Feeling stupid - hard starting

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Steve Jelf
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Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:46 am

After installing new valves, seats, and rings in my 1915, Mike cautioned me that those might not solve my hard start/no start problem. He was right, of course. The engine is back in the car. I put in oil, gas, and coolant, and attempted a start. No go. I get an occasional little chuff, but otherwise the thing remains dead no matter how many times I pull the crank.

Compression: I haven't measured it, but considering the work that was done to the engine, and the stiffness when I pull the crank, I assume it's better than average.

Spark: I laid the plugs out on top of the engine and pulled through a couple of complete rotations. All four fired in proper 1, 2, 4, 3 order, so apparently they're getting sufficient juice from the coils and the wiring is right. I tested all four plugs under compression and got a good, blue spark on every one. I pulled the engine to 15º past TDC on #1 and set the timer (New Day).

Fuel: Today I took the NH carb off the car. I removed the plugs from the passages, stuck in little wires to dislodge any possible clogs, and shot air through all the openings. The spray needle looks good. The only possible problem I saw in the carburetor was that the float was set a little over ¼". I reset it as close to
15/64" as I could manage, reassembled the carb, and put it back on the car.

I opened the needle 1
1/8 turns, choked three times, flipped on the switch, and started pulling. Again, lots of pulls, one little chuff, lots more pulls, and the thing remains dead, dead, dead. Obviously there's something I'm missing, probably something very simple, but I am at the end of my limited wits.
The inevitable often happens.
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Kerry
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Kerry » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am

Try 1-1/2 turns on the needle, that's the usual starting spot, may even need a little more, every T seem do differ a little.


Alan Long
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Alan Long » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:29 am

Hi Steve and greetings from Darwin in the Northern Territory, Australia.
Your no fool and maybe it’s something as simple as the timing mis calculated? Is No 1 sparking at a spot
that is 15 deg after TDC on no 1 Cylinder and not others?
Do you have a steady flow of fuel coming out of the carby bowl? Will it start if you wound out the mixture screw to
2 turns?
Any back firing out the exhaust? Have you tried “start ya Bastard” aerosole spray?
Has any rags been left inside the inlet / outlet valve ports or manifold.
That’s all that I can come up with, done myself or heard that others have done!
Cheers Mate, Alan in Australia

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Roffe
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Roffe » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:28 am

Are you sure you have set the spark to the compression stroke not the exhaust stroke ?


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Loftfield » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:16 am

When my 1912 engine came back from rebuild it was tight to the point that the hand crank was essentially useless. Starting required pulling with the tractor the first few times until break-in was complete, then no problems.

Remove plugs, pour a little gasoline into each cylinder, try again. If it gives a decent start then dies, carburetor, some hidden passage blocked. Alas, Mr. Ford used priming cups for only a short time in 1912.

Pull the spark lever down 5 to 7 notches, crank carefully.

In our winter it is often necessary to jack up one rear wheel, start in high gear due to high speed clutch oil drag. It may be tightness in the high speed clutch???

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by AndreFordT » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:50 am

Steve,

you do not need to feel stupid, I was there two years ago after the rebuild of a 1912 engine.

The car wasn't at my place so I set the engine in a bench and tried to start it up for two days without any luck. I did about all you did to get it running. I even made the crank 20cm(about 8") longer to get better force to pull it around but no way.

Set it for a few days and tried again.
This time I pulled the plugs and drowned every cilinder with gas and waited two or three minutes with the plugs out so most of the gas become vapour and air get in the cilinders. After I set the plugs in place, opened the carburetor for about three turn (very rich), set the ignition right and the switch on. After three pulls It started up and stayed running. I made it run for 30minutes and stopped the engine. After cooling down, I tried to start it up again and needed to do it the same way. I had to do this for the next four starts up than the engine was getting free.

After we mounted the engine in the car, for the first start up we needed to pull the car for a few meters.
Now two year and about 1,000 miles later the engine is starting up very easy and is running great.

I think the problem sometimes with fresh rebuild engines is not the compression, the ignition or the carburetor but the vacuum during the intake stroke. With a stiff engine we need a lot of force to make the rotation speed fast enough to get enough gas in the engine for the first cold start.

Just experience hope it give some ideas.
Andre
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:29 am

Steve,

You haven't got one of those earlier cams where the pin hole for the timer rotor goes all the way through, do you? If you're like me, the 50/50 chance of picking the correct hole means I'm 100% certain of getting it wrong... :?

