MTFCA Forum

I have a non electric 23 roadster that has 30x3 square fellow non demountable wheels on the front and 30x3 1/2 on square fellow non demountable wheels on the back. What should it have to be correct? Some say 30x3 1/2 steel fellow non demountables all the way around…..boy the wheels on the car look like that have always been with the car. Opinions would be appreciated as I’m out of my comfort Zone doing a black faced car. I usually concentrate on brass era T’s.

Demountables on '23 cars were optional on open cars. Best I can tell you. Seems what you have is correct.

The advice you've received is a mixed bag. In 1920, steel fello non-demountables were introduced into parts lists: P/N 2800D for 30x3 and P/N 2814 for rear in 30x3 1/2 (metal fello) on Dec 1920. That said, I don't doubt for a moment that the earlier wheels would have been fit to a non-electric.

So, I suppose for the nit-pickers, you "must" locate a set of steel non-demountables to be deemed authentic, but I'd suspect that you'd be discarding the ORIGINAL wheels for "correct" wheels (which might take a bit of poking around to find!)

That said, putting 30x3 1/2 steel non-demountables all the way 'round would be absolutely incorrect.

It all depends on whether you are planning to show the car in a show where the cars are judged for most original. Otherwise, use what looks to most people as the original wheels and when the wood felloes and spokes wear out, look for a set of steel wheels for replacements. Remember, anyone older than that car was just a baby when it was new and very likely would not know the difference. That should give you time to do the research and search for the correct wheels.

Norm

After having a bunch of wood fellow problems on my 14, I came across a few steel fellow non-demountable. I decided to go that way. In my limited research, I found where they were offered as REPLACEMENT wheels without hubs. October 1921 service bulletin. I was able to acquire a pair NOS back east. Never had hubs, really tight, original paint.
I have come across a very original 26-7 roadster locally. It was non electric, with kerosene side lights, dimmer transformer & 30 x 3 & 3.5 square wood fellow wheels. This & the fact you dont see hardly any of them confirms my conclusions to me.
I believe these non demountable wheels were only sold as replacement wheels, presumably for early T's & NEVER came from the factory on a new T.
I would be interested in evidence that shows otherwise. Any factory photo's out there showing non demountable steel fellow wheels?
T-2800-D Front. T-2814-D Rear
I believe your non electric T came with those wood fellow wheels.

It’s a pretty complete original car to. I just can’t wrap my brain around why someone would change to what are considered older wheels. I want to restore it and show it in the aaca so I may just leave it like it is and take my chances with what I have. Thanks for everyone’s opinions though.

Does the AACA offer a sheet of judging guidelines or specs for Ford Ts? I don't know how else you could be sure ahead of time that what you have is what the judges expect to see on your particular car.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:44 pm

Does the AACA offer a sheet of judging guidelines or specs for Ford Ts? I don't know how else you could be sure ahead of time that what you have is what the judges expect to see on your particular car.

There you go. at least a judging standard.

I held off posting on this because I didn't want to get into a what's correct contest. Frist of all the metal fello non-demountables in 24", ( 30 x 3 ), are very hard to find in useable condition, most are rusty and sharp and require a lot of work and new custom spokes. The 23", ( 30 x 3.5 ) metal fello non-demountable seem to be a little easier to find but not by much. I would say this is because in later years of 1925 -1935 the 30 x 3.5 oversize tires would have been more plentiful as used tires, replacing older wood fello front wheels. Also many cars that were non-electric were later upgraded to demountable wheels. And then there is the hotroders that went big time after 1923 roadsters with their sloping windshield, larger turtle deck, and low radiator. So a original 1923 non-electric roadster is very special and restored as such. Now we do know of a low mileage 1917 touring that is original, ( The Ripvanwinkel T ), yet the judging guide lines would find several things supposedly wrong with this car when it was frist photographed for The Vintage Ford. My point is that over the years I have seen a few original 1923 non-electric cars that have been stored for many years and they had the square fello non-demountable wood wheels. I have looked at many pictures taken of new 1923 open cars with non-demountables and they had the square fello wood wheels. Now I don't know what ACCA judging says about the 1923 wheels, but if you can find photo evidence of new cars with the square fello they have to to be wood. I would start by looking at the coffee table big picture Ford Row Books from the 1980"s, I would have looked at mine but they are packed away for house remodeling. Best wishes on you 1923 and keep the wood fello wheels if they are in good condition.

For whatever it is worth. My opinion? However, it is in fact, a FACT! Written records are NOT always correct. Errors in recordkeeping can happen for many reasons. Often things were added to the record in a year or several later and just written wrong. Sometimes things were written ahead of implementation, then changed or delayed later. Sometimes the record keeper wasn't personally involved, and simply misinformed.
Written records ARE very important, and help establish correct timelines. However they need to be balanced with other types of records, photographs, and other empirical evidence.

