magneto quit

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JamesD
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magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:58 pm

Yesterday I was driving to the grocery store and my mag quit. It backfired a couple of time and then the engine died. I coasted to a stop, turned it to "bat" and it started right up but it just dies if I turn it to "Mag". Testing the ignition switch, it has continuity from the mag post wire to the coil box with the engine off and the switch turned to Mag. I put an 1156 bulb on the mag post and it glows dimly at idle and gets brighter when I speed it up. Unfortunately I don't have an analogue volt meter and the stores are closed for the August Civic Holiday (Canada). Until now the mag always worked without a hitch. Is there a test I can do on the mag coils? Checking resistance through the mag post to ground is essentially 0, I'm assuming there isn't enough resistance in the mag coils to amount to anything, is that correct? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: magneto quit

Post by speedytinc » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:22 pm

The mag is producing , as evidenced by your light bulb. It would seem to be a switch issue. Repop switch?? Probe the switch with your tester.
Caution: dont accidentally get any voltage to the mag post, then you will have a dead mag.

BTW, your transmission cover is up side down.

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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:42 pm

The switch is an old original and I wouldn't be surprised if it was shot. I've disassembled it and cleaned it up as good as possible but It is in rough shape. I was thinking of getting a reproduction switch. Are they no good? I ordered a kit for mine but it is obviously wrong and doesn't fit at all. Maybe the Canadian switches are different inside.

As far as the trans cover being upside down, does it matter if I'm running an oil screen under it?


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Re: magneto quit

Post by speedytinc » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:03 pm

JamesD wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:42 pm
The switch is an old original and I wouldn't be surprised if it was shot. I've disassembled it and cleaned it up as good as possible but It is in rough shape. I was thinking of getting a reproduction switch. Are they no good? I ordered a kit for mine but it is obviously wrong and doesn't fit at all. Maybe the Canadian switches are different inside.

As far as the trans cover being upside down, does it matter if I'm running an oil screen under it?
Repop switches are notoriously horrible.
I have refurbished a few original switches. Polish contact areas, bend for better contact pressure & lube with dielectric grease. The back terminal/insulator has to sit down in its original position. There is a 3 pin type & a bend it sheet metal tabs type. Some times(absent tabs or tight pins) One can add small sheet metal screws through the metal housing into the fiber insulator offset from the original pin locations.(if still solid or can be refurbished back to solid) Try to work with what you got.
Good luck. Its an easier fix than a dead mag. Yay.

& yes, with the screen the cover orientation is not as important. It may still create a drip into the screen's oil holes. If there are no interference issues, I would turn it over the next time it needs a new gasket. No hurry.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by John kuehn » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:17 pm

Snyders best quality reproduction switch back I purchased from them worked fine for me. They cost about 15.00 more but they are well made and function very well.
I had a original switch redone and redid it myself and it worked a while longer but it got to much wear on the contacts and would short out. The older repo switch’s are good but I haven’t used one of the newer mid priced switch’s.

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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:19 pm

Ok so I ran a wire directly from the mag post to the coil box, eliminating any switch or wiring. Pulled the spark plugs and cranked it over as fast as I can by hand. No spark. I even held the end of the plug wire in my hand while cranking and there's no jolt at all.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:23 pm

I would expect one of three things wrong. I would check in the order listed
1. Excess end play in crankshaft. Go to the front of the engine and with a large screwdriver try to pry the front pulley forward from the block. Don't pry too hard or you could bend or break something. If it has end play, it will kind of click forward. If it does not move, put it in high gear with at least one rear wheel jacked up and turn the crank a time or two, put it in neutral and then check the front pulley again to see if the crank moves forward. If it has noticeable forward movement, your rear main thrust surfaces on the front side toward the engine is excessively worn and needs to be repaired.
2. magnets need to be re-charged. This can be checked by the light bulb with analog AC volt meter across it. Should be at least 6 volts at idle, increasing with speed of the engine. This can be fixed sometimes by re-charging the magnets in the car, or by removing the hogs head and charging each magnet separately.
3. The magneto coil ring is grounded somewhere other than the top end opposite the magneto post. If this is so, you will need to pull the engine and re-wind the magneto coils or replace with one which is re-wound. This would also be a good time to re-charge the magnets. In this case, I would personally run the car on battery until next time the engine needs to be pulled to repair or repair the transmission
Norm


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Re: magneto quit

Post by speedytinc » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:32 pm

JamesD wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:19 pm
Ok so I ran a wire directly from the mag post to the coil box, eliminating any switch or wiring. Pulled the spark plugs and cranked it over as fast as I can by hand. No spark. I even held the end of the plug wire in my hand while cranking and there's no jolt at all.
Thats a good test. But that doesnt fit with your test bulb lighting on mag output. You should have good fire. With the light bulb hooked back up looking @ mag voltage. when you crank does it still light?
Possibly you have a poor connection inside the post to field coil. Pull the mag post & clean.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:53 pm

James

by the time we inherit these things, they are almost always impossible to hand crank on MAG. Wear on the third main creates too big of a gap to get the coil to pop at exceedingly low RPM, so you have really not eliminated anything, unless you have a history of starting your car on MAG prior to this. Once running, they will usually run on MAG just fine so long as the wear is not severe.

