Model T Tires

[Model T Ron]

So what would be the better brands of tires for the Model T and who has them for the best price.

Thanks
Ron

[Norman Kling]

Most of them are made in Viet Nam using the old molds from the U.S. tire companies. So you can pick any brand or tread design you like. Doesn't make much difference in the wear. However, for the earlier cars, the white tires are good for show cars, but for "drivers" the black ones will wear the best.
Norm

[TWrenn]

And most of the vendors are within a few dollars of each other on price. So you just pick your favorite one or closest one to maybe keep shipping cost down a bit. Shipping on tires has gone through the roof like everything else.

[Mark Gregush]

Without knowing what your budget is, start by doing a general internet search of "30X3-1/2 tires" (or what tire size you need). Next do a search of "mtfca; tires". But you do not say what size tires you are looking for; 30X3, 30X3-1/2 or 21 inch, heck it could be rear TT tires. I think there are some shortages right now so may be limited on what you can buy if you need them now. Look for sellers like Summit Racing, they may have free shipping on some sizes, also look for sellers that have warehoused close to where you live. Dealers like Lang's (for example) may be drop shipping tires, like some other parts the dealers sell, from the manufactures.

[RajoRacer]

What Norm said - it's just a matter of your tread design preference.

[Oldav8tor]

There are shortages now.... I tried to buy a Universal T Driver and was told they wouldn't be available until mid-August at the earliest. Same with tubes. Sometimes the companies will offer free shipping for holidays and the like or free delivery to events like Hershey, etc.

I have about 3700 miles on a set of T-Drivers and am happy with them. They are oversize compared to most 30x3.5 tires. I recently ordered some brass-stemmed tubes from Blockley in England because of a) I couldn't get them in the US and b) they're supposed to be of the highest quality. The reason I'm getting brass-stemmed tubes is I've had some failures of rubber stems on my Hartford tubes. It appears that the sides of the stems were cut by the bead of my clincher T-Drivers. I ground a little relief into the bead where the stem goes thru but I'm concerned that was not enough. My suggestion - whatever tires you get, go with the brass-stemmed tubes.

You may get some guys telling you I'm nuts but each of us chooses what we're comfortable with. Me? I really don't want to be changing tires on the side of the road if I can avoid it.

[varmint]

I am happy about my purchases from these two companies:

https://www.cokertire.com/tires.html

https://www.lucasclassictires.com/

[John Codman]

The major selling point when I bought my '27 was that it came with a brand-new unrun set of Firestones. I wish that they were not white sidewalls, but at the time they listed for more then $150 each. That's at least $600 worth of tires! They are wearing well and although I don't run Firestones on my modern cars, The T likely came with the 'stones from the factory. Just to stir the pot a bit, when I installed them I replaced all of the tubes (except for the spare - I used the best of the five tubes in the spare which is an ancient Cities Service ACME brand), and I replaced the duct tape with real flaps. I have had no tire issues (other then I think one of the tubes is reacting with the whitewall on one of the tires. No flats, no vibration, no problems. The pounding sound that you hear is me knocking on my real wooden desk.

[Scott_Conger]

Wards Riversides
great tires
https://www.performanceplustire.com/ant ... 1VEALw_wcB
$162 and free shipping with a $9 handling fee (all in all, pretty darn reasonable

[Allan]

Here in Australia, the new Blockleys from a renowned English Tyre company are at 10% premium over the cheapest of the others. There is no way I will be encouraging the other providers of the junk presently available by purchasing any of their product. 3200 miles on a set of Universals. That's one trip from the west coast to the Model T Museum and back. Hardly a good result.

Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

Has anyone driven 3201 miles on a set of Blockley T tires yet?

Transposing Pounds to Dollars brings them to $248 before shipping and other import costs.

Given the mileage I get from them, Riversides, with free shipping, Riversides are quite a deal in comparison.

I will bet that within the Model T hobby as a whole, the vast majority of owners barely warm their tires up on the way to the ice cream parlor with the grandkids (and that's when they happen to be in town).

[Retro54]

Here in Australia, the new Blockleys from a renowned English Tyre company are at 10% premium over the cheapest of the others. There is no way I will be encouraging the other providers of the junk presently available by purchasing any of their product. 3200 miles on a set of Universals. That's one trip from the west coast to the Model T Museum and back. Hardly a good result.

Allan from down under.

