MTFCA Forum

FOR SALE BY THE MTFCA!
1922 Model T Coupe. ‘25 Engine. Solid body with surface rust. Complete car/auxiliary rear brakes. No title – sells with bill of sale. No trades.
Hopefully running by Homecoming. $2,500 reserve.

1924 Fordson Tractor. Has non-original carb set-up. Was last started 4 years ago. $800 reserve. No trades.

Buyers must arrange transportation and remove from MTFCA property within 30 days of purchase. Bids must be submitted by email (admin@mtfca.com) or in writing to MTFCA, PO Box 996/310 N. 8th Street, Richmond, IN 47374 no later than 5:00 p.m. (EST) June 18. No phone calls will be accepted. Bid must include: Name, address, phone number, and email (if bidder has one) to be considered. Illegible bids will not be considered. Highest bidders will be announced at Homecoming and will be notified in writing shortly thereafter.

I have a couple of questions: Why is the museum selling these items? Were these items donated to the museum for permanent display or for raising money?

I sincerely hope these items were donated to the museum, or were purchased by the museum, expressly for raising funds.

We have had several guys donate cars that were sold by the museum they were donated to at a later date. The above question is valid due to this.

To retain control of a piece of property, you must retain legal ownership. A donation is not a loan.

The only big items ever sold by the museum were a TT truck that was donated and not in very good condition and the very large trailer it came in. We get offers of vehicles several times a year and so far have not turned anyone down. Anyone that inquires about donating a vehicle must sign a statement states the donated item may be sold if not needed.
We have no more room to display cars and are trying to upgrade our collection. Several years ago we received a very nice example of what we call a survivor car it is completely original. That is why we decided to try to sell the 22. We have two Fordson tractors on display now. That is why we decided to sell the one that is advertised. All museums eventually reach display capacity, and if they don’t continually try to upgrade the cars they have the museum becomes stagnant.

I was involved in a Museum that was an annex to 2 other museums on the same Campus, it was organized the local antique tractor club. As soon as it was announced that we were going to open we were the recipients of contents from everybody's garage, cellar & attic. Volunteer's at the museum received anything brought in, it was an uncontrolled circus. It is an Agricultural Museum, soon non club members were wanting to donate Grandpa's tractor for perpetual display. We set this Museum with the intent to be able to have the club members display their tractors on a rotational basis. We have 2 special tractors that were owned by long time members donated by family. I explained to those non member people wanting to donate their family's tractor that we would keep it for a period of time & then it would become surplus & offered to help with expenses at the Museum. After an explanation to the potential donors most seemed to understand. I had the most problems with Club members who refused to agree, funny same members that complained are the same ones they never reach in their wallet to help. George

This is a reality for all museums. Many a lot worse than others. Even the Smithsonian has been known to sell excess items. I haven't been close with the model T museum myself, distance and personal finances make that difficult for me. But I have had some dealings with them, and believe them to be better than most.
It takes a lot of money to keep and care for all the things people would donate. Much of that money is better spent on maintaining the quality of displays and keeping the main buildings in proper and secure condition.
Unless a museum has really deep pockets from somewhere, keeping everything would very quickly turn into a cluttered mess that nobody could walk around and see.
When we donate something to a museum, we naturally hope and envision our cherished treasure on center display forever. But that just isn't realistic. We need to accept that when we donate something, it will be seen and enjoyed at least some while there. But that the big reason to donate is that we help a much needed and grossly-underfunded-by-society institution to thrive a bit longer. Whether they thrive a bit more because our donation is on display? Or they sell it and pay the electric bill or fix the parking lot? We done good!

What he said is true... ANY museum has a maximum amount of floor and storage space... once that's been reached, it's a sorting game as to what to keep and what to get rid of....

