Spokes, School me Please!
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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- First Name: Cap
- Last Name: Weir
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Spokes, School me Please!
I'm working on a 13 T for a Former School Teacher/Coach of my Oldest Sons Father in Law.. Somewhat removed but still family..
The T was the Teachers Dads.. Others have worked on this to 'Get it Ready', and now it's in my Hands to 'Give it Road Manners'.. it had NONE!
All WAS good.. Engine in and Out Checking and Adding an Oil Line, looking at how others has installed the Starter.. Put an E-Timer in it, and after three trys got the Carb to finally idle. I can now Hand Crank it Cold, Second Pull.. Life is Good..
I planned on putting Rocky Mountain Brakes on it, before I returned to to 'Larry'.. The 40 Mile trip I did with it To/From Work did a good Shake Down Tour.. Loosed the Black Painted Spokes all 'Round.. Time to Check them out..
I removed the Front Wheels ( Demountables Now ), and Put .010 Paper Between the Spokes and Got it all tight.. The Painted Black spokes on the Front Look 'OK' Under the Paint.. The 'Tenon' ( I think that is what it's called.. the Tit on the Spoke that goes into the Felo).. was a little Loose, so I coated it all with Mineral Oil, and dabed a little 'Gorilla Glue' which will expand a little as it cures.. My thoughts here are the Mineral Oil acts like a Release Agent to keep the Glue from Sticking to anything, and the Poly Foam that is Created will keep the Tenon from 'Wiggling' in the Feloe as the loads shift..
All back together, all good..
Now to tighten the Rears, and Mount the Rockys.. The Rims and Have have the 'Same Look' as the Fronts, except the Spokes are different left to right.. The Left Side spokes are 'Straight Cut', and the Right Side are '5 Deg Cut' on the Opposite Surface to the Normal 15 Deg Taper for the Center Hub.. The Fronts were all the '5 Deg Cut'.. I don't know what that Cut type is Called, But I like the 5 Deg Cut.. Makes pushing Spokes together easier.
Now the Problem.. The Rear spokes make me nervous.. they have been shimmed with .020 Aluminum between the Spokes, and the Tenon also has .015 C Cut shims on them.. Oh and they have Grain Cracks running the Length that has been filled with black paint.
So replace them right.. well I'll do the Job.. Never done it before, but always up for a challenge..
I need help understanding what spokes to get.. How to measure.. and what sort of tooling will I need to make.. IE. Am I going to have to Bore the Center Hole for the Hub?.. I'd like to, as I'll try to get things as round as possible, even with bent Feloe's ..
I have an old Delta Radial Arm Saw that I use as a 'Radial Arm Mill' for Plastic things I cut at work.. I'm thinking I'll just have to make a Bigger Diameter Turn Table, and Increase the Center Distance to get the Assembled Feloe and Spokes/Hub under it.. So I can Bore the Hub Hole, and Trim the Hub Surface Flat for the Hub..
I have Lathe, Mill Etc.. all the Usual's for a T Mechanic.. My Great Grand Father was a T Mechanic.. Some of the Stuff I have now was his..
I have Many Options.. I need Help Deciding..
Thanks for Reading.. Yes I'm long Winded..
Cap
The T was the Teachers Dads.. Others have worked on this to 'Get it Ready', and now it's in my Hands to 'Give it Road Manners'.. it had NONE!
All WAS good.. Engine in and Out Checking and Adding an Oil Line, looking at how others has installed the Starter.. Put an E-Timer in it, and after three trys got the Carb to finally idle. I can now Hand Crank it Cold, Second Pull.. Life is Good..
I planned on putting Rocky Mountain Brakes on it, before I returned to to 'Larry'.. The 40 Mile trip I did with it To/From Work did a good Shake Down Tour.. Loosed the Black Painted Spokes all 'Round.. Time to Check them out..
I removed the Front Wheels ( Demountables Now ), and Put .010 Paper Between the Spokes and Got it all tight.. The Painted Black spokes on the Front Look 'OK' Under the Paint.. The 'Tenon' ( I think that is what it's called.. the Tit on the Spoke that goes into the Felo).. was a little Loose, so I coated it all with Mineral Oil, and dabed a little 'Gorilla Glue' which will expand a little as it cures.. My thoughts here are the Mineral Oil acts like a Release Agent to keep the Glue from Sticking to anything, and the Poly Foam that is Created will keep the Tenon from 'Wiggling' in the Feloe as the loads shift..
All back together, all good..