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TWrenn
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by TWrenn » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:33 am

Jerry!! You took the words right outa my keyboard! I'm voting for wrong timer pin placement.

Otherwise, timing is just too "far off".


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by R.V.Anderson » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:38 am

In addition to the timer rotor, check for an obstruction in the intake manifold. Mice and mud daubers like to make a condo out of it.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:51 am

Use a carb that is a known runner. I chased gremlins on a nh that previously ran good, switched it out with a friends, and it started on second pull. I use the process of elimination on finding bugs. The bugs often make no sense at first, but you cannot assume anything, including compression.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:52 am

Check your gas flow.

Stephen


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:02 am

All good advice. Intake leak, muffler plugged, timing and fuel. A little sweet talkin may help Steve. 😁


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Dennis Prince » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:07 am

Steve, Have you checked the fuel quality? If it was a problem before and sat while you refreshed the engine it is now even older, old fuel and ethanol don't start well, even "fresh" fuel may be reaching the end of it's shelf life when you buy it. Good luck you will get it.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Piewagon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:17 am

Laying spark plugs on the head and watching each of them spark in correct order only checks the firing order and DOES NOT prove that there is enough coil current to fire the plug since the plug in that arrangement is not under compression. You later said you saw a "blue" spark" when the plug was tested with compression. Was that a test of the plug alone and off the car? A typical T spark plug gapped at 1/32" has the equal of about 1/8" (gap x compression ratio) when inside the engine and under compression. Quick test is to setup a 1/4" gap outside the motor using a block of wood and a coat hanger gap testing device. Then make sure that the spark jumps that 1/4" gap which is about twice as strong as it absolutely has to be but should be easy for any good coil. Somebody once told me that 90% of all carburetor problems are electrical in nature... It is not clear to me that the ignition voltage is for sure enough voltage since I don't know how the spark plug "blue arc" was performed. The spark plugs laying on the motor has fooled a lot of people including me. That test only proves out timing but not that there is a healthy spark inside the motor.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Roffe » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:37 am

John. I'm sure Steve used his neat spark plug tester. :)
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Topic author
Steve Jelf
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:06 pm

...I'm sure Steve used his neat spark plug tester.

Yes, I did. But that only tests the plugs, not the coils. I guess I should check those too.
The inevitable often happens.
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speedytinc
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by speedytinc » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:19 pm

A simple screw driver with a buzzing coil, spark plug top to head on each cylinder would do it.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by ModelT46 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:25 pm

are you sure you wired the plugs with the number one on the right and number 4 on the left.(this is looking at the fire wall from the front of the car. Last year when I put the engine back in my 1910, i wired opposite. Could not start it. got a little puff a few times. I corrceced the wiring, started right up.

also check the wires on the timer. At correct posts?

Do the coils buss? are you using 12 volt battery for power on a non stater T. I do.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:27 pm

A simple screw driver with a buzzing coil, spark plug top to head on each cylinder would do it.

Is that any different than laying the plugs out on top of the engine and watching them spark? :)
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by bron-hertford-nc » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:44 pm

re Roffe comment earlier today : pull the plugs, watch the valves on No 1 to make sure you are on compression stroke for TDC and then just slightly more so piston just coming down.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by John Codman » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:46 pm

Are you positive that the valve timing is correct? If the fuel, air, and spark all get to the cylinder at the correct time and in the correct amounts, it's gotta run. One of these conditions is off. Eliminate each one at a time, and you will have a runner.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by speedytinc » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:27 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:27 pm
A simple screw driver with a buzzing coil, spark plug top to head on each cylinder would do it.

Is that any different than laying the plugs out on top of the engine and watching them spark? :)
NO, saves the time unscrewing each one.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:24 pm

I'm with the tight engine crowd. You have spark and have checked the timing setting. That leaves fuel or no/low compression. Try for a comp. reading on at least one cyl. and eliminate that possibility.
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Aussie16 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:32 am

I'm with the ignition timing crowd, then the fuel crowd,lastly the motor to tight crowd. Re check ignition timing, ensure there is plenty of fuel,and to qoute an early motoring publication "if there is fuel and spark at the correct timing, an explosion must result". If you can make the explosion happen it should run. I have had numerous rebuilds and never once not been able to start it on the handle, even when it is tight and new. Good luck and be sure to let us know the result.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:19 am