I could talk about "bad museum experiences", which is why I rather detest them in general... but the reality is, unless you have the vehicle on loan (Which I did, but they played me for their own grab... never mind) you sign the title to them and they can dispose of it wither for operating funds or to make room. I *have* donated cars to a museum for their use - one was sold at auction, 2 were sent to the crusher - but once it's theirs, all bets are off... If I had a way to get that couple to the west coast I would be on it like Japan Black on a T...

I feel the MTFCA museum is a lot more scrupulous than a certain other Vintage Transportation (formerly Ford) museum which shall remain nameless, so I tend to support them and their aims...

No accredited museum will promise to hold onto any donated item in perpetuity. In order to maintain accreditation, the proceeds of the sale of donated artifacts, should be directed to towards the purchase of additional artifiacts, or the restoration/preservation of existing artifacts. The proceeds should not be used for operational expenses of the museum.

I have great faith that the MTFCA Museum is operating fully within those boundries.

From the accrediting body, The American Alliance of Museums. https://www.aam-us.org/programs/ethics- ... r-museums/

Another Museum memory, even the Henry Ford has declared items surplus to help with the Bills, take the case some of the experimental X series prototypes of the MOM & Fordson farm tractors sold. Also some experimental engines (motors) that left the Henry Ford archives. General Motors has a collection of new products squired away in Detroit warehouses & feeling the pinch a few years ago sent them I believe to Barrett Jackson to help with the upkeep of the rest of the collection. I am talking 40-50 year old zero or near zero mileage vehicles. george

Once something is donated to a museum , that entity has every legal right to sell it or dispose of as it sees fit.

Any museum worth its salt does not take donations with stipulations.

I’m bidding on the 22

I understand and agree with your comments. I raise these questions regarding the "Wood Plan Program". If the museum will sell anything they own, it is very possible they will dispose of any plans we entrust them with. I believe it would be much better to find someone who will manage the plan program with dedication to the continuation of the program for US and without intent to profit.

Good Luck,
Terry

Museum items on display inevitably (the inevitable DOES often happen!) degrade. UV light, dust, hands, bad atmosphere, etc are among the many causes. For this reason, most museums have only a small fraction of their holdings on display at any one time, tending to rotate items from deep storage to display and back in order to reduce degradation as much as possible. As the collection grows it then becomes inevitable that either items must be disposed, OR the museum enters a capital drive to get funds to expand storage facilities. Storage facilities need only meet best-practice storage conditions, not the more expensive costs of areas used for display. Disposal of items, no matter how well-intentioned, does tend to reduce enthusiasm for future gifting to that institution. No museum can accept an item with promise of perpetual display (not good for the items as explained above), but it can accept items with the promise of perpetual care, not unlike cemeteries. All manner of gift conditions can be envisioned, including promise to return an item to the original owner or heirs if the institution absolutely MUST let that item go.

If the museum had a '22 in restored condition, and then received a '22 survivor, it is sad to sell off the restored car simply because a display comparing a restored car with a survivor would, itself, be a great display. Two Fordson tractors immediately suggests the ability to rotate from storage to display, a best-practice approach.

It seems it might be time for that capital fund-raising effort.

Not the Smithsonian by any means, but I did spend quite a few years as the #2 person at a national museum in another country, my credentials.

The museum currently uses all the space it owns for display purposes. It does not own any other storage facilities and certainly cannot afford to rent any storage facilities. I have used my barn to store MTFCA vehicles free of charge, but this area will not always be available. We hate to get rid of any vehicle that is given to us but if we want to improve the museum this needs to be done

I worked in the conservation of a major museum for twenty one years. Over the years the Museum did sell artifacts but generally these were pieces that were never officially accessioned into the collection and not numbered. When pieces are accepted, either purchased or donated, it is usually assumed that once numbered they stay in the collection but there is always the chance they will not be accessioned.

Well, this confirms my suspicions and beliefs. Over the years many non antique auto specific museums have been after me to donate one or more of my cars to their museum. Even going so far as to say “Please remember our museum in your Will with this roadster.” Curators come and go and I’ve never known one to abide by the above ‘rules’ of sale for the upkeep and maintenance of other artifacts. Three and a half months before I check out, I’ll find deserving teens to gift a car to.

