1927 Touring, tranny is loud

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bmklawt
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1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:07 pm

I have a 1927 Touring, my first Model T, finally got it running and drove it for the first time today, drove it out of the garage and back in, stalled it numerous times, this is not as easy as I thought it might be.
Anyway from my very limited encounters with Model T's I'd say the transmission sound normal with the whirling of the gears but it seems very loud to me, maybe its because I am in the cockpit instead of standing 15' away as one goes by me, not being a Model T guy and having nothing to compare it to, how do I tell if the transmission sound normal or not, I realize this is a vague question but if anyone has any insight for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Bruce


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:26 pm

they can be loud in low and reverse. They can even whine a little in neutral.

rebuilt transmissions with new bushings can in fact be very loud

if you are going faster than about 7-8 MPH in low, you're going too fast in low. If you make it to the middle of an intersection from a dead stop and are still in low, you waited too long. A quick shift to high (which will silence everything) and a gentle application of throttle until about 15 MPH and then do what you want from there.

You can rev the daylights out of it, and some do, but it will take so long for the engine to slow down to make an easy shift, all of the extra speed (if you can call it that) will have bled back off.

your driving will mature with experience and your worries and jumpiness will slowly fade. My first "big trip" was about 5 miles. I think I lost 5 years of life just in worry. Trust me, it gets better.

And finally, a "T" clutch is not something to be slipped. A seasoned driver will be able to get the car fully engaged into low gear from a standing stop, at idle, in a properly tuned and adjusted "T". Sadly many if not the vast majority rely on reving, noise and lots of drama to get rolling, and insist that's the way a "T" should be driven. Um, no.

Have fun. Having the right teacher or at least understanding what's going on inside and using care, will lead to a lifetime of good driving habits and many miles of touring success. The wrong teacher and poor habits will lead to transmission drum replacement.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Erik Barrett » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:58 pm

Scott said it perfectly. These things can be noisy when there is nothing wrong with them. Some sets of gears are just noisier than others. Having all control parts adjusted properly and driving it as it was designed for are keys to success.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by It's Bill » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:06 am

Scott, wish I had read your reply a couple of years ago. I am still figuring this stuff out! Cheers, Bill


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:16 am

If you conclude it is truly excessively noisy, pull the inspection cover. Check each tripple gear with a large screwdriver for excessive slop.(worn tripple gear bushings) Its an easy way to ease your mind.
From my experience, transmissions have a noise life cycle. Rebuilt the are typically noisy until the gears re mesh. Next the quiet down to very pleasant. Lastly the get noisier & noisier- thats the bushings/gears developing excessive wear, eventually chewing the gear teeth.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:57 am

The best advice I can give you, is to check out the Chapters of the Model T Ford Club Int'l., especially the one based in Holland, MI.

https://www.modelt.org/chapter-listings.html

I'm certain they will be happy to hear from you and will listen to your transmission and give their thoughts. At least half of the fun of these cars is the people who are involved in them. Get in contact and double your fun! :)


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by John kuehn » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:15 am

When starting out in the Model T hobby it’s a transition from 100 year old technology to today’s modern auto technology!
Model T’s aren’t quiet like today’s engines are. That’s something to get use to and they don’t have real brakes either!
The HP rating of a Model T is around 20 hp. Today’s cars are 150 hp + and more.
But they are fun to tinker with as we all know!


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:30 am

I have emailed the local chapter in Holland Michigan a few times and have not received a response, I joined MTFCA about a month ago and when I joined it said they would email me a confirmation that I have not received, I emailed them a few times also with no response.
Bruce


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by John kuehn » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:07 am

Hi again Bruce
If you can’t get a hold of the local chapter try the one in Piquette MI. I don’t know how far they are from you but they do have a web page on the Model T chapters list. You can find the chapters list from the MTFCA home page. It’s the only from MI that has one listed. Maybe they can help you out.
Here in Texas people belong to chapters that aren’t always the closest to them. Some are more active than others. Some don’t belong to one at all.
Hope this can help you!


