Wood felloe wheel - assesment
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Topic author - Posts: 180
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Wood felloe wheel - assesment
I purchased and am restoring my first Model T (1914 touring) and I am trying to asses and prioritize items that may fail. I use a simple system...Will the failure of this item 1. Annoy me? 2. Strand me? 3. Kill me? With a Model T I am finding that many of the items can fall into all three categories, but there is one I just don't have any experience with and I am having a hard time evaluating.....wooden felloe wheels.
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Here is my question....The wheels on my car are round and true and look good and are mostly covered by a thick coat of paint. I am replacing the tubes, flaps and tires, but am not sure how to evaluate the wheels. The spokes are tight, the wheels are true, but the coat of paint may be hiding something I can not see. I can tell there was a little rust on the wheels some time in the past, but it was cleaned up and repainted. How often do these types of wheels fail? Are there warning signs before failure? Am I worrying too much about this?
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Thank you to everyone in advance for your responses.
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Here is my question....The wheels on my car are round and true and look good and are mostly covered by a thick coat of paint. I am replacing the tubes, flaps and tires, but am not sure how to evaluate the wheels. The spokes are tight, the wheels are true, but the coat of paint may be hiding something I can not see. I can tell there was a little rust on the wheels some time in the past, but it was cleaned up and repainted. How often do these types of wheels fail? Are there warning signs before failure? Am I worrying too much about this?
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Thank you to everyone in advance for your responses.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
I believe much depends upon two things: the climate where this car has spent most if its past 30 years, and the provenance of that thick coat of paint (and just how thick it is !). If the steel rims are free from deep rust pitting, that spokes and felloes are tight is a good indication the wheels are sound. You may want to strip the wheels so that you can positively assess the condition of the wooden parts.
"Get a horse !"
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Are wheels tight? Grab and shake fiercly. Is there any squeek or clicking? If there is any movement you will notice a "dust". At the fellow to rim its rust dust. If they were painted(to mask their condition?) there will develope seperation cracks in the paint @ the spokes & fellow. Keep an eye on them. If, perchance you are removing the tires, look @ the fellow rivets for evidence of loosness.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Good way is to use a dead blow rubber mallet, rap each spoke, with the flat face of the mallet, using a uniform small, slight tap.speedytinc wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:22 pmAre wheels tight? Grab and shake fiercly. Is there any squeek or clicking?
A solid, tight one will make a 'thunk' sound.
A loose one will make a distinct 'clack' , click or rattle sound.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
I’m running original wood felloe wheels on my ‘14 runabout and will second the importance of making sure the rivets (6 per wheel) are tight and secure. Several years ago I contacted a finisher of the O2O tour to inquire as to the originality of his wood felloe wheels. He said they were !!
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
My ten cents worth - If you are seeing red rust "dust" around where the wood felloe meets the steel rim, that's a good indication the wheel is loosening up. You may have to drive around a bit and keep an eye on that area if the wheels have recently been painted to hide the problem. While the spokes themselves may be tight in the felloes,the rivets holding the felloes in place may be loose (or broken). They could be replaced when you change tires, but the best way to tighten that up is to have new wheels made. There are a lot of "home remedies" that turn up in any discussion about wheels, but for the cost of a new wheel, it's pretty cheap insurance on an item that certainly could fall in the kill category.
Terry
Terry
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Thank you for all the great information....As I said...the wheels seem to be tight and true, but have a coat of paint over everything so I can't inspect the rivets. The good news is the previous owner did drive the car between the time he painted the wheels and I bought it and I can not find any cracks in the paint on the wheels. I hope that is a sign that everything is still pretty tight. After I finish the restoration I guess I will start off slow and inspect the wheels regularly to see if any cracks form in the paint. Long term I may look into new wheels.
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Thank you....Bryan
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Thank you....Bryan
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
The rusty dust mentioned above is one indication of a loosening wheel. The repeated slight movement of rim against felloe makes the dust. Sometimes it goes beyond that. I had one wheel that showed light between the rim and the felloe when backlit. That was one of the wheels I replaced with new Stutzman wheels.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
If the coat of paint is some years old, and still intact, then that in itself is pretty good testimony that the wheel is sound. The VERY FIRST indication of a failing wheel is paint damage.
A wheel that has a 30 year old paint job, and every part of the paint finish is in good condition, not cracked, and solid, is the first evidence you have that you have good wheels.
If you cannot get the wheel to flex when you load it, there is no noise, and tapping the spokes gives you a good consistent sound on every spoke, then you have a good wheel.
Actually, the same thing works for a wheel that was painted 2 years ago.
Paint WILL NOT stand up to movement. If there is any movement of wheel components, then the paint coating will be the first thing that fails.
I have never seen a wheel that was marginal that kept it's good paint finish.
It is impossible to have a good paint finish on a failing wheel.
At the same time, it is possible to have a failing paint finish on a perfectly good wheel, if the paint job was poorly done. But a verification of soundness will indicate that as well, and a proper finish is a good investment if your wheels are found to be sound after a close inspection.
A wheel that has a 30 year old paint job, and every part of the paint finish is in good condition, not cracked, and solid, is the first evidence you have that you have good wheels.
If you cannot get the wheel to flex when you load it, there is no noise, and tapping the spokes gives you a good consistent sound on every spoke, then you have a good wheel.
Actually, the same thing works for a wheel that was painted 2 years ago.
Paint WILL NOT stand up to movement. If there is any movement of wheel components, then the paint coating will be the first thing that fails.
I have never seen a wheel that was marginal that kept it's good paint finish.
It is impossible to have a good paint finish on a failing wheel.