George, you are GOOD.....how do you know when the clock will stop?

Dave

What are you going to do with all the stuff that gets donated? Not all is priceless. Auburn museum had a big yard sale 2 years ago. Lots of cool stuff that cluttered up the place. AACA has the book and advertising sale 2 years ago. The proceeds go back to museum funding. I dont see a problem with it unless you are a hoarder. They could put them both up on top the silo with the touring as you come into town. For all to see.

Its not like they are going to get trashed. Whoever gets this stuff will drive and enjoy the car. More people will get to see it that way than parked in a storage garage.

As a member of the Collections Committee at the Ford Piquette Avenue Museum, I can say with certainty, that we have never accepted an artifact based on its value or potential resale value. First and foremost, an artifact MUST fit within the scope and theme of the collection before it's acceptance is considered. I am certain that the MTFCA Richmond Museum abides by that same rule of conduct in all it's accessions. These 2 vehicles being no exception.

EVEN THE SMITHHSONIAN SELLS OFF THEIR EXCESS!
There is NO museum in the world that can keep everything that is donated. They have to make decisions, based on what is best for the museum.
If you want to give away a vehicle, and see that it is used. THEN FIND A LOCAL KID WHO IS INTERESTED IN IT, AND SELL IT TO THEM CHEAP. That is the best way to keep an old car on the road, and avoid having it sold by the museum you donate it to!
Just my opinion. Others may vary.

I bought a trashed coupe but one day it will run and shine with two happy faces. These two faces will grow old and have to sell the coupe one day because the car will outlive us. If we cannot locate a buyer, who is not a hotrodder, then we may donate to a museum. One day happy faces will see it in a museum until the museum closes or it decides to sell it off. Then happy faces will purchase said coupe and drive it around after a long checklist, one day. And so the cycle continues.

The only sad face is that members must post in the Classifieds - Vehicles section. I think we should follow our own rules to show others that we actually follow the rules.

When thinking about the future of my cars, I often think about the line in Ecclesiates about not knowing if the next person will be a wise man or a fool. The next owner of my car could cherish it or maybe hot rod it. He could completely disassemble it to restore and then lose interest. You can leave your car to someone where you hope it will be safe, but in the end it's out of our hands and, ultimately, unimportant (Ecclesiates calls concerns like this out as vanity).

jeffstag wrote: ↑

Wed May 26, 2021 9:50 am

When thinking about the future of my cars, I often think about the line in Ecclesiates about not knowing if the next person will be a wise man or a fool. The next owner of my car could cherish it or maybe hot rod it. He could completely disassemble it to restore and then lose interest. You can leave your car to someone where you hope it will be safe, but in the end it's out of our hands and, ultimately, unimportant (Ecclesiates calls concerns like this out as vanity).

This Ecclesiastes guy sure was wise!

I don’t think any museum would take my junk. Relax and enjoy your cars and life while u have it! no fossil fuel cars allowed on the road in a few years anyway. Drive um like you stole um.

Just a reminder to bid on these two great vehicles!

Bids must be submitted by email (admin@mtfca.com) or in writing to MTFCA, PO Box 996/310 N. 8th Street, Richmond, IN 47374 no later than 5:00 p.m. (EST) June 18. No phone calls will be accepted.

Bid must include:
• Name, address, phone number, and email (if bidder has one) to be considered. Illegible bids will not be considered.

High bidder will be announced at Homecoming and will be notified in writing shortly thereafter.

Re: "This Ecclesiastes guy sure was wise!" He certainly was. Otherwise, he never could have learned to spell his name, let alone remember it!

Just as a Reminder! Bids need to be turned in no later than June 18th by 5pm. Send bids to admin@mtfca.com!

