Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
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Topic author - Posts: 190
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Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
When I switch from battery to magneto there is a constant clicking coming from the coil box area.
Video here: https://youtu.be/v3PrFjznQcM
Any thoughts?
Video here: https://youtu.be/v3PrFjznQcM
Any thoughts?
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Sounds like the coils buzzing/clicking to me which is perfectly normal.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
nothing odd about it
they buzz on DC and click in AC
you never noticed this before? Going through your other posts, maybe you haven't driven enough to notice it before...anyway...it's normal
they buzz on DC and click in AC
you never noticed this before? Going through your other posts, maybe you haven't driven enough to notice it before...anyway...it's normal
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
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Topic author - Posts: 190
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Well, no.Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:11 pmnothing odd about it
they buzz on DC and click in AC
you never noticed this before?
Possibly because I only just removed the distributor and began running with coils and timer. And magneto.
So this is sort of new to me.
Okay then.
Thanks!
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
I just got mine running and missed the clicking, I have to go listen for it now.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Now you know what folks are talking about when they talk about the charm of the clicking of the Model T when underway
BTW, I had revised my previous post but not in time for you to see before you replied apparently. No offense was meant, but it sounds like it was taken. I am sorry.
BTW, I had revised my previous post but not in time for you to see before you replied apparently. No offense was meant, but it sounds like it was taken. I am sorry.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
No, no offense taken at all. Or even suspected.Scott_Conger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:29 pmNow you know what folks are talking about when they talk about the charm of the clicking of the Model T when underway
BTW, I had revised my previous post but not in time for you to see before you replied apparently. No offense was meant, but it sounds like it was taken. I am sorry.
I had a good laugh though. I just got it running well, wound it out to 37 mph yesterday (wheeeeee!), then took a railroad crossing a little faster than I probably should have. And then I got a real good listen on that clicking and thought "WHAT NOW?"
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
I think that thought has crossed the mind of every single Model T owner in history. At one time or another. More than once."WHAT NOW?"
You now officially belong to the club.
And for what it is worth, that is a happy sounding T.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
If it isn't making some sort of odd noise, it isn't running, or else something fell off....
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
That’s how you know it’s on Mag! It should run a little better and when it’s switched from battery to magneto that’s when the goes from clicking to CLICKING!
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Scott,
You just found the happy haert beat of your model T
Andre
Belgium
You just found the happy haert beat of your model T
Andre
Belgium
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
coils don't buss except when not running with key on. when running the points on the coil should open only once to fire spark plug. buzzing is not good. when running on battery dc they should only open once and not buzz.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Actually, on DC they will in fact buzz for the entire contact period of the timer, which is in the neighborhood of 1/8 of the rotation of the camshaft given there are 4 contact points within the timer separated by equal periods of insulation. 12DC produces somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 cps depending on coil adjustment, so there will be several oscillations of the points within the contact period, the first cycle of which should theoretically fire the cylinder. In any event, there is a shower of sparks for the duration of wiper/flapper/roller contact on the timer interior. It is this shower of sparks on DC which makes for such greater ease of starting on BAT when the transmission is stiff due to the cold. More than once I've pulled on the crank with no effect when while reaching for the crank, the car will start. This cannot happen on a single spark on MAG...it either fires or it doesn't. You have never noticed that while cranking there is a very long period of buzzing while pulling the crank through? It is exactly the same when running...the coil will buzz for 1/8 of the camshaft rotation (or perhaps more clearly understood, for a very significant period during the piston's power/expansion stroke).
On AC, there is typically a single spark (assuming conventional adjustment of the coil for purposes of illustration within this explanation) SOMEWHERE within the contact area timed by the pseudo-sine wave of the magneto. If the timer is adjusted to JUST the right place, there MAY be 2 sparks, the second of which is completely useless.
When run on DC, the timer decides exactly when the coil will buzz and when on AC the timer ALLOWS a particular period of time for the coil to spark, and the coil will ONLY spark when amperage of the juice exceeds the value set by the tension of the points. There are finer points to be made, but this is sufficient. MAG vs BAT ignition is a subject which has been very well covered in the pages of the magazine and here on-line. It is worthy of a read.
This is why on DC, the timing is infinitely variable relative to the timer case, while on AC, the timer adjustment will advance timing only in nodes...there are long flat bands within the timer advancement where nothing changes relative to spark advance.
All of this is to say that "yes, coils buzz on DC when running" (for a split second). This is why the sound is dramatically different when switching from BAT to MAG and the coils are adjusted correctly.
On AC, there is typically a single spark (assuming conventional adjustment of the coil for purposes of illustration within this explanation) SOMEWHERE within the contact area timed by the pseudo-sine wave of the magneto. If the timer is adjusted to JUST the right place, there MAY be 2 sparks, the second of which is completely useless.
When run on DC, the timer decides exactly when the coil will buzz and when on AC the timer ALLOWS a particular period of time for the coil to spark, and the coil will ONLY spark when amperage of the juice exceeds the value set by the tension of the points. There are finer points to be made, but this is sufficient. MAG vs BAT ignition is a subject which has been very well covered in the pages of the magazine and here on-line. It is worthy of a read.