Allan, here in the US, with shipping prices the way that they are, people buy what they can afFord. I purchased Universals since I live 15 minutes from their warehouse. No shipping. Blockley tubes and tires, even if they are a better produce are at least a 150% premium over what I just put out for universals. The Universal T drivers are good for most hobbyists over here, the Dean Yoder and Seamus's of the hobby are few and far between. Most of us just need a decent tire at a decent price. The advice above is good. Buy what you can afford, if you go through the first set in short order, then pay up for better ones next time.

[NU2theT]

Ron I ordered a set of 21" Lesters through universal tire, made in the same facility as the Firestones about $30 cheaper per tire and they were available @ the time I ordered. Finding rubber stem tubes was fun, lucky to find Snyders had some in stock.

[Art M]

I think both the wards tires and the universal tires give very satisfactory wear and ride. Wards are slightly lower in price. I bought universals because I like the looks of the tread design.
They are now over three years old with over 4500 miles and have more than half of the tread left.
Ar t Mirtes

[Steve Jelf]

Nope, not $248.
As of 9:45 CDT, Blockley's £149 = $207.11. Are Blockleys worth $45.11 more? That's 28%. If they last 29% longer or more, the answer is yes. Of course, when you add in shipping that raises the Blockley price, which makes the Riversides look better up front. On the other hand, if Blockleys last 50% longer that's the way to go. But I agree with Scott. If you don't drive much it doesn't matter.

[Model T Ron]

I am going to be getting my 1915 Touring soon and it will need tires. Did 1915 have 30x3 on the front and 30x3.5 on the back? Also was Ford using the all white tire in 1915?

Thanks
Ron

[Steve Jelf]

Yes, and yes. But I would use white tires only on a show car. For a driver I go with black.

[Steve Jelf]

Some tires at Hershey.

Pete Ratledge shows his 1911, but he also drives it a lot.

Most of the brass fords wear black.

I think this 1915 looks good in black.

[Model T Ron]

Yes, and yes. But I would use white tires only on a show car. For a driver I go with black.

Are the Ward Riverside tires any good or would I be better off with Universal or Firestone? They seem to be the lowest cost option.

Thanks
Ron

[Steve Jelf]

There are two kinds of Model T clincher tires. One kind is Blockley. The other kind is all the other brands, which are all made in the same Vietnamese factory of the same materials. Firestone, Wards, Universal, whatever, all basically the same tire with different looks, names, and prices. Blockleys are also made in Vietnam, but claim to be much higher quality and longer lasting. I'm currently running Wards, but when it's time for new tires I'll try Blockleys. If they last 50% longer they'll be cheaper per mile. If I didn't drive much, I'd stay with the Riversides.


https://www.performanceplustire.com/ant ... 1VEALw_wcB


https://www.blockleytyre.com/

[Allan]

Blockley's, minus the un-necessary flap, are about the same price as the rubbish, with a flap.

Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

Blockley's, minus the un-necessary flap, are about the same price as the rubbish, with a flap.

in Australia

And Steve Jelf is correct in his calculation...I redid it this AM and do not know where or how I came up with my number that I posted above

And for Ron: Be realistic in your estimate of driving distances...being that you are new to T's, that really is a difficult thing to do, now, as you don't have any idea yet of the effort and fatigue involved in long distance driving (yet). There is no correct answer to your question for "best". Myself, I will likely buy some Blockleys eventually, but for now my cheap (relatively) Riversides are giving good service on fairly abusive roads.

While this car is sporting Firestones, it will eventually get Riversides when the day comes...This car has a set of 20+ y/o tires and my experience has been that older tires are often longer-lived than some new tires and some new lots of tires are better than others. Do not spend the $$ for white...they have a very short life on the road. Here's a picture of the year car you're buying, on our road headed off our property...

[RajoRacer]

Allan - why do you maintain such an aversion to the use of flaps ????

[Hudson29]

Allan - why do you maintain such an aversion to the use of flaps ????

Good question, I would also like to hear more about this.

When I was coming up Pop ALWAYS used flaps in whatever car we had (not Model Ts) until tubeless tires became popular. He said they protected the inner tube from pinching. This was an article of faith from when he came up in the 1930s.

When I installed the New Zealand Firestones on the '23 Runabout I used flaps, I didn't even consider not using them. So far, no flats.

Now I read here on the forum that Ford did not use them and many modern T owners don't either. Possibly time for me to rethink this . . .

Paul

[speedytinc]

The only adverse thing I have heard about flaps, is a fellow that used them in some wire wheels. The flaps apparently didnt go in centered & created a gyroscopic imbalance @ speed. He removed them & problem went away.
Original clincher tire inner edges over lapped when seated necessitating cutting notches for the valve stems. In such tires, without the notches you might not be able to get the tire beads in place. Newer tires - the inner edges dont even meet, much less overlap. (Worst i have seen was firestones) Thats partly why an under inflated tire can be rolled off the edge unless you keep them full (60#) Also necessitates protecting that exposed area of the tube to the bare rim. Commonly done today with a layer of duct tape. A flap also protects the tube in that open area(no need for tape) + helps prevent a pinch when installing the tire.