Now to tighten the Rears, and Mount the Rockys.. The Rims and Have have the 'Same Look' as the Fronts, except the Spokes are different left to right.. The Left Side spokes are 'Straight Cut', and the Right Side are '5 Deg Cut' on the Opposite Surface to the Normal 15 Deg Taper for the Center Hub.. The Fronts were all the '5 Deg Cut'.. I don't know what that Cut type is Called, But I like the 5 Deg Cut.. Makes pushing Spokes together easier.
Now the Problem.. The Rear spokes make me nervous.. they have been shimmed with .020 Aluminum between the Spokes, and the Tenon also has .015 C Cut shims on them.. Oh and they have Grain Cracks running the Length that has been filled with black paint.
So replace them right.. well I'll do the Job.. Never done it before, but always up for a challenge..
I need help understanding what spokes to get.. How to measure.. and what sort of tooling will I need to make.. IE. Am I going to have to Bore the Center Hole for the Hub?.. I'd like to, as I'll try to get things as round as possible, even with bent Feloe's ..
I have an old Delta Radial Arm Saw that I use as a 'Radial Arm Mill' for Plastic things I cut at work.. I'm thinking I'll just have to make a Bigger Diameter Turn Table, and Increase the Center Distance to get the Assembled Feloe and Spokes/Hub under it.. So I can Bore the Hub Hole, and Trim the Hub Surface Flat for the Hub..
I have Lathe, Mill Etc.. all the Usual's for a T Mechanic.. My Great Grand Father was a T Mechanic.. Some of the Stuff I have now was his..
I have Many Options.. I need Help Deciding..
Thanks for Reading.. Yes I'm long Winded..
Cap
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I forgot the Pic.. Here it is..
Thanks..
Cap
Thanks..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I see that you are in Atascaero, Ca. This is a dry climate most of the year. The problem with the old wood spoke wheels is that in dry climate, the wood dries out and shrinks. Then as the car is driven the tenons will move up and down in the felloes and will wear down. One way to do a temporary fix is to use epoxy in the tenons and put a wedge of thin veneer between the flat spots in every other spoke. The side without the bolt hole. Then use a wedge such as a piece of tongue depressor between the hub and the inner end of each spoke. This last move should be done equally all the way so the wheel will not be off center on the hub. Then use new bolts at the hub and stake them.
This fix will work if the car is not a daily driver and is checked often to see if it is loose by shaking the tire back and forth sideways.
Best fix is to get the wheel re-spoked by a professionaly wheelwright.
In the old days people used to drive the cars through puddles or small creeks to allow the spokes to swell up and self tighten.
Norm
This fix will work if the car is not a daily driver and is checked often to see if it is loose by shaking the tire back and forth sideways.
Best fix is to get the wheel re-spoked by a professionaly wheelwright.
In the old days people used to drive the cars through puddles or small creeks to allow the spokes to swell up and self tighten.
Norm
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I have 3 T’s. The first one I restored years ago and was fortunate to find some solid original wheels which I cleaned up and still use on my 1919 Roadster. The 24 Coupe and 21 Touring I had new wheels made for them using the existing steel fellows and hubs.
They turned out really nice.
I decided to spend the money and now I have some wheels that are as good as new.
Since your wheels seem to have gotten loose and dry over time it might be you best bet to have them redone. They run around 250.00 a piece and might be a little more but it would be money well spent.
They turned out really nice.
I decided to spend the money and now I have some wheels that are as good as new.
Since your wheels seem to have gotten loose and dry over time it might be you best bet to have them redone. They run around 250.00 a piece and might be a little more but it would be money well spent.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I can certainly appreciate the do-it-yourself spirit, but wheels is not the place to try and jury-rig repairs. Time to turn this project over to the professionals as has already been recommended.
Terry
Terry
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
If you go to The MTFCA home page and suppliers there are several listed. The Vintage wheel shop in Sonora Ca. has an add and contact information. He may can give you an estimate.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
These demountable wheels have steel felloes. With original wood felloe wheels I would have a wheelwright rebuild them. But with these I would buy new spokes and assemble the wheels myself with the Regan press.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
How do I know if the Spokes I'm purchasing are Straight Sided or Taper Sides.. I'm not talking about the 15 Deg Hub Taper, I'm talking about the 5 Deg Between the Spoke Faces..
I've not seen any listing that tells the Difference
I want the 5 Deg Spokes..
Cap
I've not seen any listing that tells the Difference
I want the 5 Deg Spokes..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Those 'multi-tapered' spoke centers are unusual here, but not unheard of. I had one when I first started working on model Ts about fifty years ago. It was one of the very few such model T wheels I have ever looked at myself.
I have read, that a lot of Canadian built model T wheels were that way. Canadian manufacture sourced most parts from Canadian suppliers, and it may just be that they liked doing them that way.