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:00 am

I agree with Scott about 7-8 mph when starting on level, however, there are some hills where you must get it going faster before it will go in high. If you live in hilly country, a Ruckstell or other reduction type gear box in addition to the original T transmission makes starting on a hill much easier.
It is normal to get some noise in low or reverse, but if it is noisy in high, you could have a problem in the rear axle. Noises in the rear end seem to be transferred through the enclosed driveshaft to the front of the car and might sound like transmission noises.
With a T transmission, you should drive in such a way that the pedal is pressed all the way down or all the way back, but not slipping. Slipping will overheat the drums and wear out the bands very fast. Overheated drums lead to cracked drums which can sometimes cause major damage to more than just the drum.
Norm

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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by perry kete » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:39 am

Check ALL your fluid levels to make sure they are at the correct level and makes sure ALL your universal joints and oil cups are full also.
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:44 pm

I think these are the triple gears, there is no noticeable rotary motion but I can push them back to front a little, is this normal, see the video.
https://youtu.be/pKf8mHCEjAM


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:54 pm

Rotary(excessive bushing wear) would be a problem. In & out is expected. Check all 3.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:18 pm

All 3 have little to no rotary play at least nothing I can see with my eye, just the little bit of end play as seen in the video


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:32 pm

bmklawt wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:18 pm
All 3 have little to no rotary play at least nothing I can see with my eye, just the little bit of end play as seen in the video
Have a seasoned T guy look & hear her. They are by nature noisy.

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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by FundyTides » Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:01 pm

Like my Doctor told me a while ago, there is no "normal". The real measurement of health is how different any measurement (heart rate, blood pressure, lung sounds) is from what is typical for the particular patient. I think Model T's are similar. After rebuilding my transmission and axle in my 27 T the sounds are different, not worse or better. If the sounds in yours are not extreme and don't change over a short period of time, you are probably ok. As suggested get an opinion from a seasoned Model T driver. If you think T transmissions are noisy, try listening to 40's Ford truck with a non-synchro 4 speed. You can hear the whine of 2nd gear from a quarter mile away. When I was a kid, we had an ice-man that drove one and even at 5 or 6 years old, I knew when he was coming from the whine of his transmission.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:19 pm

Well I'm convinced there is something wrong with my transmission so I found a mechanic close to me and was going to trailer my car over there to have him give it a test drive and give me me his thoughts on the noise. I drove the car around last Sunday for a few blocks but felt it was mighty slow getting up it speed in first gear, maybe, maybe not, it was my first time driving a T, anyway today when I tried to load this on the trailer I could barely get the front wheels up the ramp and when the back wheels hit the ramp it just didn't have enough to get up on the trailer. Had the hand brake straight up as much throttle as I dared give it and the pedal to the floor, noticed the pedal would get stuck when I pushed on it that hard. I gave up after two attempts and when putting the car back in garage first gear seems to be about nothing, with the hand brake straight up it will creep forward and that's how I got it back in the garage.
I'm going to attempt to go through the service manual tomorrow and see if I can adjust the parking brake and bands.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:44 pm

You need to adjust low band tighter - that T ought to crawl up on that trailer.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:59 pm

pay attention to what Steve said...adjust the bands according to the service manual (the low pedal should ride just off the floor when locked up in low).

The pedal locking down is a classically loose low band...either loose and can be tightened, or rotted cotton and nothing left to adjust

abandon the notion of adjusting the parking brake right now...only work one thing at a time based on symptoms and right now you have a symptom of low band needing adjusting

if your mechanic is a modern mechanic, I would recommend that everyone step back and review the ford service manual before attempting any adjustments or repairs. What a T obviously needs will not necessarily be obvious to a modern mechanic and a lot of havoc can be created in a small amount of time and within a small space if guesswork combines with modern sensibilities.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:23 am

Scott_Conger wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:59 pm
pay attention to what Steve said...adjust the bands according to the service manual (the low pedal should ride just off the floor when locked up in low).

The pedal locking down is a classically loose low band...either loose and can be tightened, or rotted cotton and nothing left to adjust

abandon the notion of adjusting the parking brake right now...only work one thing at a time based on symptoms and right now you have a symptom of low band needing adjusting

if your mechanic is a modern mechanic, I would recommend that everyone step back and review the ford service manual before attempting any adjustments or repairs. What a T obviously needs will not necessarily be obvious to a modern mechanic and a lot of havoc can be created in a small amount of time and within a small space if guesswork combines with modern sensibilities.
Heed Scotts words. Especially regarding your modern mechanic.