I've never understood car museums...most of them are depressing. Cars need to be driven.

The Model T museum is telling a specific story about a specific car that changed the whole world. That's different. But even they can't (and shouldn't) keep a bunch of extra cars around. If you donate your common, mediocre car to them, and they sell it to raise funds, your donation wasn't wasted. It did some good. Be happy about that.

Almost all museums sell excess inventory. Unless one's item is simply incredible and amazingly significant, one can't simply donate an item with the expectation that it will still be there 250 years from now.

Here are extra photos of the 1922 Coupe as requested. You have 2 and a half hours left to place your bid! Place your bid today by sending an email to admin@mtfca.com!

Auction results?

Anyone know anything about the fordson, did it sell?

Both the Fordson Tractor and the '22 Coupe were sold. I don't have the amounts with me.
Keith

The successful bidder on the 1922 Coupe is Richard Fontaine of Attica, Indiana! Successful bidder on the 1924 Fordson is Chris Flick of Okeana, Ohio!

So what were the auction results?
How much did they sell for?
Thanks!

Oily.... What is your concern for the sale and money spent .....???.... Those cars were donated to the museum, and it's up to the museum if they want to keep them or sell them to support the museum. ..... And if you sold any of your cars how much money did you get and what was spent ??..... I'm not being snotty but it's strictly museum procedures.

Yup - generally museums can, and do as they please…. Hence why I’ll be leaving nothing to a museum when I pass. I know as a family member of a city museum donor I can’t even get to view the family heirlooms they donated.

Supposedly being a 501(c)3 does NOT make it a private organization. it certainly should be no secret as to what goes on there financially. I’ve asked for years now what happened to a large donation I helped a small bit with ( only because they asked for donations of the same stuff later) and nothing but crickets.

I am a member of MTFCA and have been for many years. I have visited the museum, donated and participated in club events. As a member I am entitled to know what the high bids were on both the tractor and coupe. No need to hide anything, and full disclosure is the way to insure integrity.
I concur with Tim and want to know the sale prices of the two pieces.
Jonathan R Crane

I view museums that are supported by members, much the same way I view churches. They should be totally transparent with their finances and publish them. No secrets when it comes to money.

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I think that all those complaining about how our museum is being run should take over the administration of it themselves. How well do you think it would it be managed then?
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Members have a right and obligation to know what their organization is doing and have discussions on the pros and cons of it. I don't think the names of buyers should have been disclosed on the forum most auctions don't. But the prices items sold for should be just like most all auction houses do. I am curious from what are Ts selling for prospective. Every MTFCA member has a stake in the Museum and when donated items are sold off it can be personal to members and the donors family. But museum management must make the hard decisions and thin the heard from time to time. separating the wheat from the chaff. there is only so much display and storage space.
I think the sale was exciting with the announcement made at Home coming. Good luck to the new owners. hope they are able to get their new toys on the road and in the field sooner rather than later.

Jeez, relax folks. Has the museum actually taken a specific position on this? Or maybe they just haven’t responded to this forum post since yesterday? Has anyone who is concerned about it picked up the phone to call the museum?

A 501(c)3 only has to make its Tax Filings public or divulged to the membership.

Budgets, financial or bank information or independent transactions are not required to be disclosed by law, though some organizations do chose to divulge some or all of the above. This is why you have a Board of Directors and you are not asked to vote on whether or not to pay the plumber overtime when the toilet overflowed Sunday night.

A donation to a Museum is a donation. It's no longer yours. Money, goods, time, doesn't matter. If someone is unhappy with how the Board of Directors, Trustees, or Museum Honchos spend the money within or for the organization, that can be remedied annually.

Vote.

Obviously, no good deed goes unpunished.

I think we are left with the fact that MTFCA got $ 800 for the Fordson and $ 2500 for the 1922 T Cp. Those were the bid reserve $$ numbers, any thing more is just extra money to the club, anything less, well that would be a problem that should be explained to the MTFCA members.