Steve, in my opinion,
If you’re sure the ignition timing is correct....
I believe the engine is too tight to get the initial speed from cranking it to fire off....
I would try pulling it slowly down the road and let the pedal out into high gear.
I remember helping my father with a couple rebuilds that wouldn’t spin fast enough even with a starter.
Once they got started by pulling and ran for a little bit, they would start on their own.
I took the rods up in a buddy of his Tudor and I was driving it while pull starting and it just slid the tires when I let the pedal up, I then hit the starter at the same time that I hit high gear and she lit up !! After just turning around and coming home, it would start with the starter.
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Bill Coyle » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:23 am

One thing to ponder... we know engines with vibrator type coils get free starts... or at least a CHUFF or two. We also know it requires no existing pressure in the combustion chamber. It does require a rich air / fuel mixture and a spark... (or multiple sparks). Also from experience.... old fuel will not ignite as easily as fresh. Bill

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by George House » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:48 am

Another thing to ponder....does the sediment bulb have a stand pipe projecting up into the gas tank ? If you only poured 1 gallon of gas into the tank there may not be enough pressure to send gas to the carb. Try 3 gallons..
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by John Codman » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:21 am

I don't know how Steve's strength compares to mine, but I can barely turn my engine over with the crank, yet although it cranks very slowly with what I believe is the original (or at least very old) starter; it still starts fairly easily. Steve didn't say that the engine felt super-tight, he just said that it's stiffness was evidence that it had good compression. If the engine felt excessively tight I'm sure he would have said so. I'm still in the fuel/air/spark/timing/mixture crowd.

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George Mills
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by George Mills » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:10 am

Steve,

You state the basics well, and after all these years a practitioner.

OK...befuddled time.

I'm sure that you double checked everything and have not yet gotten it to even cough? I'm also presuming you are doing this on battery side.

I'll share past experience when faced with the same results...something might click!

I went nuts for a whole day one time only to discover that for some strange reason the coil to plug wires wanted different timing. I scratched my head over and over...then pulled the timer cover and discovered that the cam shaft detent hole had been drilled right through and of xcourse the law of averages had me pick the wrong side the first time! Flipped the roller 180 degrees.....vroom on the 2nd pull!

There was one, a '15 at that when like you nothing worked and I was sure it was right after hours and hours. I couldn't even get a 'cough' and was feeling exhausted from crank pull throughs and had resorted to 'foot down'. Asked myself what else outside of the 4 items I had touched, since that day was a band change with hogshead off. I had loosened the exhaust manifold to get that last 1/16" of clearance to let the hogshead pass. I made sure that I kept the inlet manifold tight. In for a nickel, in for a dime, what's two crush rings? Inlet mani off, new crush rings, back together and....amazing...vroom!

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:18 am

With an additional helper, if no compression tester available, remove all 4 spark plugs, cover each hole with thumb, crank engine over through all 4 cylinders to verify - SUCK & BLOW for each cylinder. As touched on here previously, if the piston isn't sucking fuel in, it's not going to start, period.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:37 am

Isn't this the fresh rebuilt engine with SCAT crank? If so, unless valve are not closing, compression should not be an issue. Maybe recheck the valve gap and try priming.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:35 pm

Properly done comp test on even one cyl as suggested (wet & dry) will answer a lot of questions. Rings valves etc. Check at least one cyl. Steve.
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by halftracknut » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:33 pm

brush on new day not making good contact...install good ford cap and roller...rl


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Jim Eubanks » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:56 pm

If it has gas and spark, it has to run. There should be no reason for it to be out of time while doing just a valve job. If you can pull it thru and hear the coils sing for each cyl, then they are working, if you can pull it thru and choke it hard, hear it gurgle and see a little liquid from or around the carb, then it should run.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Jim Eubanks » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:57 pm

If it has gas and spark, it has to run. There should be no reason for it to be out of time while doing just a valve job. If you can pull it thru and hear the coils sing for each cyl, then they are working, if you can pull it thru and choke it hard, hear it gurgle and see a little liquid from or around the carb, then it should run.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by John kuehn » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:47 pm

Put some ethyl fuel in it, something higher octane and pull it off. Trying not to be a smart #$&* but maybe try some different plugs. Sometimes you just never know.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Novice » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:11 pm

Steve did Your 1915 have a electric starter added. if not try pulling it to start till you get it fine tuned and running right.
sounds like a back fire and broken arm waiting to happen. Good Luck

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:20 pm

Steve just trying to assist in your issue. By any chance did you check the cylinder bores for out of round (egging) when you installed the new rings?