Model T's are VERY different automobiles than you are used to. They require a very different set of skills to properly operate & a lot of tinkering.(all part of the fun) You have much to learn. Very good you have the manual. Props. Steeve Jelf web site - dauntlessgeezer has a lot of good & entertaining information including reference materials. Excellent for new guys. Finding a local seasoned T guy would be invaluable for a half a day session. Beer & pizza is good bait. We all love to eat.

Regarding your band adjustment. The second thing to do is tighten the band adjuster. The first is to determine if you have enough good band material to adjust. Quick & dirty. Pull the floor boards. See T1 manual. On the right side of the hogs head(USA car) is a large adjusting screw with a 15/16 lock nut. Look @ the amount of threads after the nut. If there is aprox 1/2" or less, bands are very worn. Band job. If you have aprox 1" , lots of band left. Pulling the inspection cover & visually inspecting the bands's condition will need to be done soon also.
Proceed to adjust as follows:
Loosen lock nut. Start car. Screw in adjuster until you start to hear the tripple gears start to get nosier. Back off 1/2 turn. Re- lock the large nut. Your low band is now @ its optimal setting.
If you need new bands(very likely) T1 manual! Use cotton or scandia. NO KEVLAR. Kevlar is unforgiving & ONLY for the advanced operator. Much destruction can take place with a little mistake. You will go thru your new bands fairly quickly as you learn to drive. The second set will last much longer.

Let the fun begin.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by jab35 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:19 am

And check the pedal cams. Your description sounds to me like the low cam is badly worn.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bron-hertford-nc » Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:16 pm

Before adjusting low band make sure you disconnect the slow speed connection clevis (pull the pin) ( Lang PN 3445-7S). You then adjust for full pedal and floor board clearance. A locked low gear pedal is also an indication that the slow speed connection is about to go over center and then you've got a locked low gear and can hope there is nobody in front of you while you reach down and pull the pedal back.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/267047/309822.jpg


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:35 pm

I will respectfully disagree with Bron

The adjustment of the clevis is part of setting things up right, but disconnecting and then adjusting it prior to setting low band for proper actuation is a recipe for real trouble.

I will bet money that 50% of readers of this forum either have not made this adjustment or do not understand (even with diagrams) what exactly is happening or how things are interconnected. It's adjustment is entirely unrelated with a hopelessly slipping low band. It is certainly not something to casually start adjusting without understanding what it does and specifically having a failure related to maladjustment. This is not you. Being new to Model T's I highly suggest that you leave that linkage alone until or unless you find the car trying to drag you through a red light when in neutral, or trying to pin you to the garage wall when hand cranking.

The fact that the pedal is trying to lock up due to the linkage going over center is not a function of a failure of linkage adjustment but when combined with the description of a T unable to get onto a trailer is simply an additional symptom of a worn/failed band.

Once the band is adjusted AND ONLY AFTER THE BAND IS ADJUSTED, should the linkage be looked at and ONLY if there is a now a problem with neutral. Since the car ran long enough to wear the band out, I think it is highly unlikely that the linkage is far out of adjustment if at all.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:44 pm

The mechanic I found is an antique auto mechanic, I found him after watching some YouTube videos of him rebuilding a Model T transmission, is it against the rules to name them?
FYI, the clutch pedal was getting stuck on the floor board.
The band adjusting bolt on my transmission only show about 1/4" thread so I guess I get to learn how to reline the bands, I believe my bands have the detachable ears so I am going to attempt to change them through the inspection cover. What is the difference between cotton and Scandinavia band linings is one better than the other? Is here anything else I should do while I'm in there, replace the clutch spring? If I took the hogs head off is there anything I could inspect to try and narrow down why the transmission is so loud, if in fact it actually is loud.
What tools do I need for this job?

I appreciate the help immensely,
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by RajoRacer » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:01 pm

Well - just looking at your posted photos, I see several issues that were clearly of "shade tree" workmanship - hate to be a Debbie Downer but the bands are pretty much used up, the clutch throw-out fork has been bolted on & the slo-speed linkage is on backwards - for starters !


