MTFCA Forum

Hi everyone.

I am in need of some photos of the early 1909 water pump engine pan (pre-serial #2501). Not finding what I need with searches. I need to see how the brazing/welding/soldering around the deep tea cup, ball socket, pan ears, oil petcock holes and the back flange was finished (or not finished). I am not sure if the pan I am working on, has been modified at all in these areas, and I would like it to be as correct as possible.

Thanks.

Tod.

Tod, I can give you all the pictures you need later this afternoon. Do you still need early flywheel magnets?

Hi Kim,

I have the magnet issue solved. Jem Bowkett in England sent me an extra magnet that he had. It was a post #2500 so it was 9/16" thick. I then had it surface ground down to 1/2" and then weight matched it to the old magnet. After re-magnetizing the magnets and assembly, I then took the whole crankshaft, flywheel, triple gear, trans input shaft, etc, fixed rotating assembly in for balancing like I normally do. The engine/transmission is all together and ready to mount on the pan at this point.

That would be great if you can supply some detail photos of the things I mentioned. They did some things differently on these early pans. The deep tea cup is welded on. The pan support arms are brazed only on the inside, and so on. Wondering if they ground down the welds at the factory, or was that done to this pan later. Same question about the soldering around the petcock holes. Also this pan has some one inch welds on the sides of the support arms. One on each side of the arms. I think this is likely a later addition, but I need to know if I need to change this or not.

Tod.

Pics of pre 2500 oil pan.

A few more.

Thanks for coming to the rescue again Kim! Your photos are a big help.

I do have some more questions for you though.

Do you know the engine number for that pan by chance?

What is the single rivet for under the ball socket on your pan? This one doesn't have that feature.

Here are the welds on the pan arms. They have been there long enough that 3 out of 4 are cracking, but how long? Seams like they were put there to prevent a problem as apposed to fixing a problem that was already there. Any sign of these on your pan? I don't remember ever seeing these on another early pan.

What do your petcock holes look like? Is it smoothed down like these? These have been brazed on the inside of the pan and solder has been used to finish the outside of the pan, and then ground to a fairly smooth taper.

On this pan the welding around the deep tea cup is not as wide as yours and it has been smoothed/ground down some. The rear flange welding is rougher but some attempt was made at some point to add brazing and also smooth it out somewhat. The welding work around the ball socket looks like yours but has also been ground down to smooth it out some.

I took some photos of #220 a little while back, but unfortunately these details didn't show well in any of them. I thought the welding around the deep tea cup looked more like the pan I am working on, but I also want to say that the petcock holes didn't have the soldering around them and they just stuck out of the pan.

It seams a little odd that someone would try to smooth out the welds during it's restoration by Harrah's, but leave all the numerous dents I had to take out of this pan (strangely, a lot of them from the inside of the pan and not due to mechanical failure).

Pictures are of the pan from engine number 314. The rivet under the wishbone socket are for the oil dam.

Thank you again Kim for taking the time to take and post these photos!

I'm finding this quite interesting. You can see some progression from your very early pan to the pan I am working on (#1400). I was surprised to see that they started out welding the pan support arms, and all the way down the sides at that. Ford must have realized very early on that they had a problem and that the rivets holding the pan arms were not enough. Seams like the welding of the pan arms was a fix on par with the fish plate in the frames. Looks like they cut down on the welds on later early pans, but the cracks in the welds on this pan suggest they still had a problem. Brazing of the arms to the pan, later on, then makes sense to spread out the loads and stresses incurred. #1400 also shows a weld at the bottom tip of the ear like your #314, but it has been cleaned up more.

Like the pan arms, the nose casting does not show any signs of external brazing on #1400. #314 looks to agree with that.

Not sure what to make of the treatment around the petcock holes yet. Seams like they were refining the production process and the product as they went. This could be original. Not sure why someone would add it later other than to try to solve a leak. Nothing else is soldered on this pan so a later repair is my best guess at this point (but I was wrong on my guess about the welding on the arms). Would be helpful if I could see some other examples of pans closer to #1400. I will try to get a hold of either Royce Peterson or Arrdean Vaughan about #904 and see if they have anything to add. Any other suggestions?

I have a local friend who owns #980. Maybe he can check these details on his pan also.

Hi Todd and Kim,
I have attached pictures of my sump for Model T engine number 685 I hope that can help
Dave

Thanks Dave for posting!

Your pan matches Kim's in those areas. Are your pan arms welded on the sides also? What do your petcock holes look like?

Need to find a pan closer to #1400 to get a better idea of how they may have changed (Did they start grinding the welds down? Did they add the solder around the petcock holes at the factory at that point?). I don't have a reply yet on #904. Seams I don't have the right contact information for Royce (Royce in Dallas TX).