Just trying to help,

Hank


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Joe Reid » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:07 pm

Is your New Day timer a new one. Try a different timer, a roller or a flapper. I don’t think too much of the new New Day brushes.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:28 pm

Maybe Steve got it running and is "out & about" ???????


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:45 pm

Joe Reid wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:07 pm
Is your New Day timer a new one. Try a different timer, a roller or a flapper. I don’t think too much of the new New Day brushes.
I have seen too many chewed up, presumably from that hard coper or brass brush. I replace the brush with a carbon cut to fit generator brush & attatch a thin braded coper wire so that the spring doesnt become a hearing element as the ground.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by rbishop26 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:29 pm

I’m not the expert that you above are, and Steve is too smart (and too old :lol: ) to not know this already, but I thought this was a good place I’d throw this in anyways!
I’ve had 3 T’s that have had engines rebuilt and/or rods, rings, timers, etc adjusted.
Not a single one started the same way after. The ‘14 started after precisely 3chokes and no turning of the carb adjustment rod before or after starting. Now it takes exactly 4 chokes and adjusting the carb rob EXACTLY 1/4 turn counterclockwise to start, and then back. My others are the same. More chokes or fewer chokes than before the rebuild, and adjustment of carb now when not before or vice versa. Just to say settings may change from what they were before after work has been done. I could crank one car on 3 chokes all day long and it’ll never start. But give it 4 chokes and it starts first time every time. Every one of my cars is different!
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Matt in California » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:57 am

Steve.
As the saying goes if you have spark and gas you can get a T engine going. I will assume you have a working ignition and carburetor. (If you are not 100% sure at this point I would steal a working carburetor and complete ignition off a working car.)

I might have missed someone mentioning it, but besides bad compression here are two sneaky problems:

Vacuum Leak
Is it possible that the gasket is not covering the mating surface. I think unless it is really bad you would be able to get it started. It would just not run ideally.

Transmission
When I got my first T Chassis. I knew very little, but learned quickly. After getting everything hooked up I tried to start it by hand for a good part of an afternoon. I was exhausted. (Yes, literally cranking by hand for hours.). Some how some where looking on the forum I found the fact that when a car is cool you can put one wheel rear on jacks. It was not particularly cold, but I gave it a try and my car started right up! In hind sight I should have secured the car Incase the jack fell, but I will leave that for another story! Be safe!!!

I hope the best! I look forward to your update.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:00 am

I also agree with jacking up the rear end off the floor will greatly help if hand cranking a stubborn engine. The rotating mass of the rear wheels turning gives it the push that’s needed

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:53 pm

I was away from this for a couple of days, working on non-T stuff, but this afternoon I got back to it.

I started with compression testing, first dry then with six squirts of oil in each cylinder.

1 24 24
2 33 30 I have no clue why it would be lower wet.
3 0?* 36
4 30 34

*Zero? On the compression stroke the needle jumped up over 30 and immediately fell back to nothing.
I must say I have my doubts about the accuracy of my tester. Going by the difference in feeling when I crank with plugs out and plugs in, I think it may be reading low.

With the cylinder oiled and compression apparently at least good enough, I decided to try starting again. I set the NH at two turns open, set the throttle down to what looks like 20-30 mph, choked four times, flipped the switch to BAT, and started cranking. As before, in many pulls I got a smoky pop back through the carburetor a couple of times. Otherwise all was dead.

A couple of things people have wondered about:
I put in five gallons of gas. Way more than enough.
Back wheel jacked off the floor? Yes, all along.


IMG_6101.JPG
When I set about checking the timer I found this. I doubt that it has anything to do with non-starting, but I'll have to get the radiator out of the way and deal with it.
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:34 pm

Blowing right past the rings. They are of course not seated. Gauge should hold the reading. Not hit 30 then drop to zero. I have a problem with your gauge. Freaky readings.Fix your timer, check for fuel in the carb and get help dragging it around for a bit. It will go if you can spin it good.
Last edited by Charlie B in N.J. on Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by kmatt2 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:37 pm

Steve, Check your valves, those compression readings could mean that some valves aren't seating all the way. At hand cranking speed it would be hard to get enough fuel to start that way. I bet if the timing is good and you try towing it to start, it will run, and loosen up enough to hand start after a little running.

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by CudaMan » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:04 pm

If I recall, on one of your previous engine builds you had to remove the plugs and oil the rings before cranking for the first few starts in order to get enough vacuum in the intake manifold for the mixture to get sucked into the cylinders. Once the rings sealed, all was well.