A bit over thirty years ago, this discussion was being had in club meetings and tour bull sessions. It was never to my knowledge satisfactorily settled.
However, I and a few other people at that time had an opportunity to look very closely at literally hundreds of original era and factory photographs from the private collection of no less than Lorin Sorensen! MOST of those photos were never published as far as I know. What I remember about this subject? Because this subject was at that time a common discussion around the clubs, we looked closely at the wheels of a lot of factory photos. And we saw square wood felloe wheels on almost every year car from 1924 through 1927. I cannot swear to 1923, however, I doubt seriously that EVERY 1923 with non-demountable wheels had the steel wheels. Square wood felloe wheels began showing up on cars either 1918 or 1919. I have seen original square wood felloe wheels on 1926s and 1927s with the large brake drums on the rear.

Personally, I have seen too much empirical evidence of the square felloe wheels to ever accept that they weren't used in any given year after 1920 regardless of what the written record says. But that is me.

If I have some time in the next few days, I will try to find a couple pictures.

Thanks so much for your opinions. It’s really an interesting car and I think the square fellow wheels are what came on this car. I restored a 26 non starter car a few years back for Gord Koll and it to had square fellow wheels on it.

I’ll have lots of questions moving forward on this car as I’m completely out of my comfort zone and you have have so much experience. I really appreciate that you guys share your knowledge so freely.

If you are going to be judged at an AACA meet go over to the AACA web page. There is a spot for judging, good place to ask questions.
If you can provide documentation for an item on your car that’s usually good enough to not get penalized. Usually the judges aren’t experts on every make and model in the class, but model Ts are in classes by themselves and I suspect most judges know a good deal about what they are looking at.
I’ve entered other cars, but only had my T in the drivers class. You can request your judging sheet and look at how you did after the meet.
Good luck

Greg

The square fellow 30 x 3" fronts likely persisted for the entire time, for those wanting the lowest-priced car, non-electric, non-demountable.


Here is a later T with the all metal clincher rims, the fronts are 30 x 3". Don't think Ford ever offered these all metal clincher for the front in 30 x 3 1/2".
Am having a set of these in 30 x 3" being re-spoked by Calimers, and the spokes for the 30 x 3" are a some what semi-oval, lighter looking than the rear spokes of the same all metal rim in 30 x 3 1/2". Those rear are just like any of the spokes used on 30 x 3 1/2" wheels, but the tenon shape is different as they are retained within the hollow section of the rim, so not exposed in the tire casing part of the clincher.

This photo makes me ask 2 questions +. 1) what year was it taken? 2) Why no kerosene side lights? Didnt all non electric T's have them?
Could this T have replacement wheels? Could the owner have bought the cheaper replacement wheels over demountable wheels?
Very interesting picture.

I have a '22 Touring car chassis & it has 30x3 in the front & 30x31/2 in the rear flat wood fellow non demountable wheels. George

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:19 pm

This photo makes me ask 2 questions +. 1) what year was it taken? 2) Why no kerosene side lights? Didnt all non electric T's have them?
Could this T have replacement wheels? Could the owner have bought the cheaper replacement wheels over demountable wheels?
Very interesting picture.

Probably a electric start '20 or '21 before the green visor lens. Demountable were extra cost, even with the electric system equipped Ford, so this one got standard non-demountable. These all metal felloe were likely popular when they came out.

Here is another with metal felloe and no side lamps. Think this racer is also fitted with these, as the guys then figured the all metal felloe was better to take a chance with

Just to clarify. The electrics option and the multiple wheel options were two separate options. They were not bundled together. Open cars could be purchased new with neither, either, or both options. Most buyers originally probably did buy both the electrics option and one of the demountable wheels options. However, so many photographs clearly show Ts new enough to have had the options available but not having them, that we must accept that they were more than a rarity. Cars without the electrics package but with the demountable wheels are unusual. I have noticed more than a few era photos that way over the years, but not a lot of them. Cars with the electrics package but having non-demountable wheels on the other hand were quite common!
As I have commented many times before, it would seem that the inconvenience of hand cranking the car every day was more of a concern than the inconvenience of the occasional roadside repair of a flat tire.

Dan T, Interesting photo of the auto-polo T! Not only does it appear to be a live action shot (notice the amount of dirt flying around!), the steel felloe non-demountable wheel is a bit of a surprise considering how many of the auto-polo cars were old brass era Ts. Don't know if that photo was cropped? Or taken that way, but it doesn't show enough of the car to tell the vintage of it. The upside-down car does appear to be a brass era, at least the radiator.

I have looked through a few hundred photos on my computer, found lots of pictures of square wood felloe wheels on earlier Ts (1918 to 1921). Then today, while looking for something else, I found a good photo in the "Old Photos" section of the Forum's gallery.

Check this one;

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/app.php/gallery/image/1053

I personally appreciate this new information on these scarce wheels - parentage & availability.
Was not aware of the electric car wheel option of a non demountable.
They have been a wonder. I chose these for my 14 as a safety improvement over wood fellows & not wanting to go to wires.
They look really good to me.