Tod.

Here are some more photos

One way to contact Royce is to send him a message via his model T Ford fix website:

https://modeltfordfix.com/

Dave, Good to see that your pan arms are welded too. It is clear to me now that the welds on #1400 are original (but cracked ).

The soldering around the petcock holes is how I would expect to see it done if they were soldered, or brazed, at all on the outside. It looks to me like the brazing, inside the pan, on the upper petcock fitting on #1400 cracked and I think the solder job was a way of fixing it without disassembling the engine. Would still like to see a pan closer to #1400 on this issue.

The front casting is brazed some on your #685. I wonder if that is a later repair on yours. No sign of brazing on the outside of #1400. They were also obviously trying different methods along the way too, so that is something to keep in mind.

Looks like #685 doesn't have the rivet for the oil dam below the ball socket. Kim's #314 does. #1400 does not.

What are the three brazed rivets (?) on your pan below the transmission for?


Mark, That is how I tried contacting Royce and the reply I got was that he doesn't remember ever working on #904??? I'm very confused on that one.

Those rivets below the transmission were for some kind of band support. I've never seen the drawing of the support so I don't know anything further. I'll post some pictures of the pan from #980 tomorrow.

The band support was an “L” shaped sheet metal bracket that was riveted to the pan directly under the transmission on the earliest Model T’s. It seems the Ford engineers felt it was necessary to have something to prevent the bands from dragging on the transmission drums. Most examples of early (very low numbered Model Ts) surviving pans have had the band support removed or broken off. The drawing for the band support is in the collections of the Benson Ford Research Center at The Henry Ford.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess

If you need to contact Royce you can also reach him on FB. Then you can send an IM.

I am not sure, but I think I heard Royce is moving, and no longer in Texas? May be why he is difficult to get ahold of lately?

Pictures of the pan from car no. 980. When these pans were stamped out, the metal stretched to far and fractured in the rod dips in many of these early pans. You can see the factory repairs in this pan. Also the remains of the band support can be seen.

More pics from 980

Thank you Kim and David for taking the time to post the photos!! This has been a big help in identifying what is correct for this pan and how it should be restored.

Kim, the photos of #980's pan are of particular help to me. Interesting to see the progression with the welding around the deep tea cup drain. Looks like #1400's pan by this point. But the pan arm welds are still full length yet. I highly suspect the finishing around the petcock holes on #1400 should look like #980's as I am certain that what is currently there was done to fix a leak because of cracked brazing inside the pan around the upper fitting.

Thank you Trent for your addition of information on the band support. I seem to recall reading about that some time in the past.

Still would be great if we could get some photos of a pan between #1400 and #2500. This has been quite interesting to see the progression on these early pans. Anybody know of someone I can contact?

Something else that you guys might find interesting, #1400's pan does not have a oil dam in it and it doesn't look like it ever did. It has the rivets in it to fill the holes in the sides, but there is no sign of the oil dam ever being welded or brazed to the inside of the pan. I know they dropped the oil dam at some point but I thought that was somewhat later.

I have been enjoying the entire thread! All very interesting.

The “Oil Dam” on #980’s oil pan is of the type used on the first 2500 cars according to the factory records I have found. It carried the factory part number T-814. Technically, the one on #980 is an example of a T-814A. A slightly different design for the oil dam was used on later 1909 and 1910 cars. The later dam used a slot in stead of the 1/2” round hole you see in the picture Kim provided. There is no mention in the early pan documentation that the oil dam was to be welded in place (the factory drawing shows where other parts were to be welded, including the oil petcock supports).

The band support was riveted to the bottom rear of the pan, under the transmission. It was given the factory symbol or part number T-813. It appears to have been used on the first 2500 cars only. The drawing for the band support looks something like the photo below:

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess

This is interesting. #1400 does not have the band support, and never did. There is no sign of it ever having the holes drilled/punched in the pan for the three rivets.


I can't be 100% certain, at this point, that it never had the oil dam, but I can't see any witness marks to suggest one was there at one time.

Now I really would like to see some more examples in the #1200 to #2500 range.

Were other oil dams welded in? If so, does the workmanship of the welds match enough to suggest it was done at the factory?

Was the band support dropped well before #2500 or is this pan an exception to the rule on this issue?

I started to question if this pan could be a modified later one piece pan, but it has the correct front casting and the smaller drain hole in the pan stamping to basically match the casting. Also the oil troughs are deeper than the later one piece pans. So it looks to be a correct pan.

Anyone know someone with a T that is between serial number #1400 and #2500??