Of course, you have all the plugs out and the throttle set fully open when you're doing the compression test (right?).

Certainly, fix the loose cam seal, check the position of the timer rotor (verify not 180 degrees out), and try again.

Regarding fuel, the engine should pop and maybe even run for a few seconds with no carb installed at all and with a shot of ether in the open intake manifold. I've seen guys run V8s without carbs before for a few seconds, just by dribbling gas into the open manifold hole.
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:37 pm

Is it at all possible that the timing gears were not timed correctly? I know that you're no beginner here, but even us guys with lots of experience can make a slip-up. :roll:

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:54 pm

Long time ago I started taking a picture of the timing marks lined up, just in case I ever wondered. ;)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:36 pm

Is it at all possible that the timing gears were not timed correctly?

Very unlikely, but all things are possible. While I'm dealing with the cam seal I suppose I might as well pull the front cover and take a look.

...even us guys with lots of experience can make a slip-up.

I know a very experienced T guy who torqued down a head and then realized he had left rags in the cylinders. Yep, we're all fallible. :)
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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by Craig Leach » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:35 am

Hi Steve,
I'm with jerry, I'm unclear as to how much work you did as to wether it is possible but I checked out a no start on a rebiult engine done by a very reputable shop that had some compression, spark, fuel. It would only phoot & pop I found the valve timing was off. The owner sent the car to a shop so I never was able to determine exactly what happened. My observation was that the valve timing was about 45* off. If you didn't have the crank or cam out this would not be possible. These things are very frustrating. Iv'e gone to running every engine on the run stand for two hours before putting them back in the car to save time and agrivation. Good Luck.
Craig.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:36 pm

Well. See what I found.
IMG_6105 copy.JPG
The 180º guys nailed it. I was sure the cam was a later one, but I was sure wrong.


IMG_6106.JPG
The brush is pointed to green (#4), not black (#1).


But wait, there's more.
IMG_6107 copy.JPG
The broken brush flops around on the shaft like a wet noodle.
I also found that the timer control arm wobbles on the rod. I have more to do here than just replace a cam seal.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by aDave » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:50 pm

PATIENCE & Persistence PAYS !!


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:20 pm

Spark timing was perfect...just not when the valves were closed

Just how old IS that cam??? In a refreshed engine?
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:29 pm

Eureka!!!!


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by kmatt2 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:37 pm

Good going Steve, and you don't even have to pull the timing cover to check the cam gear. You will be driving your 1915 roadster soon.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by CudaMan » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:50 pm

Glad you found the culprit(s). :)
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Virtus » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:07 pm

Well done Steve! I never doubted that you wouldn't find the problem. It's a good lesson for us all to take nothing for granted. Most of all Steve, thanks for sharing.


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by OilyBill » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:25 pm

EVERY SINGLE experience with a Model T is a learning experience. You ALWAYS learn something new. At least I DO, every time I approach the car.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by TWrenn » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:34 am

Had a friend with the same starting problem, and I told him to check the pin. Voila! Problem solved. On my early cars with the hole all the way through, I always put a dab of paint from the yellow "paint pen" on the hole that the pin goes through...my memory lasts about 5 minutes so I have to do that!

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Craig Leach » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:01 am

Hi Steve,
Fantastic thats great to hear. Some times we (Me) forget Occam's razor princible when looking for a solution. Iv'e been putting gasket sealer on those cam seals so they don't fall out like that. Happy motoring.
Craig.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:36 am

Glad you found it Steve !
That wasn’t the problem you were after to begin with though.
I hope the valve job and rings did the trick.
Anxiously awaiting for it to come back to life. :)

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Novice » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:03 pm

"It's the little bugs that eat Your lunch"

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:52 pm

OK so it was always hard to start but it did run. Your brush is 180 degrees out? Actually I don’t believe it is. I think the cam gear was installed 180 out. That’s totally possible as it only mounts on 2 pins. The marks will align but the cam shaft is 180 from where it originally was. This swaps all the companion cylinders. Where 1 was on TDC compression now 4 is on TDC compression and 1 is on the top off the exhaust stroke. Reversed. Remember it was always hard to start but it did run. My point? Your brush isn’t pointing wrong. It may be broken but it’s not on the wrong cylinder.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Kerry » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:03 pm

Charlie. makes no difference, fit the cam gear 180 around or the cam 180 around, only way to be 180 out is with the timer on the early cam having the hole going right through.