This is why on DC, the timing is infinitely variable relative to the timer case, while on AC, the timer adjustment will advance timing only in nodes...there are long flat bands within the timer advancement where nothing changes relative to spark advance.
All of this is to say that "yes, coils buzz on DC when running" (for a split second). This is why the sound is dramatically different when switching from BAT to MAG and the coils are adjusted correctly.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
may be on dc a bit but I don't think so on ac as the ac cycle has some control of timing. if the coil buzzes you will have the dreaded multi spark. this Is an advantages when every thing is just right and when you turn the key on the multi spark may get you a free start. anyway how long is a buzz
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Don
Double sparking is an occurance of a Model T coil, running on the magneto, not battery, under a particular combination of adjustments. On battery, the plug will spark for as long as that cylinder's coil is grounded through the timer. The car doesn't give a damn that the fuel ignited; the coil will continue to spark until that contact is broken and the next cylinder's coil is grounded.
Ignition with a battery results in one long wicked spark which will occur throughout the entire contact of the timer for the particular cylinder that it is lined up on (see previous post). And if you want to wonder just how long that spark will occur, wait a couple minutes with the key on and the coil buzzing and you'll eventually see smoke and tar come boiling out of the coil as it overheats...no, actually, please don't...if you can, just take my word for it that it will.
Now,
pull a plug out, leave it connected to the wire and lay on the head of your car with the electrode near or touching a ground.
slowly crank the engine through with the key set to BAT
When set to BAT, if you get a single spark for a split second, with a battery and not a constant spark for a significant duration of crank rotation, then you will need to rewrite and reexplain the entire theory of the Model T Ford ignition system; Huff and Ford were wrong and you are right. Patterson and Boggess were simply deluding themselves in the creation of their paper, and those of us with a modicum of experience with this stuff just have been lucky and successful 100% of the time even though we knew nothing of what we were doing.
If you wish to substitute opinion or misunderstanding for fact, well, have at it brother. You're not the first and you'll not be the last.
Or you could spend an evening here, and eventually understand how the magneto works: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/ignition2.pdf
Fully understanding the nuances of the magneto and how/why the spark occurs at a specific time (semi) independent of when the timer is grounded, will lead to understanding how/why the coil on DC will throw a constant spark for the FULL DURATION of timer grounding, beginning with the initial TTF period following the actual grounding and for the entire duration thereafter until the wiper finally runs off of the grounded segment. Again, there is no single spark, no double spark, but only a constant spark for an extended duration of piston travel (timer wiper rotation) when running on battery. On DC, the points operate in a very tiny range of movement and have a typical frequency of oscillation of around 200 cps as mentioned above, which is the buzz as long as the coil is grounded. On AC, the points travel in a much wider range of movement, operating either on the leading or trailing edge of the AC pulse, and thus you hear a "click" with a one-time spark per cylinder compression.
Finally, you could just continue to argue. I'm betting that I know which path you'll take.
Good luck and have fun with your car. Model T's like gravity, continue to work even when folks don't know why.
Double sparking is an occurance of a Model T coil, running on the magneto, not battery, under a particular combination of adjustments. On battery, the plug will spark for as long as that cylinder's coil is grounded through the timer. The car doesn't give a damn that the fuel ignited; the coil will continue to spark until that contact is broken and the next cylinder's coil is grounded.
Ignition with a battery results in one long wicked spark which will occur throughout the entire contact of the timer for the particular cylinder that it is lined up on (see previous post). And if you want to wonder just how long that spark will occur, wait a couple minutes with the key on and the coil buzzing and you'll eventually see smoke and tar come boiling out of the coil as it overheats...no, actually, please don't...if you can, just take my word for it that it will.
Now,
pull a plug out, leave it connected to the wire and lay on the head of your car with the electrode near or touching a ground.
slowly crank the engine through with the key set to BAT
When set to BAT, if you get a single spark for a split second, with a battery and not a constant spark for a significant duration of crank rotation, then you will need to rewrite and reexplain the entire theory of the Model T Ford ignition system; Huff and Ford were wrong and you are right. Patterson and Boggess were simply deluding themselves in the creation of their paper, and those of us with a modicum of experience with this stuff just have been lucky and successful 100% of the time even though we knew nothing of what we were doing.
If you wish to substitute opinion or misunderstanding for fact, well, have at it brother. You're not the first and you'll not be the last.
Or you could spend an evening here, and eventually understand how the magneto works: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/ignition2.pdf
Fully understanding the nuances of the magneto and how/why the spark occurs at a specific time (semi) independent of when the timer is grounded, will lead to understanding how/why the coil on DC will throw a constant spark for the FULL DURATION of timer grounding, beginning with the initial TTF period following the actual grounding and for the entire duration thereafter until the wiper finally runs off of the grounded segment. Again, there is no single spark, no double spark, but only a constant spark for an extended duration of piston travel (timer wiper rotation) when running on battery. On DC, the points operate in a very tiny range of movement and have a typical frequency of oscillation of around 200 cps as mentioned above, which is the buzz as long as the coil is grounded. On AC, the points travel in a much wider range of movement, operating either on the leading or trailing edge of the AC pulse, and thus you hear a "click" with a one-time spark per cylinder compression.