While there are a few significant advantages to fitting the spokes that way, Getting them right is much more difficult, and should be left to professional wheelwrights. The cutting, trimming, and fitting must be very precise.
Nearly fifteen million model Ts used four wheels each with straight tapered spokes. And they seemed to work quite well, so I wouldn't worry about switching that wheel to straight tapers. It would be much simpler, cheaper, and work just fine.
I have read, that a lot of Canadian built model T wheels were that way. Canadian manufacture sourced most parts from Canadian suppliers, and it may just be that they liked doing them that way.
While there are a few significant advantages to fitting the spokes that way, Getting them right is much more difficult, and should be left to professional wheelwrights. The cutting, trimming, and fitting must be very precise.
Nearly fifteen million model Ts used four wheels each with straight tapered spokes. And they seemed to work quite well, so I wouldn't worry about switching that wheel to straight tapers. It would be much simpler, cheaper, and work just fine.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Loose spokes can be bad news....a broken wheel can lead to disaster. A wheel that doesn't run true is irritating at the least and can lead to other problems. I've had two wheels respoked and what I got back from the wheelwright were far better than anything I could ever hope to do myself. You could spend money to acquire everything you need to do it yourself and then be unhappy with the result. I priced spokes at Langs and just the spokes for one wheel cost $149. I paid $195 to have the last wheel respoked and that included return shipping....a bargain if you ask me.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
The Kelsey 30×3 1/2 on the front of my TT have the multi taper wood spokes.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
The spokes with the tapered ends from outside to inside are an indication of Canadian origins, as Wayne pointed out. As noted, this feature does make it easier to dis assemble the wheels. I agree with others. The only real answer is to rebuild the wheels. Wedges/shims/washers/epoxy are all patch-ups which work while they work, usually not for long.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
The Multi-Taper and the .020 Aluminum Shims was getting me looking and Checking..
I'm thinking these wheels are Kelsey - Hayes.. and someone stuffed 'Standard Ford' Spokes in it, and that is what the BIG shims are all about.. However I measure 20 7/8 on most of the Inside Dimensions..
I'll get some of the Longer Spokes and see how it all fits..
Thanks for the Information.
Cap
I'm thinking these wheels are Kelsey - Hayes.. and someone stuffed 'Standard Ford' Spokes in it, and that is what the BIG shims are all about.. However I measure 20 7/8 on most of the Inside Dimensions..
I'll get some of the Longer Spokes and see how it all fits..
Thanks for the Information.
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Kelsey- Hayes was a result of a merger of the two companies, I believe in the late 1920's, so on T's, the wheels will be Kelsey or Hayes. All our Canadian sourced cars have Kelsey wheels, and these have the double taper on the hub end of the spokes. Our wheels have different length spokes to most US production, so if purchasing replacements to rebuild them yourself, you need to be certain which spokes to order for your particular set of wheels. That you have one wheel with the double taper spokes may indicate you have a mixture of wheels.
Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.
Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
This morning I stuffed all the Wood back in with .030 Gasket Paper on the Spoke Surfaces so I can get this Car out of the Work Area while I make some Tooling.. Nothing Crazy about Swatting it all Together.. Rubber Mallet, and Back up Pieces..
I measured the ID of BOTH rear Wheels, Going Directly Radially Across the Wheel, using Great grandfathers Tooling.. I don't throw nothin away.. I have a Barn!
It measure almost EXACTLY 20 and 7/8 Inches. Kelsey - Hayes are reported to be for a 20 and 13/16 wheel..
Any Clues?
Cap
I measured the ID of BOTH rear Wheels, Going Directly Radially Across the Wheel, using Great grandfathers Tooling.. I don't throw nothin away.. I have a Barn!
It measure almost EXACTLY 20 and 7/8 Inches. Kelsey - Hayes are reported to be for a 20 and 13/16 wheel..
Any Clues?
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
For one thing, I'll echo others in the angled-spoke department. I've only seen them on Kelsey wheels (and if that means it's Canadian, I'll go with that). I have never seen them on Ford, Firestone, or Hayes wheels. I am not a wheelwright but have done a couple dozen wheels and this is my limited experience.
As to replacement spokes, you are not going to find a supplier which supplies such a critter. All you will find is a variance in the available tenon diameters and two different lengths. Neither are the length you are measuring and I would suggest that A: you remeasure, and B: expect to buy the longer of the two commercially offered spokes.
Finally, loose-lug wheels are in my experience, most often Kelsey's at least when I could find a mark, and nearly always the larger of the two diameters if not Always the larger of the two diameters. I believe that your wheels are Kelsey's from all evidence presented, and they take the 20 13/16 long spoke.