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Re: Feeling stupid

Post by John_Aldrich » Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:36 pm

Loftfield wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:16 am
When my 1912 engine came back from rebuild it was tight to the point that the hand crank was essentially useless. Starting required pulling with the tractor the first few times until break-in was complete, then no problems.

Remove plugs, pour a little gasoline into each cylinder, try again. If it gives a decent start then dies, carburetor, some hidden passage blocked. Alas, Mr. Ford used priming cups for only a short time in 1912.

Pull the spark lever down 5 to 7 notches, crank carefully.

In our winter it is often necessary to jack up one rear wheel, start in high gear due to high speed clutch oil drag. It may be tightness in the high speed clutch???
I had the same issue and some really old T friends of mine came over. They pulled the plugs, poured about an 1/8 cup of oil in each cylinder, re-assembled, 4 cranks later she took off in a cloud of beautiful blue smoke! It was explained to me that new engines don't want to suck gas so the oil sealed the cylinders forcing them to suck gas. Problem solved for me.

Good luck!
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:10 pm

Hard starting but it ran. Like that.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by dykker5502 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:30 pm

Thing to remember when I mess with the timer on my 14.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:29 pm

I'm back, after a bit of a detour. My timer control lever was loose and floppy from wallowed out holes in the lever and rod, and the pin was a cut-off nail. So I took a couple of days to find and paint a better lever, pull back the steering column to fill and redrill the hole in the rod, install the lever with a new pin, and reinstall the steering. Then I got back to attempting a start.

I replaced the broken timer rotor with a new one, installed it pointing to #1 (red) with the timing set at 15º past TDC. Looking through the #1 spark plug hole, I observed that as the piston came up after the power stroke the exhaust valve opened. I assumed that if the #1 valves are right, the rest have to be also. I set the carb adjustment at 1½ turns, set the throttle lever down at what looked like about 20 mph, pulled four times on choke, buzzed the coils, and gave it a go. Nothing. Dead, dead, dead. Not even a cough.

I unscrewed all the plugs, dribbled some gas in each cylinder, replaced the plugs, flipped the switch to BAT, and tried again. Nothing.

I'm grasping at straws now. I'm sure the Splitdorf plugs are good. They look great in the tester. But I replaced them anyway with Autolite 3095's that also tested good. Nothing, of course.

So that's where things stand now. The next thing I'll do is go back and study all the posts above and see if there's something I missed. After that, I don't know.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by CudaMan » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:00 am

You say, dead, like the coils don't even buzz? If so, start tracing the primary circuit from your add-on battery to the coil box, then the coils, then the timer. Did you take the battery out to charge it? If so, clean and double check the battery terminal connections.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by John kuehn » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:47 am

Have you tried pulling it off? Maybe a friend close by can give you a hand. Is there a fairly steep hill close by or on your place?
Years ago I did my first rebuild on my 1919 Roadster. It has a starter so I tried to start it the easy way. I ran the battery down recharged it and still a no go. After a while I pulled it out with my tractor on the slope near my house and let it start rolling down the hill and after a few more tries up and down pulling it back up it finally coughed and I got it running. After that it got to where it would start with the starter. Good luck with your car.


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:18 am

Everything has to be checked, no assumptions.

Compression.
Valve adjustment and timing.
Gear placement
Power to timer
Power to plugs.
Power to cylinder 1 while checking timing
Intake and exhaust manifold seal
Coils functioning correctly and buzzing relating to timing.
Fuel
Carburetor function

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:19 am

...dead, like the coils don't even buzz?

No, by dead I meant no fire. Not even a cough or hint of wanting to fire. The coils are working and the plugs are sparking.

I haven't tried pulling yet, but I may resort to that.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:23 am

If it’s timed correctly, has compression, has fuel being drawn into the combustion chamber, and the plug is firing on compression stroke, it has to start.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Quickm007 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:21 am

I'm not an expert but I would try to remove all spark plugs and add some gas inside the hole. Reinstall them, waiting couple minutes for evaporation but not to much and I'm sure it will fire-up. We did that way with snowmobile in Canada at -40 C. I also used that method with my 1911 the first time because he don't want to start after engine restoration and after trying everything. After that day, he start like a super star. It may help.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by jab35 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:41 am

"I unscrewed all the plugs, dribbled some gas in each cylinder, replaced the plugs, flipped the switch to BAT, and tried again. Nothing."