Moxie, that may be how YOU feel, but it isn't the way auctions are run.
I have never seen a public auction where the results were secret.
Anyone who is advertising an auction in Hemmings, Old Cars Weekly, or anywhere else, you can call them and get the results They don't release the buyer's name (Why was that done in THIS case?)
But they give the final prices paid.

It was a club auction, not a public auction so disclosure of price is optional. We intrust them as elected members to do the best "On our behalf".

Leave it alone,

Hank

Same reason you never see copies of the minutes from the board meetings.

Dan B wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:29 pm

Jeez, relax folks. Has the museum actually taken a specific position on this? Or maybe they just haven’t responded to this forum post since yesterday? Has anyone who is concerned about it picked up the phone to call the museum?

Exactly.

"I'd like to join a club and beat you over the head with it" - Groucho Marx

Retro:
I have corresponded with the MTFCA Treasurer regarding the disclosure of the sales price. Matter was considered for disclosure yesterday, then withdrawn and will be on the agenda for the Board Meeting on July 9 in Spokane. I cannot attend. I have no interest in these matters other than honesty and appearance of fairness. Standby for the board's decision.
Jon .

I'm not real clear on what the problem is here.

The MTFCA auctioned a couple items, and gave everyone an opportunity to bid.

Soooo . . . what?

MTFCA is pleased to announced that a total of $5,475 was raised when the Model T Museum recently sold excess inventory. A 1922 ‘survivor’ Coupe was purchased by Richard Fontaine for $4,500. The Fordson tractor was purchased by Chris Flick with a winning bid of $975. Thanks to everyone who bid on these cars and to Richard and Chris for their support of the Museum and our mission!

-NB

Great deal on the coupe, and screaming deal on the tractor! Couple of folk are going to be pretty happy with their new projects, I betcha! And the club did good, too - coming off Covid, the proceeds will be a shot in the arm.

Congratulations to everyone involved!

Thank you for providing the informaiton. Great to see the club did well in the auction.
Great to see that the Board took appropriate precautions and then answered the questions.
Jon Crane

And you wonder why I am a life member…, dah!

Humbled Hank

NB1926 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:14 am

MTFCA is pleased to announced that a total of $5,475 was raised when the Model T Museum recently sold excess inventory. A 1922 ‘survivor’ Coupe was purchased by Richard Fontaine for $4,500. The Fordson tractor was purchased by Chris Flick with a winning bid of $975. Thanks to everyone who bid on these cars and to Richard and Chris for their support of the Museum and our mission!

-NB

Nice

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:18 pm

A 501(c)3 only has to make its Tax Filings public or divulged to the membership.

Budgets, financial or bank information or independent transactions are not required to be disclosed by law, though some organizations do chose to divulge some or all of the above. This is why you have a Board of Directors and you are not asked to vote on whether or not to pay the plumber overtime when the toilet overflowed Sunday night.

A donation to a Museum is a donation. It's no longer yours. Money, goods, time, doesn't matter. If someone is unhappy with how the Board of Directors, Trustees, or Museum Honchos spend the money within or for the organization, that can be remedied annually.

Vote.

Obviously, no good deed goes unpunished.

nice

These sort of little augments are why I no don't belong to clubs any more. I stopped attending the local club when they started obsessing about by-laws. I don't actually miss it one bit.

If someone HAS to know the finances of a 501c3, simply request a copy of their 990 form, which they are required to supply to anyone who requests it. If you don't want to ask, I believe it's also available from the IRS website. The 990 is filled out annually by 501c3's and outlines their finances from the past year.

As to this auction, of course we're curious as to the sale prices, which have now been reported by MTFCA, but wow, give them a minute to report it before we storm the museum. Folks today seem to need instant data and get in a twist when it's not immediately announced to us. MTFCA ain't Google!

Good news: another T on the road, and another tractor in the fields, (maybe).

Have fun guys & gals!!!