Finally, you could just continue to argue. I'm betting that I know which path you'll take.
Good luck and have fun with your car. Model T's like gravity, continue to work even when folks don't know why.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
With the ignition switch in BAT position, one of the four Model T coils will buzz until the coil's points stick or the battery runs down if the engine happens to be stopped with one of the timer segments in contact. You can clearly hear the buzz on most Ts. I can hear it clearly on my car, which has the late style coil box mounted on the cylinder head, with the engine off, key on BAT and the engine stopped with a timer segment in contact. If it doesn't buzz, or start, when I turn the key to BAT with the engine off, I can make it buzz by turning the engine with the crank or with the starter until one or another timer segment makes contact. The magneto delivers no current when the engine is stopped, and it does not deliver a steady flow of current when the engine is running.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Many years ago, in an effort to take some of the mystery out of the Model T ignition system, I wrote an article on this subject.
On battery the coil will vibrate continously at its natural rate so long as the timer is making contact. On magneto the coil will operate once every 22.5 degrees of cranksahft rotation so long as the timer is making contact.
Attached is a copy of the article.
Ron Patterson
On battery the coil will vibrate continously at its natural rate so long as the timer is making contact. On magneto the coil will operate once every 22.5 degrees of cranksahft rotation so long as the timer is making contact.
Attached is a copy of the article.
Ron Patterson
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Oops, I should have written Steve Coniff and I co-wrote the article.
Here is the follow up article.
Here is the follow up article.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
I will try agian.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Thanks Ron
Andre
Belgium
Andre
Belgium
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Ron
I am curious as to how long it takes for the points to reclose after firing in a properly adjusted coil? In your discussion it shows about 2 ms for the points to open but I don't suppose that the time to reclose is symmetrical.
I am curious as to how long it takes for the points to reclose after firing in a properly adjusted coil? In your discussion it shows about 2 ms for the points to open but I don't suppose that the time to reclose is symmetrical.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
I don't know. I never investigated that, primarily becasue I did not see it as material to the coils function.
Remember when the coil fires on a running engine it will not be required to do so agian for two complete crankshaft revolutions. So there is plenty of time for the coil to relax to its quescient state and be ready for another firing.
Remember when the coil fires on a running engine it will not be required to do so agian for two complete crankshaft revolutions. So there is plenty of time for the coil to relax to its quescient state and be ready for another firing.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Don: Interesting question but as Ron suggests it's something that kinda just happens and happens quickly enough to not be an issue. Heres a quote from a Ford service recommendation on adjusting coils.:
"Adjust tension on the vibrator spring by lightly tapping the back of the vibrator spring bridge (or by prying it up) until the coil draws 1.3 amperes at 6 volts input. When all 4 coils are properly adjusted, they should all have a uniform pitch like the sound of an angry bee, about 275 cps."
275 cps (Hz) is one cycle per 3.636 mSec. If time to firing was 2.00 mSec, the time to point closure would be 1.636 mSec. As a point of reference, at an engine speed of 2000 rpm, the time between firings of each coil is 60 mSec so there's plenty of time for the points to close and be ready for the next event. jb
"Adjust tension on the vibrator spring by lightly tapping the back of the vibrator spring bridge (or by prying it up) until the coil draws 1.3 amperes at 6 volts input. When all 4 coils are properly adjusted, they should all have a uniform pitch like the sound of an angry bee, about 275 cps."
275 cps (Hz) is one cycle per 3.636 mSec. If time to firing was 2.00 mSec, the time to point closure would be 1.636 mSec. As a point of reference, at an engine speed of 2000 rpm, the time between firings of each coil is 60 mSec so there's plenty of time for the points to close and be ready for the next event. jb
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
It seems to me that it would take longer for them to reclose as when opening they are pulled open by the magnet against the spring and the opening is delayed by the gap in the points. They return by spring power and if I have this right the inductive kick current in the primary would tend to hold the points open a bit longer. I ask because if too long points wont buzz.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
It seems to me that it would take longer for them to reclose as when opening they are pulled open by the magnet against the spring and the opening is delayed by the gap in the points. They return by spring power and if I have this right the inductive kick current in the primary would tend to hold the points open a bit longer. I ask because if too long points wont buzz.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
I've had my Model T running for two years and this is new to me. I always run on Mag so the clicking is normal. I guess I'll have to switch to Battery just to hear the difference. One thing I like about this hobby is that there is always something new to learn.
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Re: Odd Clicking When Running on Magneto
Sometimes odd clicking of an engine can be something that is hard to diagnose... but easily fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3k5F9dUdi4
Regards,
Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3k5F9dUdi4
Regards,
Mike