You really do not want a mix of wheels on the car as the rims will all fit slightly differently and in some instances are not safely interchangeable, though they may appear to fit. You have some wheel research ahead of you and all of the information you need is at your fingertips if you want to search GOOGLE for "MTFCA demountable wheel differences".
Although it rolls off the tongue, there were no Kelsey-Hayes wheels ever supplied on a T for reasons others have mentioned. They are Ford, Kelsey, Hayes, Firestone, or other lesser aftermarket makes. Using the term Kelsey-Hayes with a supplier is a quick way to get the wrong stuff.
As to replacement spokes, you are not going to find a supplier which supplies such a critter. All you will find is a variance in the available tenon diameters and two different lengths. Neither are the length you are measuring and I would suggest that A: you remeasure, and B: expect to buy the longer of the two commercially offered spokes.
Finally, loose-lug wheels are in my experience, most often Kelsey's at least when I could find a mark, and nearly always the larger of the two diameters if not Always the larger of the two diameters. I believe that your wheels are Kelsey's from all evidence presented, and they take the 20 13/16 long spoke.
You really do not want a mix of wheels on the car as the rims will all fit slightly differently and in some instances are not safely interchangeable, though they may appear to fit. You have some wheel research ahead of you and all of the information you need is at your fingertips if you want to search GOOGLE for "MTFCA demountable wheel differences".
Although it rolls off the tongue, there were no Kelsey-Hayes wheels ever supplied on a T for reasons others have mentioned. They are Ford, Kelsey, Hayes, Firestone, or other lesser aftermarket makes. Using the term Kelsey-Hayes with a supplier is a quick way to get the wrong stuff.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
The merger of Kelsey and Hayes came at the end of the Model T era, in 1927, but I wasn't able to find any reference pinning it down to an exact date. I wonder if the crashing demand for wood wheels had anything to do with it.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Cutting spokes is one of the most boring jobs I’ve ever done in my life. But call me if I can help with questions, Bob at 903-824-1949.[/attachment]
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Hey Bob:..
Nice Tooling.. I love to watch 'How it's Made'.. To see the Tools that Make the Things..
Presently I'm Stumped on Putting Good Wood in Bent Felloe's in Someone else's Car.. Just looks bad to the Reputation.. I Found http://www.woodwheels.com/contactus.html that says he can Straighten and Re-Spoke.. I Got a Contact E-Mail in to Him, to see what is up..
Now for the Spokes on my 25 TT C Cab Project Truck in the Back yard. Think I might pester you there.
Been working on the Larger Turn Table for my 'Radial Arm Mill Saw' so I might be able to tru up Spoke-to-Hub Surfaces on the Rest of my T Wheels..
Thanks for Posting..
Cap
Nice Tooling.. I love to watch 'How it's Made'.. To see the Tools that Make the Things..
Presently I'm Stumped on Putting Good Wood in Bent Felloe's in Someone else's Car.. Just looks bad to the Reputation.. I Found http://www.woodwheels.com/contactus.html that says he can Straighten and Re-Spoke.. I Got a Contact E-Mail in to Him, to see what is up..
Now for the Spokes on my 25 TT C Cab Project Truck in the Back yard. Think I might pester you there.
Been working on the Larger Turn Table for my 'Radial Arm Mill Saw' so I might be able to tru up Spoke-to-Hub Surfaces on the Rest of my T Wheels..
Thanks for Posting..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I am not a Wheel-Wright by any stretch of the imagination. I have never done a wood felloe wheel. I have respoked 6 wheels in my life. IMHO the tooling is the key to repeatability and repeatability is everything. I’ll gladly share what I’ve learned. Call if I can assist.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Our Canadian Kelsey loose lug wheels have felloes a little less deep than the usual fixed lug wheels. This means the spokes need to be a little longer. The standard spokes for US fixed lug wheels supplied by the vendors are too short. We did not get fixed lug 23" wheels until well into the 1925 production, early 1925 models still having loose lug wheels. Only our late 25 fixed lug wheels use the shorter spokes common to US wheels.
As mentioned, you need to work out what you have, settle on four wheels the same, and make sure the rims are compatible. Some will safely mix and match. Others will not.
Allan from down under.
As mentioned, you need to work out what you have, settle on four wheels the same, and make sure the rims are compatible. Some will safely mix and match. Others will not.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
This took most of 1'0' X2" X8" Hickory plank to make these: ( and that aint cheap)...but a lot of fun
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
By Cutting the 'Taper' Last, you can make the Spokes any length you want..