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:13 pm

you need the '26-27 bands, not the earlier ones
I've never needed the band installation tool, myself, but I've never changed bands through the transmission door (always take hog's head off)
band clamp with wrench is a cruel hoax. It cannot be used with the hog's head installed, and if used with the hog's head off, the hog's head will be held off by the clamp and the clamp will be hopelessly trapped (use zip ties or wire)
I don't think you've yet found evidence that the clevis needs to be replaced...
the nut/washer tool is clever but I find it to be kind of clumsy and it scares me as much as just using fingers and dentil floss

pay attention to Steve Tomasso's comments. You have some work to do, but it's part of the T experience. You're finding out that when someone says: "he!!, any blacksmith could work on 'em", that pretty much every blacksmith in America has likely worked on your car already, in a desperate attempt to find where the horseshoe goes.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:45 am

Get a new set of 3 band return springs. They are typically shrunk from use. Washers are not stock. See manual. Low drum lining is gone to the metal band. It has scraped the drum. A little smoothing may be useful with emery cloth. Prevent the filings from getting into the trans. Output plate bolts wired in pairs. Not over the fingers.
Clutch spring can be changed with the hogs head off, but not easily. Rear end has to be pulled back or motor moved forward. It is a job best done with the engine out & pan off. If you were getting good lock up to high, why change it? Lot of work.
Were it mine, I would pull the cover & rivet the clutch arms as per original.(no bolts) Dont want any looseness. Check low pedal cams for wear. Lean toward replacement. Now's the time to replace if necessary. At least insure rivet is tight. Low pedal to clutch arm hole is typically very worn. Braze it up & re-drill to tighten fit. Replace worn clevis & L bolt.
Scandia is a harder, treated lining. Wears better. Popular choice. Plain cotton, softer, but wears well IF you operate correctly.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:09 am

PS while you are at it, O-ring all 3 petal cams.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:17 pm

Where do I find band lining for a 1927, I can't seem to find them, what about wood bands?
Things I need to do, rivet on the clutch arms, Low pedal to clutch arm hole is very worn, braze and re-drill, replace worn clevis and L bolt, new O rings, new band return springs, tighten low speed notch thingy.
Can you tell from the pictures whats right and more importantly what wrong and needs attention.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:20 pm

More pictures
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:52 pm



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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:49 pm

Ouch

yep, that's gonna be loud

unfortunately that much slop pretty much coincides with the level of workmanship and choices made by the previous mechanic as displayed in the immediately preceding photos.

You have your work cut out for you, and you're going to get to know this car much sooner and to a more intimate level than you ever planned, I'm sure.

Given the evidence you've provided to date, it is clear to me that any specific, actionable advice prior to a teardown would be premature prior to total discovery and analysis of the individual parts

The good news is that next time you tell the forum that something is noisy, it will make the hair on everyone's neck stand up in horror and not be dismissive of the comment (as I was).
Scott Conger

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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:47 am

So is the slop in the drums as seen in the video not normal


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:18 am

Look for the source of the slop. Look @ the driven gear. (See T1 manual) While you wiggle the drums. Is it loose? Is/are any of the riveted drum gears loose? Are drum gears excessively worn?


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 pm

The driven gear and and triple gears are all worn.
Will I hurt anything if I put new band linings on, fix what I can without taking the engine out and drive this until winter, I'll rebuild this in the winter with new drums and gears and Id like to put the missing magneto back in so I can run this off coils. Its running off a distributor now so I am missing everything at the moment to run this off a magneto.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:45 pm

That seems a reasonable plan if you drive low easily and avoid very hard braking. Understand that the gears are likely worn beyond the hardened zone and wear will continue, and with the loss of cross section on the teeth, there is a somewhat elevated tooth-breakage risk.

While the hog's head is off, you'll want to do three things:

1. weld up and ream open the super-worn hole on the low pedal linkage extension
2. Remove the low speed notch pin, ream the pedal shaft to clean up the hole as necessary and do the same to the notch and rerivet it all together with a custom pin for a solid and certain action when stepping on the pedal. While it's apart, you should evaluate the notch and ramp for minimal necessary dead-band so that the high clutch will disengage properly and still start the ramp to low band with minimal pedal travel after high speed is released. Often times there is excessive rotational input to the pedal before any sideways "squeezing" takes place, leading the owner to run the low band far too tight out of necessity. In my opinion, failure to do this critical repair prior to installing Kevlar bands is a leading cause of drum breakage (I know you're not going to kevlar, but the fact remains that this very important aspect of repairs is more often than not, ignored). Also take John's advice and put an o-ring under the ramp at reassembly to stem some of the leaks.
3. bands are massively distorted. Search MTFCA forum for "how to install band material" to see how/why bands need to be ROUND and untwisted. Finally, install them without distorting them. This means, do not just push them over the drum like a C-clip and bend them up. Snake them around the pan down at the brake drum and spring open gently and only enough to rotate over the brake drum and then slide forward (installing reverse first, low second, and brake last)

the rest can wait for winter

the condition of the drums will mean a curtailed life for the bands, so your plan for remediation soon is a good one. Install a transmission screen and hope to catch the bulk of the fuzz that will come off the bands, and when you DO finally service this thing, plan on a roto-rooter job on the internal oil line as it for certain has some cotton in it, limiting oil flow to the front
Scott Conger

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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:56 pm

I would do that. Fix the hogs head & pedal wear & rivet issues. Worn gears driven a little more wont hurt. If low pedal has a bunch of lost motion before cam engages, replace those cams. O ring under cam plates. 5/8 id x 7/8 od 1/8 cross. Counter bore with 7/8" end-mill. A large countersink can be used also.
Bands: Last set I got of cotton came from Bob's. That was when scandia was not available. You might talk to Dave @ Chaffins on options.
Wood bands: Some guys like them, I do not. I have removed more sets upon customer request than installed. My experience is they chatter & dont engage friendly. There may be a way to make them work, like adding some cut oil slots, I dont know. Nobody has convinced me the effort would be worth it.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:33 pm

An observation: The severe wear I see is on the reverse drum gear. Undoubtedly From the previous owner using reverse as a brake. Contrary to the myth, Using reverse as a brake is a really bad practice. All that braking force goes thru the planetary system instead of a brake drum.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:41 pm

The whole transmission looks like it needs to be rebuilt. You might also look at swap meets for a good 26-27 transmission which you could swap for this one. Otherwise you need a lot of work and possibly an experienced machinist to do at least some of the work. I would suggest you purchase (if you don't already have) the book published by the club, "Transmission" which gives step by step instructions for inspecting and rebuilding the transmission. Good Luck,
Norm


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:59 pm

bmklawt wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 pm
The driven gear and and triple gears are all worn.
Will I hurt anything if I put new band linings on, fix what I can without taking the engine out and drive this until winter, I'll rebuild this in the winter with new drums and gears and Id like to put the missing magneto back in so I can run this off coils. Its running off a distributor now so I am missing everything at the moment to run this off a magneto.
Dont be so quick to get rid of your distributor. Doing so will cost some performance & add a bunch of regular tinkering to your operating.
Its about what you want. Take this time & do your homework on the subject.

There are those who claim its not a model T if you dont hear the coils buzz. You dont hear them on a 26/7 anyway.

There are 2 distinct groups regarding distributors VS coils. Like north vs south.
A few run a STOCK timer & coil system. More guys claim to be stock, but cheat with an I or E timer. A whole lot more guys cheat a little with other type timers. A timer system & coils need constant maintenance & adjustment.
3 of my 4 T's will always have a distributor. I drive them long distances & high speeds. With #4, a 14 roadster, I decided to take up the challenge.
I do enjoy that sweet sweet song of the coils hitting @ a low idle. I do cheat a little. I have lower expectations also. (I have been threatening myself to try a distributor as a performance experiment.) I dont usually go long distances (Day trips primarily) & I am happy cruising @ 40-50. Besides, over 55, the windshield flings opens and the passenger air bag gets noisy.

Best of luck with your new toy.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:16 pm

The coils and timer are easy to maintain, and if you have a good rear main bearing and newly wound magneto coils, your ignition system is almost foolproof. If an original timer, it will need some cleaning and oil from time to time, but with a New Day or Anderson timer which do the same thing as the original timer, little maintenance. I don't know about the e timer or I timer, but those who use them like them. There again, I would recommend you carry a spare regular timer to swap, just in case.
I attend many tours, and many people who use distributors have trouble with them and end up on the trouble truck. If you use a distributor, you are on your own, because there are so many kinds and also so many things which can go wrong, such as the typical problems with rotor, cap, points and condenser as well as worn bushings and also problems with the drive gears. So if you use a distributor, be sure to have some spare parts along because there are so many kinds which are not interchangeable and parts are not always available at Pep Boys or Auto Zone. However, if you don't have the coils or working magneto, you could wait until you pull the engine and transmission for something else to replace the distributor with a magneto.
Norm


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:49 pm

I run an ANCO timer and clean it every few years out of pure guilt. Until recently, they received frequent and heavy use. Two of my 4 cars are stem winders and trust me, if they needed constant maintenance, they would get it.