[dykker5502]

I recognize that the situation is different in Europe (EU) but I needed 2 new reartires for my '14 touring and choosed Blockley as I liked the period pattern and believe they where similar price as the "traditional" brands. I also bought 4 tubes as I needed them for 2 sparewheels for another T.
I have never used flaps. I tried as I was told I had to, but I could not make it work mounting them. I have had issues with puntures, but that was some thin tubes bought at Snyders via a local danish dealer (and funny enough they where made in Denmark!!!). Since I have found and bought some thicker tubes and have had no issues with punctures in any of my now 3 Model T's.
I must admit though, that when I mounted the Blocleys, I brushed the inner side of the felloe with a steelbrush and then applied ducktape to make the inside smooth. It might also help at the mounting.

[Scott_Conger]

As John mentioned above, modern tires, and I agree about the Firestones, do not meet anywhere near in the center, so all of the "period" drawings of tires showing a "water-balloon" shaped tube fully encased by the tire can be thrown out. The reality is that without a flap, those tubes pooch up between the beads, extruding some, and rubbing on the rim. I as have many others have experienced (in my case a newly purchased "T") where tires will maddeningly go flat over a day or two with no obvious reason. Demounting the tires in my case showed the tubes to be permanently mis-shaped and a nice 1/4" wide rusty-brown line at the ID of the tube. Feeling it with my fingers showed that they were obviously rubbed very thin and when blown up and submerged showed a multitude of exceedingly tiny "sizzles" of air. Not even something that I'd describe as a hole, but more like porosity.

Properly installed flaps, as a "bandaid" for mis-made tires solves this problem. For the folks who say "FORD didn't put 'em in, so I won't either!!" Fine for you. Suit yourself. Ford didn't put double wishbones on early cars, either, but they're prudent today. So are flaps. I find that getting to lunch in a timely manner rather than giving a clinic on tube repair on the side of the road makes for a more enjoyable day.

As far as lining the rims with duct tape, this solves the roughness problem of the rim, just like a freshly painted rim would. It does not go to the root cause of the issue and in no way supports the tube from the stress and subsequent extrusion that it is subjected to.

Perhaps the Blockleys are designed correctly but I won't hold my breath.

[Model T Ron]

So how many miles can you expect on Ward Riverside White vs Black? Does anyone sell a whitewall 30'' Tire? I would think the whitewall would give you the best of both worlds.

Ron

[Scott_Conger]

viewtopic.php?t=13849
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1427528394
not very good mileage with white tires of recent vintage...

some time back, they were much better: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1208196096

[Allan]

Fellows, it's not the flaps to which I object. I have 6 Ts on 30 x 3.5" clinchers. My objection is to the $40 cost. That's $200 per car, for something which is unnecessary. Flaps help clumsy fitters keep the tube isolated from tyre irons, and they keep the tube away from rough/rusty rim bases. I solve the rusty rim problem by fitting a rim liner cut from the outside diameter of a 13" inner tube, usually free from my tyre dealers scrap bin. This means the tube is entirely encased in the tyre and rubber liner when fitted. The liner also helps to fill the bead on the rim, making the narrower beads on modern tyres a better/tighter fit, and less likely to move under lower pressure. When fitting tyres with both beads at the same time, that solves the problem tyre irons impinging on the tube.
I totally agree with the poster who said that older tyres last so much longer than the new stuff we have had foisted upon us.I can see the logic of buying the lesser quality stuff if one is not going to put mileage on them, but that is a false economy if the tyres will crack up when not in use, as many of them do. Bring on the Blockleys. The small premium in price I will gladly wear.

Allan from down under.

[Steve Jelf]

When I installed the New Zealand Firestones on the '23 Runabout I used flaps...

How are they doing? I bought some NOS NZ Firestone whites at a bargain price. It turned out I was robbed. Country roads ate them up PDQ.

[Scott_Conger]

Folks who are dead set against the use of flaps may feel free to avoid this post as it will contain information that may be disruptive to their paradigm.

This is for newer hobbiests who are wondering why others rail for or against a particular item. In this case as is usual, facts matter. After seeing/hearing the facts, conclusions are up to the jury.