Nice
Nice
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Cutting the hub angle, Cutting the inside radius, the template the lathe follows, the little jig to establish center of the tenon end.
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Topic author - Posts: 84
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
And to add to an already long Thread...
I'm working on the '24TT.. Was dads mine now.. The Rear Wheels came of a Local Parts truck that someone got tired of Fixing.. It has 600-20's on the Rear, and the Wheels and Spokes have been painted Black.. They have been on this Truck for about 12-14 years.. The Rear Spokes/Wheel on the Pass Side has been getting loose over the years.. Tried the Sprinkler Trick, and it tightened up the left side, but not the right.. Today is the Day to remove the Spokes and have a Look/See as to what is going on..
Normal Wear where the Felloe has bin sliding on the End of the Spoke.. Except, the Spoke will not move Radially, just In/Out, and almost NO Clearance for a Feeler Gauge to pass between the End of the Spoke, and the Felloe..
Popped it all apart, and started checking things out.. First they are Multi Angle Cut Spokes... Thought they were Rare, but I guess not.. And I'm thinking the Spokes were not Machined Proper, as the Gap Between the Spokes at the Hub, was about .015.. The Spokes were not 'Nested' to each other.. the were Pishing on the ends of the Spokes, and the Flange was Binding the Sides, but the 'Wood Hub Core' was not a solid piece.. And I'm thinking the Tenon End was not radiused Properly. And the End of the tenon was not transferring load properly..
For this Go'Round I stuffed .020 Gasket Paper between the Spokes at the Hub.. This Tightened thing up Nicely, and then did the Gorolla Glue Expanding Foam at the Tenon.
I'm curious about the 'Defects' I'm seeing on the Manufacture of these spokes.. Is this common?.. AND.. Multi Angle?.. Where do you get them?..
And the Fourth Shot of the T and Kids from '19
This is what T's and Grandkids are for..
Cap
I'm working on the '24TT.. Was dads mine now.. The Rear Wheels came of a Local Parts truck that someone got tired of Fixing.. It has 600-20's on the Rear, and the Wheels and Spokes have been painted Black.. They have been on this Truck for about 12-14 years.. The Rear Spokes/Wheel on the Pass Side has been getting loose over the years.. Tried the Sprinkler Trick, and it tightened up the left side, but not the right.. Today is the Day to remove the Spokes and have a Look/See as to what is going on..
Normal Wear where the Felloe has bin sliding on the End of the Spoke.. Except, the Spoke will not move Radially, just In/Out, and almost NO Clearance for a Feeler Gauge to pass between the End of the Spoke, and the Felloe..
Popped it all apart, and started checking things out.. First they are Multi Angle Cut Spokes... Thought they were Rare, but I guess not.. And I'm thinking the Spokes were not Machined Proper, as the Gap Between the Spokes at the Hub, was about .015.. The Spokes were not 'Nested' to each other.. the were Pishing on the ends of the Spokes, and the Flange was Binding the Sides, but the 'Wood Hub Core' was not a solid piece.. And I'm thinking the Tenon End was not radiused Properly. And the End of the tenon was not transferring load properly..
For this Go'Round I stuffed .020 Gasket Paper between the Spokes at the Hub.. This Tightened thing up Nicely, and then did the Gorolla Glue Expanding Foam at the Tenon.
I'm curious about the 'Defects' I'm seeing on the Manufacture of these spokes.. Is this common?.. AND.. Multi Angle?.. Where do you get them?..
And the Fourth Shot of the T and Kids from '19
This is what T's and Grandkids are for..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
More on the TT Spokes..
I was able to Pull Every Other Spoke out of the wheel of the Other Side on the TT. This is the Side that was 'Not Really Loose'. Spokes were tight on the Felloe to Hub, loose to each other in the Center of the Hub..
And the Ends of the Spokes do not Fit to the Felloe Properly
To me it does not look like the Spoke to Hub to Felloe Geometry is Proper..
I should not be able to take out every other Spoke, and have the Hub hold everything Together. On this side of the Truck, there was a .005 Gap between every Spoke to each other. This hub I put back together with .010 Card Stock between the Spokes at the Hub. The Other side required .020 Gasket Paper to get the Hub Wood Area Tight.
I'm thinking the Area of the Spoke that is actually Contacting the Felloe needs to be Larger. In my opinion the Top of the Spoke needs to have a Slight Taper leading to a Larger Radius before it dives into the 3/4 Dia Hole in the Felloe.. To increase the Area of Contact..
Again, these are different spokes than the '13 I started talking about, but this is a Spoke Learning thread.. and these are also Multi Angle Spokes.. East to Swat Together with that 5Deg Taper.. No Press Needed.. Just Wrastle around on the Floor with a Rubber Mallet..