You have all but certainly got a flaky switch, and you most certainly have a functional MAG. The fact that the bulb did not blow out when reving the motor also serves to support my belief as stated above. That being: the MAG is adequate to run the car (and should for years), but is not strong enough to start the car.

Before making a mistake, though, stop running wires hither and yon if your battery is still hooked up. Even the most experienced T owners can create an "ah $hite" event with the MAG if the brain momentarily stops working.

Be sure and take Speedy's advice to look for lint on the MAG post. That usually contributes to a shut off like you experienced, but will also show as a non-burning bulb as the lint breaks the connection. It's too easy a check to not do, but my belief is it is an extraordinarily low likelihood that lint is lowering the MAG output, when clearly the MAG is at least working.
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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:17 pm

I was very careful not to run a wire that would make it possible to have battery voltage to the mag. I forgot to mention that I checked for lint under the mag post. That was the first thing I did. Crankshaft end play is 0.006" measured with a dial indicator on the Crankshaft and pushing the crank back and forth with a prybar on the front crank pulley.

before I do anything else I'm going to check the voltage once I get an analogue volt meter. I still think the bulb is too dim and doesn't get bright enough when I rev it, certainly no anywhere close to blowing it.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by speedytinc » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:36 pm

JamesD wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:17 pm
I was very careful not to run a wire that would make it possible to have battery voltage to the mag. I forgot to mention that I checked for lint under the mag post. That was the first thing I did. Crankshaft end play is 0.006" measured with a dial indicator on the Crankshaft and pushing the crank back and forth with a prybar on the front crank pulley.

before I do anything else I'm going to check the voltage once I get an analogue volt meter. I still think the bulb is too dim and doesn't get bright enough when I rev it, certainly no anywhere close to blowing it.
That smells like a weak magneto, as Scott pointed to + a bad ignition switch. An actual voltage reading will tell the tale.

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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:05 pm

I bought a cheapo offshore analogue Volt meter today and ten 1156 bulbs and a bulb socket. Hooked it up to the mag: 2.5V at idle and 5V at higher speed. I didn't want to over rev it. Obviously too low. Tried an in-car mag recharge using a method described by Tom Carnegie in the 2018 forum. Zapped it a bunch of times with my 200A battery charger. Tried again: 10V at idle and 20V at a high idle. Revved it up and blew the bulb...twice. re-connected the mag wire and it runs on mag again. I disconnected the wire just in case there's a stray current there somewhere and will test it again tomorrow

Now my question is: could my dodgy ignition switch have caused the mag to go weak? if there was a connection from Bat to Mag inside the switch could that cause the mag to go weak while driving?

regardless I think a new switch is in order.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:12 pm

if there was a connection from Bat to Mag inside the switch could that cause the mag to go weak while driving?
It sure would

It sounds like you're on the road to recovery
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Re: magneto quit

Post by AndreFordT » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:12 am

James,
I was there before on my 1926 touring and did the repair on the old switch twice than I bought a "new " one.
After a few runs, the new switch, get wrong too.
For ten years now, I am running the 1926 touring with a cheap three way switch and use the original " old" switch only to set the lights on.

Here is what I did.
I cut the centre contact in the middle of the switch and connected the "cheap" three way switch on the mag; bat and ignition posts.
The middle of the switch connection go to the coilbox, the side connections go to the battery or the magneto terminal on the old switch connectors.
The three way switch went in a hole that was in the dash before I bought the car.

Good luck

Andre
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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:32 pm

checked again today. After sitting overnight with the mag post disconnected I'm back to 2.5V at idle and not going above 4V when revved up. Do I need to charge the magnets some more, or why are they losing their charge? The mag worked good after sitting for 10 years, now it suddenly died. It seems to take a charge on the magnets but they don't hold it. Do I just need to charge it more? I must have given it 50 cycles with my battery charger yesterday and then it worked beautifully. Seems like something is draining off the magnetism.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:20 pm

FWIW, it only takes a few strikes to charge the magnets

for your question, there is most certainly a current path from your battery through the mag coil by way of some sort of malfunctioning wiring. If you still have the switch wired up this is most certainly the cause. If that is the case, you remedied the symptom (discharged magnets) without treating the cause (a likely malfunctioning switch). You still have work ahead of you but at least you know you know how to charge magnets! ;)

Now, there is another explanation and that is that the end float of your crank is in excess of .006" that I think you measured. The recharge procedure could have pulled the magnets close to the coil winding and after starting, the mag was a super-mag and now subsequent to that test, the crank has floated back. All that speculation aside, it does not fit with your original complaint (which sounds very much like battery current discharging into the coil and thus demagnetizing the magnets). I only mention this remote possibility for the benefit of others similarly stricken, but without the driving drama you incurred.
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Re: magneto quit

Post by John.Zibell » Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:28 pm

Send your switch to Ben Martin. He doesn't do e-mail. His number is 770-938-3376
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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:36 pm