This is the cross section of a vintage tire...note that there is no way for a tube to contact the clincher rim, and thus has no need of a flap...very likely the reason that they were not considered necessary "back in the day":

photo courtesy of MTFCA and Dan Treace

And now, we have these beauties and similar, which do not fit at all correctly, and pose risk to the tube via extrusion and chaffing, thus making the use of a flap a prudent if not obvious decision for many T drivers who no longer see any charm in repairing random and frequent flats. The tube shown is inflated with only 7PSI and not 60PSI, so deformation of tube has not yet occurred...the pertinent view is that the modern tire does not envelop the tube as it should:

Universal T Driver Tire on clincher rim.jpg (27.17 KiB) Viewed 5561 times

photo courtesy of MTFCA and Bob Cascia

In fairness to the Universal T Driver tire shown above, the opening between the beads is so massive that it cannot extrude the tube sufficiently to damage it, though a less than perfect rim will. Firestones and others have a narrow gap here and pinching and extrusion is all but assured. Installation of flaps on modern tires blunts the effect of tube deformation and places a physical barrier between it, and the rim, regardless of the condition of the rim.

[Model T Ron]

Scott
As a new guy I appreciate the photos that you posted. Do you have any showing what flaps are? Also what brand/style tires would you get now a days? I am not going to be taking my 1915 across the country but I do plan on driving it.

Ron

[Scott_Conger]

Ron

before I proceed, you should know that there are two terms often misapplied when discussing this topic. It hasn't come up yet in this thread, but has in others, and that is the difference between a Rim Liner and Tire Flap. A rim liner is a thin rubber strip which is stretched around the rim...some folks swear by duct tape as an alternative. When I was at your stage of the hobby, I became convinced that I needed to go the Duct tape route. What a gawd-awful mess I found 2 years later. Investigating the situation I discovered that I did not need a rim liner, but a tire flap. A tire flap is a heavy rubber flap (more than a strip) which is moulded to have a curve in it. The tube is placed into the tire and inflated to about 3-4 # so as to hold it's shape and fill the tire without wrinkles. The flap is installed over the tube and tucked under each bead of the tire. The molded curve of the flap allows it to hug the tube and conform nicely to the inside of the tire (there is a single hole in the flap for the valve to stick through). The valve core is removed, allowing the tube to deflate entirely, and the tire can be levered onto the clincher. I do both beads at a time, starting with the valve area...tire is pushed over the clincher, valve pushed through the clincher, about 7" of tire on each side of the valve seated fully with a rubber mallet and then work your way around with a tire iron, popping both beads on simultaneously. The rest is normal stuff, as in inflating and deflating the tire several times to allow the tube to find it's final resting spot without wrinkles or pinches.

The flap will come with a sticky coating which I have found will make your hands filthy, but I get best results by leaving it on the flap. I do not know if it is a mold release agent or some sort of wicked rubber lube, but things just seem to work better by leaving it on. I use talc or Ruglyde to make the beads slick and want to go over the clincher...which one I use depends on how long it takes to find the bottle of Ruglyde.

I get things likd Flaps from either Chaffins or Lang's and do not know if there are different mfgs or not. I have always been happy with what I receive. They are a one-time purchase and will outlast you, your tires and maybe your car.

I do not have a picture of a flap installed, but suffice it to say that it is inside the tire, supporting the tube at the clincher opening. It is made of a substantial cross section of rubber, well in excess of the tube wall which is thickest at it's midpoint and tapers somewhat to the edges, providing the most support where it is needed the most. I'd estimate that it envelopes about 1/3 of the diameter of the tube.

A picture of a rim, tube, flap (the thing marked "USA TUBE"), courtesy of MTFCA and Dan Treace:

[Steve Jelf]

I became convinced that I needed to go the Duct tape route. What a gawd-awful mess I found 2 years later.

Many people don't realize that duct tape stickum dries out and the tape comes loose.

[jab35]

The duct tape issue has been mentioned here before. I believe 'Gaffer's Tape' is the more durable material recommended for this application. fwiw, jb

[speedytinc]

I became convinced that I needed to go the Duct tape route. What a gawd-awful mess I found 2 years later.

Many people don't realize that duct tape stickum dries out and the tape comes loose.

It does. I prefer a wide black gas pipe tape. Ones I have found are still gummy & shredded. I do a lot of tire work for others. So I am the guy dealing with the mess. Flaps do remove that clean up. I encourage my customers to use them. I think my clinchers all have flaps. I took em out of my drop center wheels. They were twisted up, out of place.
I have not used rim strips on clinchers. Concerned they will move out of position.

