Carburetor Improvements

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bdtutton
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Carburetor Improvements

Post by bdtutton » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:40 am

I found out the carburetor on my car is a little newer than the car. I thought about finding a carburetor that matched the year of the car, but then I thought...maybe the reason the previous owner put a newer carburetor on the car was to make it run better.
.
Here is my question...did Ford make improvements to the carburetors over time to make the Model T run better or were the changes just to cut costs? Basically, do the later carburetors work better than earlier ones?
.
Thanks...

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Mark Gregush
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Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:49 am

What carburetor are you asking about? Holley or Kingston? What year? With the information given so far, could even be aftermarket.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup

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TRDxB2
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Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:03 am

bdtutton wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:40 am
..
Here is my question...did Ford make improvements to the carburetors over time to make the Model T run better - YES
were the changes just to cut costs? - YES
Basically, do the later carburetors work better than earlier ones? DEPENDS
Answer 1 This explains most every carb available for a T many pictures a must to read...
By Stan Howe on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 06:27 pm: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/70303.html
Answer 2 http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1441246815 More info than whats below
By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Wednesday, September 02, 2015 - 10:14 am:
All you have to do is look at the amount of machining and parts it took to make the carb and you can tell what is going to run better. The early 4 and 5 ball Kingstons were expensive to cast and took a lot of machining and parts assembly. The later ones have far fewer parts and were designed and built as quickly and cheaply as possible and still have an acceptable level of performance.

The Holley two screw, which is really just an early version of the G, took a lot of parts and accurate machining. The G is the same. There are many machined places, it takes a separate venturi, a snap ring, an idle tube with a threaded jet and an attachment nut, a screwed in fuel nozzle with a gasket, a cover for that hole that the venturi fits into; threaded for the friction nut, 4 slits in that threaded boss for the friction nut, three screws to hold it on, an adjustment knob with a separate knob, a two piece throttle shaft and arm, etc. Just think about the three screws to hold the cover on. If they cost 1/10 of a cent each ten of them cost a penny, a hundred cost a dime a thousand cost a dollar, ten thousand cost ten dollars. In 1914 that was a lot of money. Think about what it cost to machine the body and all those parts compared to an NH. Overall, an NH has only one or two parts that have to fit fairly accurately and those fits are all in the body, not separate parts that have to fit and be assembled.
Think about the assembly time to put together a Holley G as opposed to an NH.

In 1914 Ford made over 200,000 cars. That means 200,000 carburetors. Ten cents saved on every carburetor was $20,000 at year's end. That was a lot of money. If Ford could save $1 or a little more on every carburetor that is close to a quarter of a million dollars a year. They bought those carbs on contract from Kingston and Holley, not only low bid but who could supply them.

Ramping up production from 35,000 cars in 1911 to over 200,000 in 1914 took a lot of capital outlay for machinery and facilities, not just at Ford but for Kingston, Holley and the other Ford suppliers. I'm sure they were looking for designs that were faster and cheaper to build with the machinery and trained employees they already had. Ford could hire assembly workers and teach them to turn the wrench to the right to tighten whatever bolt they were putting in but the carburetor builders had to have machinists who could run a lathe and other machines to produce more carburetors. That they were able to increase their production nearly 6 times over between 1911 and 1914 is a story that should be told.

The cost of material is also significant. A Holley G or Kingston 4 ball weighs far more than the later carburetors and is made out of brass or a variety of bronze mixes which are even more expensive than brass. A 5 ball Kingston weighs more than any of the later carbs. There must have been a significant reduction in material cost when Holley figured out how to cast the G in iron instead of brass for the 1918-19 model years. The cost of brass at the time was probably very high due to the demand for brass during WWI for shell casings. Saving 5@ on the cost of each brass carburetor by making a smaller carburetor or reducing the material cost by 50@ between brass in 1920 and the new cast iron Holley NH made it possible for Holley to supply those carbs to Ford for around 30 Cents where in 1914 they were paying well over a dollar per carburetor - as near as I can tell.

Answer 3 - User experience reigns - Vaporizer may be at the bottom of the list
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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speedytinc
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Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:41 am

bdtutton wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:40 am
I found out the carburetor on my car is a little newer than the car. I thought about finding a carburetor that matched the year of the car, but then I thought...maybe the reason the previous owner put a newer carburetor on the car was to make it run better.
.
Here is my question...did Ford make improvements to the carburetors over time to make the Model T run better or were the changes just to cut costs? Basically, do the later carburetors work better than earlier ones?
.
Thanks...
Short answer: yes. Vaporizer was the exception. It was a necessary design to burn poor quality, low octane fuel.
@ the start of the T, carburetor technology was still in its infancy. As they figured it out they got simpler & more efficient.

The 2nd generation NH is the best in simplicity & performance. Flow comparisons have been made of various carbs . the NH(sway back) flows 29 cfm. The first gens flow 31 cfm. G's less than 29 cfm. Thats all about breathing. More potential speed & power.
The first gen NH is called the straight thru. Some folks really love them. It lasted about 1/2 year in 1920. Why change the new design so soon?? They didnt atomize the fuel well & got poorer mileage. (That was a big deal for the sales pitch.) The G, which it replaced is a very good carb, but more labor intensive & therefore expensive, as stated above.
If your point is what carburetor should I run? NH swayback. IMO

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Mark Gregush
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Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:52 pm

You show a 1914 in your profile, is that the car being talked about in this question?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Topic author
bdtutton
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Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by bdtutton » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:34 pm

Wow...thank you for all the good information. To answer the question...yes the car I have is a 1914 and the carburetor that was put on by the previous owner is a Holley Model-NH. It looks like it originally came with a brass carburetor back in 1914. According to what I am reading the car probably runs better with the newer Holley Model-NH...so I think I will leave the Model-NH on it for now. In and old box of spare parts I have a brass carburetor that is missing several pieces that I think was the original carburetor that came with the car, but I am not sure what it will take to get it back in tip top shape.

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Mark Gregush
Posts: 4956
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:56 pm

New from the factory, Kingston 4 ball or Holley G.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


speedytinc
Posts: 3840
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Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
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Re: Carburetor Improvements

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:59 pm

bdtutton wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:34 pm
Wow...thank you for all the good information. To answer the question...yes the car I have is a 1914 and the carburetor that was put on by the previous owner is a Holley Model-NH. It looks like it originally came with a brass carburetor back in 1914. According to what I am reading the car probably runs better with the newer Holley Model-NH...so I think I will leave the Model-NH on it for now. In and old box of spare parts I have a brass carburetor that is missing several pieces that I think was the original carburetor that came with the car, but I am not sure what it will take to get it back in tip top shape.
I also have a 14. I also run the NH. I have an original, correct brass G type on the shelf. That earlier holly carb is a fine unit & would run excellent for all but possibly highest fuel demand. One might not notice. I do like the fuel level setting accuracy of the G type.

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