I think I'm winning. I took out the old switch and wired up two On-Off-On switches to replace the ignition and lights. Made a temporary dash plate to hold them and the ammeter. Went for a 3 mile ride and no mag issues. Started running on three cylinders, but that was a loose coil in the coil box. wiggled it a bit and it ran on four again. I had put new wood in the coil box some time ago, but one of these days I'll spring for the modern plastic kit. I'll run it like this for a while to make sure everything is OK and then work on getting a correct switch again. Any way it runs on mag!! Yay!
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Re: magneto quit

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:53 pm

Good for you, and fingers crossed that you've isolated the issue (I believe you have).
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Re: magneto quit

Post by paddy1998 » Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:29 pm

JamesD wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:36 pm
I think I'm winning. I took out the old switch and wired up two On-Off-On switches to replace the ignition and lights. Made a temporary dash plate to hold them and the ammeter. Went for a 3 mile ride and no mag issues. Started running on three cylinders, but that was a loose coil in the coil box. wiggled it a bit and it ran on four again. I had put new wood in the coil box some time ago, but one of these days I'll spring for the modern plastic kit. I'll run it like this for a while to make sure everything is OK and then work on getting a correct switch again. Any way it runs on mag!! Yay!
I'd love to see how you wired that up.


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Re: magneto quit

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:15 pm

a SPDT center-off switch would replicate the ignition switch function perfectly
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Re: magneto quit

Post by paddy1998 » Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:19 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:15 pm
a SPDT center-off switch would replicate the ignition switch function perfectly
There's more going on in the Model T ignition switch assembly than Dim-Off-Bright and Magneto-Off-Battery.

For example, how does the cutout get wired through? Does it require a pigtail be made of the ammeter+ wire for the battery ignition, bright, dim and taillight?

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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:45 pm

Yes, one SPDT switch for the ignition. Center terminal is the coil box, one side is mag and the other bat. The light switch is functionally the same except it has two sides, so there's a battery wire from the ammeter connection to the center terminal of one switch and and a jumper from there to the other side center terminal. One side of the switch is Dim/bright, and the other side of the switch is connected to the tail light on both terminals. My lights were sketchy with the original switch too, I had to wiggle the switch just so to get the tail lights to come on. Now it all works.

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Re: magneto quit

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:16 pm

toggle.png
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JamesD wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:45 pm
Yes, one SPDT switch for the ignition. Center terminal is the coil box, one side is mag and the other bat. The light switch is functionally the same except it has two sides, so there's a battery wire from the ammeter connection to the center terminal of one switch and and a jumper from there to the other side center terminal. One side of the switch is Dim/bright, and the other side of the switch is connected to the tail light on both terminals. My lights were sketchy with the original switch too, I had to wiggle the switch just so to get the tail lights to come on. Now it all works.
Thanks a ton. I think this is going to be a great stopgap until I get my switch repaired.

I've got it mostly wired up (except tail light) and I'm having as bit of an issue. Light work better than ever, car actually fired over on mag hand cranking (which surprised me, but then again I never tried before) but I can't get the coils to buzz on battery. Maybe I've got it wired wrong . . .

The switch on the left (ignition) has the coil wire in the center input, mag wire on one side, ammeter+, cutout wire from terminal 1 of the firewall terminal block and jumper to the center terminal of the switch on the right (light switch).

Thoughts?
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Re: magneto quit

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:05 pm

Andre

I think you've started a trend...!
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Re: magneto quit

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:22 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:05 pm
Andre

I think you've started a trend...!
Got a nifty switch plate going too. Just gotta figure out how to get the battery to fire the coils. :D
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Re: magneto quit

Post by JamesD » Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:39 pm

Should be pretty simple to follow the power. Is there 6V at the switch? If not there's an issue with your wiring. Do you have 6V at the coil box terminal when you flip the switch opposite to "Mag"? Have you checked the continuity of the switch. one way should connect the left terminal with the center, the other way should connect the right terminal to the center. There should be no continuity between the outer terminals to each other.

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Re: magneto quit

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:16 pm

JamesD wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:39 pm
Should be pretty simple to follow the power. Is there 6V at the switch? If not there's an issue with your wiring. Do you have 6V at the coil box terminal when you flip the switch opposite to "Mag"? Have you checked the continuity of the switch. one way should connect the left terminal with the center, the other way should connect the right terminal to the center. There should be no continuity between the outer terminals to each other.
Yeah, this was a case of me being an idiot.

Turns out that it wasn't magically firing over on my weak magneto; it was firing over on battery. For some reason I assumed that flipping the switch TOWARDS the battery terminal meant that I was switching on battery. A few minutes with the Fluke testing each switch brought me to the realization that the switch connects the opposite side; flipping the switch left connects the right terminal. Which I suppose is obvious to people that know what they're doing.

On a side note, when I rewired and rebuilt my 71 Triumph Spitfire dash I moved the turn signal stalk off the column and replaced it with a SPDT toggle on the dash. When I wired it up and tested it I noticed that flipping the switch left activated the right turn signal and vice-versa.

I solved that problem by loosening the switch bezel and just flipping the switch over. 8-)

After doing all that you'd think I would've learned something. But apparently not. :lol:
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