At the same time, it is possible to have a failing paint finish on a perfectly good wheel, if the paint job was poorly done. But a verification of soundness will indicate that as well, and a proper finish is a good investment if your wheels are found to be sound after a close inspection.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Brian, want to save $160? Forget the unnecessary flaps and make your own rim liners. I get used 13" tubes from tyre shops, usually free, and cut a
2.5" strip around the outside diameter. This is a snap fit on the inside of the rim, it stays in place when fitting the tyre, and cannot move if/when you run on an under inflated tyre.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
2.5" strip around the outside diameter. This is a snap fit on the inside of the rim, it stays in place when fitting the tyre, and cannot move if/when you run on an under inflated tyre.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Allan - there is a significant operational difference between a "flap" and a "rim strip" - a rim strip offers no protection from a tire iron whilst attempting a tire mounting procedure.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
I am a firm believer in using a flap to protect the tube in the tire. People forget the only part of their car that touches the ground is the tires. I don't understand why people spend so much money on their cars (Both modern and classic) and then skimp on the tires. I inspect and check the pressure in my tires often and it has been worth it. When I find a tire that is suddenly down 3 or 4 psi I usually find a small nail or screw buried in the tire. This is not a big problem in the driveway, but a flat tire on a busy street or remote area can be dangerous.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Wooden wheels are a lot stronger and safer than most people think. They did not use them in the first few decades of automobiles because the people at the time didn't know better. Wooden wheels had been used for centuries and the best methods of building them had become both art and science. As automobiles developed, the designs and methods changed to provide stronger and better wheels than ever before.
Forum people above have given sound advice! Watching for the 'rust dust' coming out from between wood and steel, and paint breaking away at any and/or all connecting points, is the first line of safety inspection. Knocking on the spokes, either softly with a rubber mallet or harder with your knuckles, is the second line of defense. Firm shaking of the wheel is something that you should do at least once every year, or every 500 miles, whichever comes first. Generally speaking, doing these things will give you fair warning of impending wheel troubles.
I am one of the few people on this site that have actually participated in racing model T era speedsters and racing cars on a (more than?) half mile dirt track! I like wooden spoke wheels! I also TRUST wooden spoke wheels. And I routinely inspect my wooden spoke wheels.
For four years, racing reenactments were run one weekend in July in conjunction with an antiques and collectors fair. Over 45 years ago. I was a kid, and my car was one of the slowest cars running. Even at that, I was doing over 45 mph. The fastest model T racing cars were doing better than 70 mph on a dirt oval track! While slightly more than half the Ts were running on steel wire or steel disc wheels, one of the two most powerful and fastest cars ran on wooden wheels! A few other fast cars also ran wooden wheels. During the four years, there were more hub/axle and wheel failures with the steel wire or disc wheels than the cars with wooden wheels, by about four to one!
Wooden wheels, if in good condition, are stronger and more resilient than most people can believe!
Wooden wheels are quite often broken in an accident or other impact. Wooden wheels very rarely ever break and cause an accident!
Forum people above have given sound advice! Watching for the 'rust dust' coming out from between wood and steel, and paint breaking away at any and/or all connecting points, is the first line of safety inspection. Knocking on the spokes, either softly with a rubber mallet or harder with your knuckles, is the second line of defense. Firm shaking of the wheel is something that you should do at least once every year, or every 500 miles, whichever comes first. Generally speaking, doing these things will give you fair warning of impending wheel troubles.
I am one of the few people on this site that have actually participated in racing model T era speedsters and racing cars on a (more than?) half mile dirt track! I like wooden spoke wheels! I also TRUST wooden spoke wheels. And I routinely inspect my wooden spoke wheels.
For four years, racing reenactments were run one weekend in July in conjunction with an antiques and collectors fair. Over 45 years ago. I was a kid, and my car was one of the slowest cars running. Even at that, I was doing over 45 mph. The fastest model T racing cars were doing better than 70 mph on a dirt oval track! While slightly more than half the Ts were running on steel wire or steel disc wheels, one of the two most powerful and fastest cars ran on wooden wheels! A few other fast cars also ran wooden wheels. During the four years, there were more hub/axle and wheel failures with the steel wire or disc wheels than the cars with wooden wheels, by about four to one!
Wooden wheels, if in good condition, are stronger and more resilient than most people can believe!
Wooden wheels are quite often broken in an accident or other impact. Wooden wheels very rarely ever break and cause an accident!
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Steve, I take your point, but it is not an operational matter. It's a tyre fitting matter. Sure, the flap will prevent tyre irons getting at the tube, but at $40 per wheel, that is expensive insurance against clumsy work or poor fitting technique.
I have never had a rim liner cause a problem. I have found flaps, creased and pinching the tube. I have found flaps with excessive overlap at the joint and wheel balance problems. I have found flaps which have migrated around the tube to be found under the tread side of the tyre.
Flaps belong in 21" split rim wheels on the late Ts, but are unnecessary elsewhere.
Obviously, some have different opinions.
Allan from down under.
I have never had a rim liner cause a problem. I have found flaps, creased and pinching the tube. I have found flaps with excessive overlap at the joint and wheel balance problems. I have found flaps which have migrated around the tube to be found under the tread side of the tyre.
Flaps belong in 21" split rim wheels on the late Ts, but are unnecessary elsewhere.
Obviously, some have different opinions.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Wood felloe wheel - assesment
Considering I've mounted 29 clincher tires, mostly Firestones, just in the last 2 years, I'm not new to tire mounting - I take care of several of the local T club's tire mounting needs. I just yesterday removed a Lester 30 x 3 that was mounted over 50 years ago and it had a flap & I even re-used the tube & installed a new flap - went on my '14 Touring that is doing the National Tour next month. We can surely agree to disagree about this subject but if you want me to mount your clinchers, they're going to have flaps !