Ford Roller timers are another story, and perhaps every single other ANCO other than the 4 I have are more needy, I don't know.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:57 pm

bmklawt wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:17 pm
Where do I find band lining for a 1927, I can't seem to find them, what about wood bands?
Things I need to do, rivet on the clutch arms, Low pedal to clutch arm hole is very worn, braze and re-drill, replace worn clevis and L bolt, new O rings, new band return springs, tighten low speed notch thingy.
Can you tell from the pictures whats right and more importantly what wrong and needs attention.
Re band lining 26-7. I had not realized there was a shortage.
Chaffins last catalog showed 26-7 scandia available.
Talk to Dave down there. If he cant fix you up easily, have him ask Mark Chaffin(new owner) if he might have some in his personal parts stash for sale. Better do it quick.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:48 pm

Well I'm starting to put this back together, I did installed wood band linings.
I have a question though about the clutch finger adjustment, I've read there should be a clearance of 13/16” between your clutch shift and the drive plate shaft flange, I measured it at the 3 fingers and come up with .850, .885, .890, should I set this back to 13/16" (.8125) or leave it about where its at and even out the numbers?
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:21 pm

In the neighborhood of 13/16" seems to be sufficient for a starting point - as long as all three fingers have equal pressure & distance.

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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:40 am

The 13/16 is ballpark because you only have one slot to work with. That measurement is to the face of the drive plate, not the rivet head. Once you get that base set, and drive the car, then if you need to adjust because of slippage, turn each one in to increase pressure, the same amount. 1/2 turn, full turn, etc. You may never get an exact same reading between all 3, but you want them all close.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:09 pm

Mark Gregush wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:40 am
The 13/16 is ballpark because you only have one slot to work with. That measurement is to the face of the drive plate, not the rivet head. Once you get that base set, and drive the car, then if you need to adjust because of slippage, turn each one in to increase pressure, the same amount. 1/2 turn, full turn, etc. You may never get an exact same reading between all 3, but you want them all close.
Something I commonly do is add a second slot in each set screw & 90 degrees. Allows for a more even pressure adjustment @ 90 V/S 180 degrees.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:52 pm

Is being within .010" close enough, I measure .020" on 1/2 turn of the screw which is about right for a 3/8-24 screw, I'm assuming this is fine, Ford built a lot of cars this way, just checking


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:29 pm

Just thought I'd post some pictures so you guys can correct me if I'm doing something wrong.
This was my first ever attempt at brazing.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:35 pm

You're committed to braze now, but I wire weld this sort of stuff.

In any event, you're going to be happy you got all of this stuff corrected before the inevitable on-the-road failure occurred. Be darn sure those bands are round and are completely free on the drums when released 5/16" or so. Looks like you're going to run wood, so I have revised/removed my band caution.

Your workmanship looks nicely neat and orderly...that's nice
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:47 pm

little bit of progress today
Is there a way to see if the clutch pedal and hand brake lever are working right without running the engine?
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:58 pm

You assembled & set the brake cam & pedal connection according to the T! MANUAL. With the parking brake lever back, you should be able to wiggle the 3 clutch fingers.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:55 pm

Okay I got this thing back together and drove out of the garage and back in, will take her for a run tomorrow.
So this thread started because I thought my transmission was loud, I have been able to here a few Model T's running and and my transmission was defiantly loud, mine sounded like the others I heard just much louder, after putting on wood bands, new springs and some other misc stuff my transmission is still loud but not nearly as loud as it was, I can defiantly hear a lot of gear noise now when I put it in first gear, that noise must have been muffled before, I'm putting in new drums and gears this winter.
Question, I've read if the transmission slips, tighten the clutch and/or adjust the bands, I've driven this car maybe a few hundred yards and never learned to drive a stick, how do I know if it is slipping?


