrolysis?

[flatbroke3]

I have a aluminum head with the usual copper gasket and have water in cylinder two and three. after taking off the head to figure it all out, I found that the water passage in the gasket, between two and three is all gone, corroded from electrolysis? what type of gaskets are recommended for these heads. copper, steel,composite? which one is the preferred type of gasket? don't want to do this again.
harold musolf

[John kuehn]

Copper is usually the preferred for Model T’s. Probably the gasket wasnt tightened down good enough to begin with or the surfaces weren’t cleaned when installed. Anything that will cause a small leak usually a deterioration will occur over a long period of time.

Others will have their own idea for sure which is best for aluminum heads nowadays but a copper head gasket will last for years and if you carefully remove the head they can be used again but for some that’s a big no-no! In the T era people would use them again if need be with no problem if that’s all they had but that was when they were using the standard head.

[speedytinc]

Use an anode in your radiator to keep down that destruction.

[Ruxstel24]

That looks more like just a gasket blow out to me...
As I understand, electrolysis occurs when an electric charge is created from a water pump or something rotating in the cooling system.

I would make sure that the head surface is flat as well as the block surface. Be sure to tap and clean out the head bolt holes and torque to 50ftlbs, I actually went to 55 on mine.
Run it at idle till it’s hot, let it cool and retorque.
Drive it and check it again. I sprayed the gasket with copper gasket sealer also.
I have an aluminum head and run a copper gasket with no problem.

[TRDxB2]

What were/are you using as a coolant. Need to be specific since additives vary.

[DanTreace]

Typical blown gasket, right at the typical spot between the cylinders 2 and 3.

There is little wall thickness, and the narrow gasket will give at that point. Best seal is made by following Ford head bolt tightening sequence. Do the center bolt first, then alternate up and down the middle to squish the copper clad gasket in the middle of the head, then move out until the ends are done. That provides the best seal.

Copper clad gasket using copper coat sealer sprayed on each side is recommended by hi-compression head makers.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1441868846

Details on this earlier post above.

[Hudson29]

My experience with anodes has not been positive. When I got my T it already had a Z-head. I used water soluble oil for protection along with the anode. After a few years, the residue from the dissolving anodes left a grey pasty coating in the radiator & other cooling passages.

Later a cracked block was replaced by another block along with a complete overhaul of the motor & trans. With a complete cleaning of everything I went to pre-mix anti-freeze. Even though it never got cold in SoCal, the anti-freeze protected everything from corrosion with no issues with cooling. Even on the hottest days this T stayed cool even climbing hills behind other Ts with tired engines.

[Erik Barrett]

I would be willing to bet that everyone on this forum owns or has owned a vehicle with a cast iron block and aluminum cylinder head or heads having provided great service for decades and untold miles without holes developing in the cooling system. All this without anodes and other such nonsense. Why? Because they are using proper coolant with antifreeze and anti corrosion properties. It’s really that simple.

[DanTreace]

Or perhaps the OP has issue with the un described high compression head, at least one style has excess casting hole in the head to block interface that caused similar gasket troubles.

Read more here:


http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1401166099

[flatbroke3]

well, thanks for all of the reply's so far. just got the head back and it was out .009 I do not think this head has ever been off of the block. I got the car last Christmas, and tracing owner history back, no one can remember ever looking at the oil or leaking head. Found a medium chocolate brown oil mixture in the crankcase when I drained the oil. I do not know the manufacture of the head but it looks just like a stock T head. says made in u.s.a. only. I have on order a zinc kit from the vendors, so that will help some, but as to my real question, has anybody ever felt they had a corrosion problem with a copper head gasket and all of the dissimilar metals ( i am a marine mechanic and that is a very common problem) or is this just a typical head gasket blow out? oh no water pump just a stock motor(don't need no water pump) that's what Henry said. coolant is stock 50/50 antifreeze.
Harold

[TRDxB2]

Instructions that come with the Z head

[SurfCityGene]

We wouldn't think of running plain water or oil in our modern cars coolant systems. I don't understand why some guys wouldn't want the best coolant in their T's. A lot of research and testing has gone onto modern coolants to make them much better than years ago. I know it's not nice when you spill it on the brass and the price has increased a lot but no reason not to use it.