With new unseated rings this gas likely is in the crankcase. Bummer, Steve, but don't give up! jb


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:09 am

ThreePedalTapDancer wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:23 am
If it’s timed correctly, has compression, has fuel being drawn into the combustion chamber, and the plug is firing on compression stroke, it has to start.
Maybe its time to start over. Confirm all the above. Assume nothing.
Try your starting procedure. pull a plug. is it fuel wet? Do you smell gasoline?

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by AndreFordT » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:41 pm

Steve,

I know you checked all already two or three times, I am still thinking that your engine is just to tight to get it hand cranked fast enough to get the quantity of gas in the cylinders needed to get it running. Did you try to tow the car to start it up?

I was there two years ago at the end, towing (only for a few meters) was the way to get it running. Now, this car is running fine and have an easy cold and hot start. Cold, I prime it till the gas is leaking on the ground. Set the contact on battery and set the ignition on the start position, some times while moving the ignition lever up, I get a free start. Hot even after some time it give a free start every other start.

Five or six years ago I had an other hard starter after a rebuild.
Here, I jacked up the left rear wheel and set it on a jack stand. Set the transmission in second gear. I primed the engine till gas was dripping on the floor, set the ignition right and the contact on battery. Than I turned the rearwheel (forwards) by setting one foot on a spoke and use my body weight (90kg) to spin the wheel. Second attempt I had a cuff at the fourth try the engine was running. Just secure the car so it can't run away and don't use slippers to do this but good shoes.
Using the rear wheel the engine is turning three times faster as with the hand crank.

Good luck and keep it safe.

Andre
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:46 pm

jab35 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:41 am
"I unscrewed all the plugs, dribbled some gas in each cylinder, replaced the plugs, flipped the switch to BAT, and tried again. Nothing."

With new unseated rings this gas likely is in the crankcase. Bummer, Steve, but don't give up! jb
Could try starting fluid.

Already found a timing problem. How about, with the plugs on the head, check vacuum & compression with your thumb to tdc +15. Turn on the ignition. Is the cylinder you checked firing? Repeat in order #2,3,4. This eliminates vacuum, compression, spark & timing issues.

Since this is a "new" motor, the old starting procedure may not apply. My T likes 3 1/4 pulls when stone cold, throttle @4-5 notches. (this is a higher than average compression motor, broke in.) Yours may need different priming & settings. Are you getting visual fuel puke after choking?
Conversely Is it possible you are flooding it? As evidenced by a large fuel puddle.

Good luck, you know its going to be something stupid simple.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by varmint » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:35 pm

I had an engine timing classically 180 out. Assembled the cam and crank shafts on the alignment marks but that was not the same as TDC.

Another engine, I twisted the crank and almost became a member of the two piece club. The woodruff key was half-sheered and the engine would not run right. Everything checked right: air, gas, spark, compression, timing was good too. When I pulled the head, #1 and #4 pistons were not flush with the block surface at the same time. Then I found the almost broke key. So the timing with the spark, cam, chain, and crank pulley all were correct, but NOT with the pistons.

If you think your compression tool is bad, replace it. otherwise it's a game changer.

Yet another engine, cylinder #2 was not working right. Leak down test. Set #2 to its TDC, pumped air into the spark hole, listening for air coming out: exhaust, intake, oil pan, or radiator...
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:59 pm

I’m a bit lost. Concerning why you said the brush was pointing at 4 instead of 1. What was wrong there? The thing ran like that didn’t it? Or am I mistaken about that too? I sure as hell hate this long distance diagnostics. It just doesn’t work. Every time you look at this thing you seem to find something else. If (yet once again) you’re sure everything is 100% I’d be thinking about a tow.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:51 pm

If the timing was that sloppy and imprecise, I'd venture a guess that this was the entire trouble of hard starting all along before all of the engine work was done (which in no way improved the starting sequence).

I agree with Charlie and multiple other posters, who have stated the opinion that at this point, if (IF) everything else is finally right, your rings are leaking badly enough that you need a tow and it should start very quickly in high gear.

It would not be the first time that new rings in old cylinders would not seal well enough at low cranking RPM that an engine failed to start. And once started, it would not be the first such engine to start just fine from then on.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by got10carz » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:45 pm

Just because you hear the coils, doesn't mean its firing. What I'm getting at is the voltage at the battery dropping to the point it won't fire. I had a motorcycle battery for starting read 6.5 volts. After attempting to fire 2 coils it read 2.5 while buzzing. Not enough to make it run.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by DanTreace » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:01 pm

Steve

Agree …..battery can be so weak it will not throw enough current to fire spark plugs under compression.