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:21 pm

bmklawt wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:55 pm
Okay I got this thing back together and drove out of the garage and back in, will take her for a run tomorrow.
So this thread started because I thought my transmission was loud, I have been able to here a few Model T's running and and my transmission was defiantly loud, mine sounded like the others I heard just much louder, after putting on wood bands, new springs and some other misc stuff my transmission is still loud but not nearly as loud as it was, I can defiantly hear a lot of gear noise now when I put it in first gear, that noise must have been muffled before, I'm putting in new drums and gears this winter.
Question, I've read if the transmission slips, tighten the clutch and/or adjust the bands, I've driven this car maybe a few hundred yards and never learned to drive a stick, how do I know if it is slipping?
Clutch : When you go from low to high. If you throttle & the engine speeds up, but you are not moving faster.. Correctly adjusted stock T clutch has a little bit of "controlled slip" intended for a smooth transition from low to hi. If , when in high, you can speed up the engine(snap the throttle) & not feel the acceleration the slipping should be obvious.

Low band: You have your foot hard down on low pedal & dont feel a solid lockup.
You might want to review the manual. It describes these conditions & solutions.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:49 pm

Maybe it's time to give up until after I rebuild the transmission, I've only driven this a few miles total, today I maybe got in a half mile drive and this is what my screen and magnet look like after the half mile drive.
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:38 pm

Is the screen and magnet a new addition? Or have they been there the whole time?
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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:57 pm

What is that stuff? Carbon, old gasket goo? If this the fist time this motor has seen a screen, I would expect this collection of decades of stuff that floats around a motor. Dont panic yet. The metal shavings are more concerning. Clean the magnet & go again.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by bmklawt » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:55 pm

I've had the car out out on the road 5 times, after the first ride, just in my driveway, I took the hogs head off and installed new bands the last 3 times I've driven it I have had the trans cover of and cleaned between each ride to make band and clutch adjustments.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Allan » Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:37 am

Bruce, the loud gear noise may be down to a number of things. Your transmission drums are 26-7 model types, as indicated by the wide brake drum. A 26-7 transmission typically has one piece triple gears, which gave a gap between each gear, resulting in narrower teeth on the gears. When these wear, they wear a corresponding register on the drum gears.
On your transmission, the narrow toothed one piece triple gears have been replaced with earlier wide tooth three piece gears. This will mean meshing problems and likely a deal of noise until the gears get to know each other. You will have the wide teeth engaging on the high spots where the narrow gears did not run.
Gearheads with more experience than me indicate that the earlier three piece gears are much harder than the later one piece items. That said, it is unusual to see such extensive wear on these gears as your show. It may be the case that the rivets holding the gears together are loose and that allows mis-timing of the gears. All this will be revealed when you tear it down, but the damage may well be extensive.

Allan from down under.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by speedytinc » Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:21 am

Allan wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:37 am
Bruce, the loud gear noise may be down to a number of things. Your transmission drums are 26-7 model types, as indicated by the wide brake drum. A 26-7 transmission typically has one piece triple gears, which gave a gap between each gear, resulting in narrower teeth on the gears. When these wear, they wear a corresponding register on the drum gears.
On your transmission, the narrow toothed one piece triple gears have been replaced with earlier wide tooth three piece gears. This will mean meshing problems and likely a deal of noise until the gears get to know each other. You will have the wide teeth engaging on the high spots where the narrow gears did not run.
Gearheads with more experience than me indicate that the earlier three piece gears are much harder than the later one piece items. That said, it is unusual to see such extensive wear on these gears as your show. It may be the case that the rivets holding the gears together are loose and that allows mis-timing of the gears. All this will be revealed when you tear it down, but the damage may well be extensive.

Allan from down under.
Looking back @ the straight down shot of the tripple gears, I see the later 1 piece gears. There is a gap between gears. The early gears have no gap at all. Might want to take another look.


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Re: 1927 Touring, tranny is loud

Post by Allan » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:33 am

You are correct John. My apologies for misleading anyone The early photo looking down on the flywheel clearly shows one piece gears. The wear on these is typical for such gears. That is one reason I prefer to use the riveted three piece gears.

Allan from down under.

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