The best recommended coolant for our T's and old cars is the Conventional Green mixed with water but Not Distilled water.
I've been running an alum head since about the time they first came out and have not had any issues without an anode.

If there is a real issue with electrolysis I'd be checking my electrical wiring circuits for stray voltage.

[Scott_Conger]

Gene

BINGO! on the electrical system. I had an original aluminum motometer which corroded very quickly and one day I really went looking and I found about 10mV in the coolant when tested with my meter. I found the oil-soaked wiring harness pinched hard between the starter and frame and once replaced, the reading in the coolant was "0". Corrosion on the aluminum motometer ceased that day. Oh, and the battery stopped draining over a several week period and finally kept a constant charge over weeks and months of non-use.

Battery voltage was definitely the culprit.

[Norman Kling]

I differ with Gene on one thing. Depends on your source of water. With soft water, you don't need distilled or purified water, however, I am on a well and the water is full of lime and calcium. It will form stagmites in the cooling system. It even clogs up a drip irrigation system, so in my case I use purified water with 50% green anti-freeze.
Norm

[JTT3]

Harold by any chance do you have an old Reeder low head that had an oblong hole between 2&3 cylinders?

[TXGOAT2]

That looks like a blown gasket to me. As the gasket begins to leak, combustion gases are forced into the water jacket causing rapid corrosion. The erosion of the gasket material was probably caused by a combination of accellerated chemical corrosion and the force of the hot, high pressure gases eroding the copper and sandwich material. A slight head gasket leak will often cause the coolant to turn brown or reddish brown, even when the cylinder can still fire. Most likely, dirt, old gasket residue, or some flaw in the gasket surfaces caused the leak to begin. It may have leaked a little for quite some time before it got really bad. Some leaks will only open when the engine is at running temperature, and leaked coolant goes out the tailpipe. Others will seep when the engine is sitting cold, and the engine will miss on start up, then smooth out as it warms up. Electrolysis would affect all gasket surfaces exposed to coolant, not just a concentrated area.

[Allan]

A Reeder head can be identified by looking on the inside of the head on the top side of the water outlet. Reeder will be cast into it. A mate and I have both had problems with these. They come with a large cast hole between 2 and 3, which does not have a corresponding hole in the block. We both welded up that void and have had no problems since. No more warping and blown gaskets.

Allan from down under.

[Caswell]

That looks more like just a gasket blow out to me...
As I understand, electrolysis occurs when an electric charge is created from a water pump or something rotating in the cooling system.

I would make sure that the head surface is flat as well as the block surface. Be sure to tap and clean out the head bolt holes and torque to 50ftlbs, I actually went to 55 on mine.
Run it at idle till it’s hot, let it cool and retorque.
Drive it and check it again. I sprayed the gasket with copper gasket sealer also.
I have an aluminum head and run a copper gasket with no problem.

Electrolytic Corrosion (Electrolysis) occurs when dissimilar metals are in contact in the presence of
an electrolyte, such as water (moisture) containing very small amounts of acid. The dissimilar metals set
up a galvanic action which results in the deterioration of one of them.

THE GALVANIC TABLE
1. Aluminum
2. Zinc
3. Steel
4. Iron
Anodic
or
Active (+)
5. Nickel
6. Stainless Steel Series 400
7. Tin
8. Lead
9. Brass
10. Copper
11. Bronze
12. Stainless Steel Series 300
Cathodic
or
Passive (-)

When any two metals in the “Galvanic Table” above are in contact, with an electrolytic present, the
one with the lower number is corroded. The galvanic action increases as the metals are farther apart in the
Galvanic Series. It is not always true that there is greater corrosion the further down the scale one goes. In
certain cases one metal immediately following another may be very corrosive.
One of the most important facts that one should know about a metal or an alloy is its reaction with
other metals or alloys with which it may be in contact. This data is given in the Galvanic Table. Here the
metals are listed in a sequence in which each metal is corroded by all that follow it. In other words, when
two different metals are in contact with each other in the presence of moisture, there will be a flow of
current from one metal (the “anode”) to the other metal (the “cathode”), and one will be eaten away, or
disintegrated, while the other (the “cathode”) will remain intact.

