Brake pedal engaging low?
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Topic author - Posts: 3873
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- First Name: john
- Last Name: karvaly
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Brake pedal engaging low?
Here"s another new weird one. Today a T was stopped at a light behind another T. Back T engaged & moved forward into the front T with his foot still on the brake. We stopped for a look. Oddly, with the T stopped (parking brake on) Full brake petal engagement I can hear the tripple gears start to grumble. ???? That makes no sense.
Happened again. Coming to a stop, The offending T engaged again,. This time a quick right hand dive to the curb prevented another crash. Brake pedal worked to slow & stop the car otherwise.
Its clear to me that the R/M pedal to equalizer is out of adjustment. Mid to 3/4 brake pedal should have locked the R/M brakes. Parking brake did lock the R/M's. He finished out the tour with a ready reliance on the parking brake.
I dont get tripple gear noise @ full brake pedal when stopped. Whats going on??????
Transmission is noisy. Maybe tripple gear bushings are so worn, The gears bouncing loose are Causing an engagement? Low drum bushing or other seizing? Outside of full brake pedal there is no extra tripple gear noise.
Happened again. Coming to a stop, The offending T engaged again,. This time a quick right hand dive to the curb prevented another crash. Brake pedal worked to slow & stop the car otherwise.
Its clear to me that the R/M pedal to equalizer is out of adjustment. Mid to 3/4 brake pedal should have locked the R/M brakes. Parking brake did lock the R/M's. He finished out the tour with a ready reliance on the parking brake.
I dont get tripple gear noise @ full brake pedal when stopped. Whats going on??????
Transmission is noisy. Maybe tripple gear bushings are so worn, The gears bouncing loose are Causing an engagement? Low drum bushing or other seizing? Outside of full brake pedal there is no extra tripple gear noise.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Properly adjusted linkage and transmission bands should put a T in neutral when the clutch is put in neutral by pushing the clutch pedal about halfway in. It’s in neutral when the handbrake is in straight up position but that’s if the linkage is adjusted and working properly.
I don’t use the handbrake until absolutely necessary. When slowing down or coming to a stop I depress the the clutch to neutral then use the transmission brake and maybe the handbrake if necessary.
Something is going on inside the transmission or linkage if you can’t get a good neutral to come to a stop. I give myself plenty of room to come to a stop to begin with. T’s that are stock don’t have real brakes to begin with.
I don’t use the handbrake until absolutely necessary. When slowing down or coming to a stop I depress the the clutch to neutral then use the transmission brake and maybe the handbrake if necessary.
Something is going on inside the transmission or linkage if you can’t get a good neutral to come to a stop. I give myself plenty of room to come to a stop to begin with. T’s that are stock don’t have real brakes to begin with.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
How long have they been driving a T? Could be they for got and pressed the pedal all the way down into low? Or pressed down on the brake and forgot to de-clutch so car was still in high?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
This is what I think is wrong and what I think should be done.
1. Take out the pin from the rocky mountain brake equalizer to the brake pedal and check the transmission brake which should be tight when the pedal is an inch above the floorboard. You might need to adjust the brake band inside the transmission and/or reline the transmission brake band. When you get this adjustment correct, put the pin back in and adjust so the Rocky Mountain brake is applied with the pedal about 2 inches above the floorboard. The equalizer should apply equal pressure to each wheel. When you press hard on the pedal you will lock both the Rocky Mountain brake and the transmission brake.
2. check the clutch pedal. You should be in neutral when the pedal is about half way down and in low with the pedal about an inch above the floorboard and in high when the pedal is all the way back.
Whenever you want to stop the car you should push the throttle all the way up.
It is possible that the parking brake does put the transmission in neutral but the low pedal does not put it into neutral. See post elsewhere: "Adjusting for a free neutral"
Note also that the low speed notch and cam might be worn out. If this is so, you cannot get a proper adjustment of the low pedal and in order to get low gear with the pedal above the floorboard, you will not be able to reach neutral. In that case, you will need to replace the low notch and cam.