I, too, have had issues with the tube contacting & wearing on a rim & causing a bunch of tiny leaks.(tires I didnt mount)

Those thick brockley tubes should solve all the problems & possibly cure the need for flaps.

Scott: great pix of the issues with todays beads.
I wonder if the Brockleys have addressed this. Has anyone noticed?

[Norman Kling]

Flaps should be used on clinchers. They are also good to be used on split rims. However on drop center rims. the rim strip keeps the tube from contacting the rim. It is not necessary on very clean smooth rims, but if pitted or rusty, the strips will save a tube. So it just depends on what type tire and rim you are using.
Norm

[DanTreace]

Scott

Your post was very clear on the purpose of flaps in today's modern tires. Have used flaps in all my clincher rims for 20 years. Makes tire mounting easier and saves on tubes as you wrote. BTW, Ford factory used flaps in Split Rims, and should be used today. Ford Service also warned with the marketing of the new wire wheels in 21" size Not to use flaps in drop center rims, that will cause issue in install or removal. Once had to pull a tire off a drop center rim Ford wire that someone foolishly put in a flap, that was a chore!


Just one thing, I got a recent batch of flaps from Langs. 30"x 3 1/2" flaps to install in a Firestone tire, BUT....these pair of flaps when received weren't going in my tires.....no way. This pair was HUGE, bet they are Truck Flaps, too wide, and no molded curve or taper to fit to the narrow tubes used in T tires.

I called Steve Lang to let him know others will likely complain, fortunately for me he had two slightly used flaps on hand that he just sent me.

Note the proper flap on the Left, Made in USA and marked for 23" rim, with marking to note "tube to this side". These are correct and what I have always used.

Seems that Lang's and maybe others can't get the proper flaps now, maybe a supplier issue, or Covid19 issue or what ever. But the large, wide, flat with no taper flap on the Right just won't work!

Proper Made in USA 23" flap surrounding a new tube going into a new tire casing.

100_4136.jpg (106.78 KiB) Viewed 5376 times

[Allan]

Scott, the photos you posted tell a story. However, only part of the story. The first one shows a rim section which has the bead turning back on itself, not the usual profile. I suspect it is a modern replacement.There is no way the tyre can properly fit in that bead. We are not told whether that is for the narrower front wheel. We are not told whether that section of tyre is from a 3" or 3.5". The fact is, when properly fitted and inflated, the overlap in the centre of those beads will disappear into the rim beads.

The second photo shows a proper clincher rim. The tube type rim liner I fit is cut to the width of the outer edges of the A's you use in the illustration. As such, they lift the inner edge of the tyre bead, and make the bead a better fit in the rim. The totally isolate the tube from the rim.

Some of the flaps today are far too wide anyway for narrow T tyres. I had a job removing a set of Firestones to replace some cheap, undersized motorcycle tubes that had valve stems too short to access them without an extension. The flaps fitted had prevented the inflated tube pushing the tyre out into the beads, resulting in wear groves in the sidewalls some 3/8" up from the seat on the bead. One tyre had to be discarded because the wear grove was into the canvas.

Flaps are essential in 21" split rims like those on 26-7 Ts. The tyre tube and flap assembly is fitted as a unit over the collapsed rim. The same applies to the TT rear wheels, and all truck wheel up to the advent of tubeless truck tyres.

Allan from down under.

[Oldav8tor]

Wow! What great responses! I'm bookmarking this one.

Question for Scott - looking at the cross-section of the Universal T driver, would you use a bridge washer between the flap and rim to reduce tension from the stem pulling on the tube when the rim nut is snugged down? Blockley says no Bridge washer required but will the thick flap be enough to prevent the tube from being pulled down between the beads if you don't over-tighten the rim nut?

[Allan]

For general information, the bead on Blockley tyres is no wider than that on the current offerings. This may be a reflection of their Vietnamese origin, like the rest of the current offering. To my knowledge, the tyre carcases are not the problem with the current crop. The life of the tread and the cracking in the sidewall are. I believe the Blockley tyres have been developed to overcome these failings.

Allan from down under.

[Scott_Conger]

duplicate posting due to long computer lag

sorry, please disregard

[Scott_Conger]

Tim, regarding bridge washers and Blockley tubes: I don't know one way or another

I'd be inclined to follow manufacturer's recommendations until such time as they are perhaps shown to be faulty

Allan, to your points regarding the pictures, they are not my pictures and were selected from MTFCA archives to simply clarify discussion points.

[J1MGOLDEN]

Pete Ratledge also has a complete set of white tires on new rims for show inspections - sometimes.

I visited Pete last month and saw them there. I suspected that was why they were not on the car.