Cap
I was able to Pull Every Other Spoke out of the wheel of the Other Side on the TT. This is the Side that was 'Not Really Loose'. Spokes were tight on the Felloe to Hub, loose to each other in the Center of the Hub..
And the Ends of the Spokes do not Fit to the Felloe Properly
To me it does not look like the Spoke to Hub to Felloe Geometry is Proper..
I should not be able to take out every other Spoke, and have the Hub hold everything Together. On this side of the Truck, there was a .005 Gap between every Spoke to each other. This hub I put back together with .010 Card Stock between the Spokes at the Hub. The Other side required .020 Gasket Paper to get the Hub Wood Area Tight.
I'm thinking the Area of the Spoke that is actually Contacting the Felloe needs to be Larger. In my opinion the Top of the Spoke needs to have a Slight Taper leading to a Larger Radius before it dives into the 3/4 Dia Hole in the Felloe.. To increase the Area of Contact..
Again, these are different spokes than the '13 I started talking about, but this is a Spoke Learning thread.. and these are also Multi Angle Spokes.. East to Swat Together with that 5Deg Taper.. No Press Needed.. Just Wrastle around on the Floor with a Rubber Mallet..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Removed by author
Last edited by Mark Gregush on Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
1925 Cut down pickup
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1925 Cut down pickup
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Mark, some learn best by experience. Sometimes that may be a bad experience. Let's hope not in this case.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
A wheel failure can cost you your life. I think its around 250 to have a wheel rebuilt so in my opinion my life is worth more than $250.00 but everyone must decide that for themselves. I just got a 1915 Touring and the front right wheel was just a little bit loose. I misted it with the garden hose for about 4 hours and it tightened up but I still check it all the time. First sign of loosing up and its going in for a rebuild.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I misted it with the garden hose for about 4 hours and it tightened up...
My fearless predictions: the sun will rise tomorrow, the oceans will remain wet, and as soon as your wheel dries out it will be loose again.
I believe I've said this before, but I'll say it again. If I have a loose wheel with wood felloes I send it to a wheelwright for rebuilding by a pro. Stutzman did mine, and they are excellent. If I have a loose wheel with steel felloes I buy new spokes and install them with the Regan press. It ain't rocket surgery.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I decided to tackle the wheels myself.. They were in too ruff of shape, to just get 'Re-Spoked'.. So I wanted to see if I could figure a few things out..
After getting all four Felloes out and apart, I sent them off to sandblast to see what I had. I have two different 'Types' of Felloes..
The First is Two 'No Name' Felloes, with Tennon Holes ranging from .505 to .510
The Second Two are Hayes Felloes July 5 192X.. Can't read the Last Number.. These Tennon Holes range from .515 to .530
I ordered 52 'Hayes' Spokes and got them in and Varnished them, Steel Wool Finish. FOUR Times.. They look good..
The Hayes Spokes I ended up with have a Tennon that is a Tapered ~.550 Diameter..
I'm presently Working on the Hayes Felloe, and have Reamed the Tennon Hole to .535 on Both of them.. These will be the Rear Wheels, and will recieve the 'Darker' Set of varnished Spokes.. With Re-Turned Tennons at .535 Diameter..
You See the Paint removed by the ream.. Good Surface..
And the Dimension of the Trial Spokes..
I cut Four of them as a trial on the Lathe..
And did a Trial Assembly of the Wheel with just Four Spokes..
And then I checked the Fit at the Felloe..
So far I'm liking what I see on the Spokes.. A Lot of work saving these Felloes.. But its a T, and I'm not just wanting to 'Toss Other Parts' at it.. I'll fix what I can..
Next is to do the trial Fit on the 'Front Felloes'.. they will be reamed to .515, and the Spokes will be Turned the same Basic Dimensions as the 'Rears', except the Mid Line Dimension of the Spoke will be .515..
Then I'll Clean up all Four Felloes, and Paint them.. After all is Cured it'll be Assembly Time..
As I mentioned, the Spokes have a Different Color.. Generally I've Separated them into Darker and Lighter.. The Darker will go in the Rear, and be .535 Tennon, and the Front will be the Lighter Set and .515 Tennons.
Cap
After getting all four Felloes out and apart, I sent them off to sandblast to see what I had. I have two different 'Types' of Felloes..
The First is Two 'No Name' Felloes, with Tennon Holes ranging from .505 to .510
The Second Two are Hayes Felloes July 5 192X.. Can't read the Last Number.. These Tennon Holes range from .515 to .530
I ordered 52 'Hayes' Spokes and got them in and Varnished them, Steel Wool Finish. FOUR Times.. They look good..