Norm
1. Take out the pin from the rocky mountain brake equalizer to the brake pedal and check the transmission brake which should be tight when the pedal is an inch above the floorboard. You might need to adjust the brake band inside the transmission and/or reline the transmission brake band. When you get this adjustment correct, put the pin back in and adjust so the Rocky Mountain brake is applied with the pedal about 2 inches above the floorboard. The equalizer should apply equal pressure to each wheel. When you press hard on the pedal you will lock both the Rocky Mountain brake and the transmission brake.
2. check the clutch pedal. You should be in neutral when the pedal is about half way down and in low with the pedal about an inch above the floorboard and in high when the pedal is all the way back.
Whenever you want to stop the car you should push the throttle all the way up.
It is possible that the parking brake does put the transmission in neutral but the low pedal does not put it into neutral. See post elsewhere: "Adjusting for a free neutral"
Note also that the low speed notch and cam might be worn out. If this is so, you cannot get a proper adjustment of the low pedal and in order to get low gear with the pedal above the floorboard, you will not be able to reach neutral. In that case, you will need to replace the low notch and cam.
Norm
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
I notice you are in Orange Ca. There are a couple clubs in your area. Orange County club and Long Beach Club. You should be able to fine someone knowledgeable about Model T's who can help you find out what is wrong.
Norm
Norm
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Topic author - Posts: 3873
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Yes this was an Orange county tour today. This is a friends T. I will look at it eventually. The driver is well seasoned, but has not driven this T in a few years. We just finished a driving trip to death valley. Different T. I agree that the R/M adjustments are way out. The symptoms of bad clutch linkage? We will look @ that also.Norman Kling wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:34 pmI notice you are in Orange Ca. There are a couple clubs in your area. Orange County club and Long Beach Club. You should be able to fine someone knowledgeable about Model T's who can help you find out what is wrong.
Norm
What confuses me is the brake pedal to the floor & hearing a change in the tripple gears when parked.
When R/M adjustments are made, the pedal wont go down far enough to get the additional gear noise.
The problem may still be there, but, the engine may stall once brakes work well?. I dont know.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
With the parking brake on, and the engine running, the gears will be turning but the high speed clutch is disengaged, so if there is any looseness in the gears, you will hear some noise. That is normal. It would make no difference whether the foot brake pedal were pushed or not, the gears should still be turning.
Norm
Norm
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Two most likely causes:
1). Someone “built up” the low cam and/or notch with braze to eliminate or reduce free-play like is appropriate for the brake and reverse cams, but not realizing a good amount of lash is supposed to be there on the low cam for proper clutch operation. Trying to get neutral with the pedal inevitably engages low speed because there is insufficient lash to get neutral before beginning to engage low.
2). Fractured driven gear sleeve.
I’ve encountered both these issues a couple times.
1). Someone “built up” the low cam and/or notch with braze to eliminate or reduce free-play like is appropriate for the brake and reverse cams, but not realizing a good amount of lash is supposed to be there on the low cam for proper clutch operation. Trying to get neutral with the pedal inevitably engages low speed because there is insufficient lash to get neutral before beginning to engage low.
2). Fractured driven gear sleeve.
I’ve encountered both these issues a couple times.
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Topic author - Posts: 3873
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
YES. But when stopped, parking brake on, pressing the brake pedal should do nothing. The brake drum is not turning. Yet pushing the BRAKE pedal down further slightly engages, or causes the tripple gears to engage. that last inch to the floor creates a different tripple gear "sing" The sing gets louder, over the normal noise.Norman Kling wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:49 pmWith the parking brake on, and the engine running, the gears will be turning but the high speed clutch is disengaged, so if there is any looseness in the gears, you will hear some noise. That is normal. It would make no difference whether the foot brake pedal were pushed or not, the gears should still be turning.
Norm
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Topic author - Posts: 3873
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Got an email this AM. The guy said he felt something grab. I suggested he confirm clutch linkage settings, adjust up the inside trans brake and R/M pedal to equalizer. At least if the "grab" comes back, with locked brakes, the motor may die but wont create the "carnage" on 2 model T's.
Any other ideas on the "grab"?
Thanks for all your help.
Any other ideas on the "grab"?
Thanks for all your help.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Transmission Brake Band out of position and wrapping on the Low gear drum??