Based on this information the copper head gasket should be O.K.


Use a pre-mix antifreeze (some are made for aluminum head on iron block), use Permatex copper gasket spray when installing head gasket (creates a film and seals)If that fails (should not) use a silicon gasket.

[TXGOAT2]

Pure water is a non-conductor. Pure water is not found in automotive cooling systems. Good modern anti-freeze products are formulated to guard against scaling, corrosion, cavitation, hydrophobia, boiling, and other problems that can affect automotive cooling systems, both old and new, and they are quite effective. Modern cooling systems often have cast iron, steel, copper, brass, plastic, and aluminum parts. They depend on the coolant formulation to allow these diverse materials to survive under operating conditions. Modern "green" antifreeze does a great job of protecting cast iron and copper systems from corrosion, and they offer other advantages as well which are of particualr benefit to thermosyphon systems operating at atmospheric pressure and vented to the atmosphere. Model T cooling systems run at high temperatures and they are subject to oxygen entrainment in the coolant, since they are vented to the atmosphere. They allow water vapor to escape, which concentrates impurities in the water. Steam bubbles can form, causing local hot spots in the system, and boilover is not uncommon. Some combustion gas seepage into the coolant is probably pretty common in Model Ts. There is no good reason not to run a modern coolant solution in a Model T. Doing so will offset many of the disadvantages that go with the Model T cooling system. Just make sure your radiator cap doesn't leak, and be sure the coolant overflow pipe is clear.

[Hudson29]

Once I went to the pre-mix anti-freeze the rust and corrosion stopped and the coolant always looks new. I also found that it is useless to fill the radiator to the level I thought appropriate. The system just vented any it considered extra overboard on the next drive. Now I very rarely bother to check the level as it never changes.

Seeing the system is not a closed one I wonder if the coolant should be changed periodically. Are there parts that exhaust themselves & have a service life? I know the manufacturer says so but they have a vested interest in selling more coolant . . .

[TXGOAT2]

Assuming your system is clean and tight, I would change the coolant every two or three of years, or any time it showed significant discoloration. Antifreezes have anti-acid properties, among several other important properties besides preven ting freezing, and these properties can be lost over time, much as engine oil additives become depleted in service. If significant discoloration occurs over a short time span, it could be due to a slight head gasket leak. Some discoloration is normal, but the coolant should not begin to look like red primer. It should not look fizzy, like carbonated water. As far as I know, the basic anti-freeze property of antifreeze does not decay, so long as it is not excessively diluted. But the additives will eventually become depleted, and the antifreeze will not provide full protection from scaling, corrosion, boilover, foaming, and other hazards that it does when it's in good condition. A dirty system or one with even very slight combustion gas leaks will cause the antifreeze solution to deteriorate much faster than it otherwise would. A Model T, with its atmospheric vented system, is probably a little more demanding on antifreeze than a sealed system due to oxygen getting in the coolant.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

If electrolysis why just there?

[DanTreace]

Agree. Unusual to blame electrolysis for gasket blow.

Such similar reported gasket blows due to the ‘Reeder’ style alum head to me is identical to this issue.

Note the comparison of the long sunken oval portion of where the gasket failed. The Reeder head has a long oval hole, no other cylinder head put on the Ford has this feature. The engine blocks do not have matching feature.

This sets up a gasket for early failure, seems to me the issue is the head design.


Reeder Head

[Allan]

Dan, that's exactly what we found. I believe the void in the head is responsible for the gasket blow, perhaps doe to lack of clamping at that area. I had the void welded up. My mate made a plate and welded that onto the hole. Once the heads were re-surfaced, we had no further problems.

The attraction of the Reeder head is it's imade to resemble the low heads on earlier cars. Mine was on my 1915 speedster.

Allan from down under.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

My experience with anodes has not been positive.

Maybe not intended, but that's some funny stuff!

[flatbroke3]

o.k. thanks for all of the reply's. I have found that the head is not a reeder (at least it does not say reeder inside ) but does have the same type of hole in it. I will proceed with having it welded up and go from there.thank you again for all of the help getting to the bottom of all this.
Harold III