The Hayes Spokes I ended up with have a Tennon that is a Tapered ~.550 Diameter..
I'm presently Working on the Hayes Felloe, and have Reamed the Tennon Hole to .535 on Both of them.. These will be the Rear Wheels, and will recieve the 'Darker' Set of varnished Spokes.. With Re-Turned Tennons at .535 Diameter..
You See the Paint removed by the ream.. Good Surface..
And the Dimension of the Trial Spokes..
I cut Four of them as a trial on the Lathe..
And did a Trial Assembly of the Wheel with just Four Spokes..
And then I checked the Fit at the Felloe..
So far I'm liking what I see on the Spokes.. A Lot of work saving these Felloes.. But its a T, and I'm not just wanting to 'Toss Other Parts' at it.. I'll fix what I can..
Next is to do the trial Fit on the 'Front Felloes'.. they will be reamed to .515, and the Spokes will be Turned the same Basic Dimensions as the 'Rears', except the Mid Line Dimension of the Spoke will be .515..
Then I'll Clean up all Four Felloes, and Paint them.. After all is Cured it'll be Assembly Time..
As I mentioned, the Spokes have a Different Color.. Generally I've Separated them into Darker and Lighter.. The Darker will go in the Rear, and be .535 Tennon, and the Front will be the Lighter Set and .515 Tennons.
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I would suggest that you assemble the wheels with the felloes in primer and the tenons on the spokes with no more than than an oil/sealer. Heavy coats of paint/urethane on the felloes/spokes Will make assembly more difficult and will give all ares of contact a built in lubricant to aid in later loosening at the interfaces. The old timers did know what they were doing! Even today's crop of wheel builders assemble their wheels without finishes.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
If you are making your own spokes AND can assemble them AND disassemble them with no damage to the tenon, then the tenon was almost certainly too small
The press fit of 12 spokes into the felloe is a hellacious force and the tenons are squeezed into the hole and re-swell once installed...there typically is no "getting them back out" that can be accomplished
The press fit of 12 spokes into the felloe is a hellacious force and the tenons are squeezed into the hole and re-swell once installed...there typically is no "getting them back out" that can be accomplished
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
It will be interesting to see if these spokes come out with ease.. These are Four Spokes that did not pass inspection, and are now 'Trial Fit Pieces'..
Here is a shot of the Spoke shortly after assembly. It took a while for them to find Home.. about 2 to 3 minutes.. This was taken about a minute into the seating process.
Thinking about your comment.. If these come out with no scars, I'll increase the Diameter by ~.005, and reduce the Taper to 2 Deg. Ruffly end up with the same Root Diameter before the Radius, but with a 2 Deg Taper rather than a 3, for more contact area in the Tennon Hole
Thank you for that Information Scott..
Cap
Here is a shot of the Spoke shortly after assembly. It took a while for them to find Home.. about 2 to 3 minutes.. This was taken about a minute into the seating process.
Thinking about your comment.. If these come out with no scars, I'll increase the Diameter by ~.005, and reduce the Taper to 2 Deg. Ruffly end up with the same Root Diameter before the Radius, but with a 2 Deg Taper rather than a 3, for more contact area in the Tennon Hole
Thank you for that Information Scott..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Experience is what you gain, Just after you need it..
A Factory .550 tenon will fit nicely into a .530 Hole.. And a .550 Tenon will fit just about with the same squeeze into a .510 Hole.. AND the removal effort is just about the same in a .530 Hole as a .510 hole, with about the same scaring and shaving on each size hole VS Tennon..
SO, a .550 Factory Tennon is Suitable for a warn out 1/2 inch Felloe.. No Need to Round them or use Oversized Tennons.. untill you get about <.020 Compression on the Tennon.. I do not know what the MAX Squeeze is you can put on a Tennon, before Damage Occurs.. Any body Know?.
Got it.. It's wood, don't over think it..
Cap
A Factory .550 tenon will fit nicely into a .530 Hole.. And a .550 Tenon will fit just about with the same squeeze into a .510 Hole.. AND the removal effort is just about the same in a .530 Hole as a .510 hole, with about the same scaring and shaving on each size hole VS Tennon..
SO, a .550 Factory Tennon is Suitable for a warn out 1/2 inch Felloe.. No Need to Round them or use Oversized Tennons.. untill you get about <.020 Compression on the Tennon.. I do not know what the MAX Squeeze is you can put on a Tennon, before Damage Occurs.. Any body Know?.
Got it.. It's wood, don't over think it..