Alan
Alan
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Topic author - Posts: 3873
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
What kind of noise is made with the RM link disconnected? With the RM's connected, pedal pressed down far enough to stop the car, the transmission brake drum could be still turning. When the pedal is pressed "to the floor" it then is stopping the brake drum fully. Which is about how it would be set up, the transmission brake as a back up.
If the car did not go into neutral, could be adjustment of link or worn lugs in the brake drum not allowing the clutch disks to fully disengage. The lugs in the drum can get grooves worn in them that the disks hang up on.
Even with my very worn transmission, in neutral with brake pedal down, brake drum not turning, I don't get any unexpected noise from my triple gears or transmission above the normal whine.
If the car did not go into neutral, could be adjustment of link or worn lugs in the brake drum not allowing the clutch disks to fully disengage. The lugs in the drum can get grooves worn in them that the disks hang up on.
Even with my very worn transmission, in neutral with brake pedal down, brake drum not turning, I don't get any unexpected noise from my triple gears or transmission above the normal whine.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup
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Topic author - Posts: 3873
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Yours would be normal, in that the noise does not change when @ a complete stop.
The car slows down & stops as expected. When sitting with the brake pedal it started moving forward. Harder brake didnt stop the car.
But when stopped, parking brake on, pressing the brake pedal should do nothing. The brake drum is not turning. Yet pushing the BRAKE pedal down further slightly engages, or causes the tripple gears to engage. that last inch to the floor creates a different tripple gear "sing" The sing gets louder, over the normal noise.
Thats the weird symptom.
The car slows down & stops as expected. When sitting with the brake pedal it started moving forward. Harder brake didnt stop the car.
But when stopped, parking brake on, pressing the brake pedal should do nothing. The brake drum is not turning. Yet pushing the BRAKE pedal down further slightly engages, or causes the tripple gears to engage. that last inch to the floor creates a different tripple gear "sing" The sing gets louder, over the normal noise.
Thats the weird symptom.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
See my post above.
A fractured driven gear sleeve.
Getting on the brake hard can pull the sleeve out of line / expand it if it’s fractured. This at the very least can move the driven gear just enough out of alignment to change the noise and also can “put the brake on” the low drum from the inside out. They usually don’t stay just fractured for long before they outright break. Sometimes your engine will stall in low or reverse like it's locked up, then taking your foot off the pedals you may be able to start & drive again. It’s broke and needs to be fixed, shouldn’t just be driven with fingers crossed.
A fractured driven gear sleeve.
Getting on the brake hard can pull the sleeve out of line / expand it if it’s fractured. This at the very least can move the driven gear just enough out of alignment to change the noise and also can “put the brake on” the low drum from the inside out. They usually don’t stay just fractured for long before they outright break. Sometimes your engine will stall in low or reverse like it's locked up, then taking your foot off the pedals you may be able to start & drive again. It’s broke and needs to be fixed, shouldn’t just be driven with fingers crossed.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
You saying the brake shaft is possibly split? I have seen them broken in a spiral from the driven gear. I can see how it would expand & grab the low drum bushing.
Your idea make a lot of sense. I will pass that along, in case I am not involved in the repair.
THANK YOU.
Your idea make a lot of sense. I will pass that along, in case I am not involved in the repair.
THANK YOU.
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Re: Brake pedal engaging low?
Yes. (Ford part name is “Driven Gear Sleeve”)
Especially if it’s a ‘26/‘27. Seems to be way more common on them. Most of them I’ve seen were real gnarled forgings inside. They break in a spiral on both sides from the corners of the keyway, thru the mid-point oil hole, down to the drum.
The last one I saw was over a year ago and it was on a new cast drum and failed after only a few years. It was really a rotten quality forging inside and could have been cracked before it was installed. It’s a good Idea to Magnaflux driven gear sleeves.
Especially if it’s a ‘26/‘27. Seems to be way more common on them. Most of them I’ve seen were real gnarled forgings inside. They break in a spiral on both sides from the corners of the keyway, thru the mid-point oil hole, down to the drum.
The last one I saw was over a year ago and it was on a new cast drum and failed after only a few years. It was really a rotten quality forging inside and could have been cracked before it was installed. It’s a good Idea to Magnaflux driven gear sleeves.