Helped a fellow with similar issue on his ‘15 speedster, he could not get it to start and called me.
Had motorcycle battery that was old, the coils ‘buzzed’ as we tried to hand crank, but no puffs or grunts from the engine. Told him so , after trying to help him crank it over….so after lunch we bought a new battery , replacing the culprit battery, and she cranked right up!

Takes some amps from a hot battery to get plug fire from those vibrator coils.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:36 pm

Any updates?


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by speedytinc » Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:29 pm

ThreePedalTapDancer wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:36 pm
Any updates?
Ditto. WE gots to know.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:52 pm

I have a helper coming tomorrow. We're going to try a tow start.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:31 am

Bonne Chance.
Forget everything you thought you knew.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:30 pm

Success! Well, sort of. Steve Behrendt came down from Winfield to help and we towed it. We went up to the cemetery corner a quarter mile east, and back. All the way the car coughed intermittently but never started. Back in the yard we stopped in the shade for an inspection. The carburetor was cold and sweaty. The front two plugs were carboned. The back two were wet. We checked the plug gaps and set them all at .030. We towed again, and after two or three hundred feet it fired. I backed the car up to the shop, but didn't have enough reverse pedal to make it up the ramp. The brake and low pedals were also too loose, so I shut it off and tightened all the bands. Restarting the car to back it up into the shop took a lot of cranking before it finally started. So now it sits in the shop awaiting further attention. It starts with a wheel jacked off the floor and a lot of cranking, but I wouldn't call it smooth running. It does run a little stronger on MAG, so at least I didn't mess that up. But before I attempt driving I'll have to fix the hand brake, which slips forward into high gear unbidden. I'm glad to have the thing finally running, but it's still not quite right.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by kmatt2 » Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:01 pm

Steve, after you make your pedal and hand brake adjustments, restart the car and let it run for 5 to 10
minutes. It should smooth out and run better. If it doesn't run better check for a intake gasket leak.


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by John kuehn » Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:25 pm

Your now on your way to start figuring what the issues are and that’s good! Make the brake and pedal adjustments like Kmart says then crank it up and let it run to start checking things out and trouble shooting. Maybe adjust the carb, check for intake leaks and etc. Good luck!

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:23 pm

Good for you Steve - persistence is the key ! These old T's can be challenging !


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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Scott C. » Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:57 pm

Steve, I have been following this thread. I am also inclined to think that you have an intake sealing problem. What gaskets are you using on the manifolds?

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:51 am

What gaskets are you using on the manifolds?

Stock steel rings with copper crush gaskets, with hi-temp RTV added to assure a good seal. The thought of a leaking intake manifold did occur to me, but what I can see of it sure looks good.

I tried another start this morning. Three chokes and four pulls got it going, but I wouldn't call it smooth running. Pulling the crank is easier than it was before yesterday's running.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by CudaMan » Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:10 am

If the steel rings are too tall, you won't get enough crush on the copper gaskets for a good seal. I have not had lasting results with high temp RTV on exhaust ports (with my 1971 Plymouth GTX, I never tried it on a Model T).
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:19 am

It's possible that your block or manifold might have been resurfaced on the side of the block. Try the manifolds on with the steel rings without the copper and see how close you can get the manifolds to the block. If they won't pull down, try grinding a bit off the rings.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:29 pm

The block is definitely not resurfaced. That's the reason for the RTV. I doubt very much that the intake manifold has ever been resurfaced either.

IMG_6137.JPG
Comparing a new and uncrushed copper gasket with the ones in the car, it looks to me like the installed ones are crushed.


This morning the car started with three chokes and three pulls. After choking, turning on the ignition did produce a little jump, sort of an attempted free start. After three pulls got it going I ran it less than a minute and restarted it with no chokes and three pulls. I consider that acceptable, but one pull would be better.

While the car is now reasonably east to start, I'm not satisfied with how it runs, which I would not call smooth at all. I'll keep working on that, and I expect I'll figure it out sooner or later.
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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:44 pm

Possibly not all the rings are seated yet. It may gradually improve as you run it a while. If you get your compression tester sorted out, give her another test. Could rule out or in uneven compression as the rough running reason.

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Re: Feeling stupid - hard starting

Post by CudaMan » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:51 pm

I agree, the engine will likely continue to run better each time you run it for a while, then settle down to a (hopefully) long life. :)
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