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Opening up between the spokes at the hub illustrates that timber shrinks as it dries/ages. This shrinkage is less along the grain than across it, so spoke will open up at the hub while remaining relatively firm in the felloe.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
I was checking the tire pressure on my '17 T in preparation for next weeks Michigan Jamboree when I noticed a few loose spokes on my left front wheel. Fortunately, about a year ago I had Stutzman re-spoke a wheel just to have a spare. Taking my own advice from previous posts, I removed the offending wheel and replaced it with the spare. Looking closer at the felloe, I saw that the tenon was worn to a little nub and appeared to be of dubious condition. One good sideways swack and it could have been knocked loose. The spoke themselves looked fine, so it's obvious a dangerous condition can be hidden from view. "Better safe than sorry" takes on a new meaning when you're facing the possibility of a wheel failure.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
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1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Follow up..
Ends up I have TWO kelsey Fellows, and Two Hayes Fellows..
The Rims interchange between the Two Different Mfg.
I was able to get a bunch of 'Kelsey Hayes' Spokes and get them all Varnished up.. Actually used Urethane.. Four Coats Sanded and Steel Wooled between Coats..
I used the John Regan Spoke Press and Put together all four of the Fellows after I had them Sanblasted and I painted them.
I ended up choosing to 'Silver Solder' closed the 'Oversized' Fellows Holes.. I had rounded them up to, and I tried four of the 'Did not pass the QC Test Spokes' that I had prepped up.. And per Scott's description they went in too easy.. To fix that I silver soldered them a little, then reamed them back out to .500. I took 12 spokes and did a 'Do or Die' trial.. They were .555 tenons in a .500 hole . It was a fight, but based upon the description that Scott gave, it felt correct.
I pulled all 48 spokes in and they are now on the T.
Cap
Ends up I have TWO kelsey Fellows, and Two Hayes Fellows..
The Rims interchange between the Two Different Mfg.
I was able to get a bunch of 'Kelsey Hayes' Spokes and get them all Varnished up.. Actually used Urethane.. Four Coats Sanded and Steel Wooled between Coats..
I used the John Regan Spoke Press and Put together all four of the Fellows after I had them Sanblasted and I painted them.
I ended up choosing to 'Silver Solder' closed the 'Oversized' Fellows Holes.. I had rounded them up to, and I tried four of the 'Did not pass the QC Test Spokes' that I had prepped up.. And per Scott's description they went in too easy.. To fix that I silver soldered them a little, then reamed them back out to .500. I took 12 spokes and did a 'Do or Die' trial.. They were .555 tenons in a .500 hole . It was a fight, but based upon the description that Scott gave, it felt correct.
I pulled all 48 spokes in and they are now on the T.
Cap
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Re: Spokes, School me Please!
Cap, the second photo is of a the Kelsey felloe that is supposed to take loose lug rim. That slot pressed into the inside diameter of the felloe is the land on which the longer leg of the loose lug engages. The depression in the outside of the outer edge of the felloe is not supposed to be there. It has been caused by the incorrect fitting of a Hayes fixed lug rim. The 'foot' on the Hayes lug has been forced over the felloe, and likely the rim has stood off the face of the felloe rather more than it should have. For such a combination to work, you would be heavily relying on the four lug bolts retaining tension. The rim will have no contact with the felloe other than at the jammed feet .
In a correct set-up, the Kelsey loose lug rim wedges onto the outer land on the felloe all the way around the wheel. All the four lug bolts do is hold that wedging effect.
Likewise, on a Hayes felloe, the rim is designed to wedge on the inner land on the felloe, the four lug bolts just maintaining the wedging effect.
It is this wedging effect which transmits the drive from wheel to rim/tyre. It is this wedging effect that is compromised by the incorrect mixture of incompatible parts. Sure, they will 'work', in some circumstances, but in others they can be dangerous. Mixing loose lug rims/fellos and fixed lug rims on the same wheel is one of these circumstances.
Stay safe.
Allan from down under.
In a correct set-up, the Kelsey loose lug rim wedges onto the outer land on the felloe all the way around the wheel. All the four lug bolts do is hold that wedging effect.
Likewise, on a Hayes felloe, the rim is designed to wedge on the inner land on the felloe, the four lug bolts just maintaining the wedging effect.
It is this wedging effect which transmits the drive from wheel to rim/tyre. It is this wedging effect that is compromised by the incorrect mixture of incompatible parts. Sure, they will 'work', in some circumstances, but in others they can be dangerous. Mixing loose lug rims/fellos and fixed lug rims on the same wheel is one of these circumstances.
Stay safe.
Allan from down under.