Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

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weto
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Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:26 pm

probably along shot since I doubt many build them like this anymore but it's worth asking. Posted some photos of this years ago but now recently dragged my grandpa's model t out and have been working on it with my Dad. It's been sitting around likely since the mid 90's or so.

Grandpa was big into the hill climbs (and we have the trophies to prove it) back in the day and never had much money so this engine has a lot of "custom" work on it as you can quickly see from the photos including many of the performance adornments of the 60's/ 70's.


so anyway. to the problem. The engine backfires/ misses a bunch and spits back through the carburetor, I can even it out some if i pull the advance all the way down, but then the engine seems to become a bit lazy on acceleration. Near as my dad can remember this wasn't always the case, but did do it before being put away for all those years. Here's some things that we've done so far to isolate the issue, but sure would like some more suggestions as to what else to look at as well as gain some advice/ suggestions on some strange spark pluge appearances

something interesting is the CYL 1 and 2 plugs look 'normal', but 3 and 4 appear to be running quite rich.

NOTE: Because this is how grandpa built the car I'd like to keep it this way as much as possible.

1. changed the spark plugs
2. checked the plug wires
3. changed the points
4. changed the oil (i mean it was 30+ years old ;-)
5. new 6v battery
6. new fuel and fuel lines
7. rebuilt the carburetor


one thing of note is the generator doesn't appear to be charging, not really sure this should be an issue with a fresh battery, but it's worth mentioning.

On the bottom is the #2 spark plug on the top is #3. plug in #1 looks like #2 and the plug in cylinder #4 looks like #3

Image

Drivers side engine
Image

Drinkers side engine
Image


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:39 pm

In the early days, they sprayed water into the carb intake to clean carbon out of the combustion chamber.

Quite often a clean spark plug indicates water is leaking into a cylinder, but with three clean plugs the engine might not run at all.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by John Codman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:40 pm

That's clearly not a Model T engine. Do you know what it is?


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:44 pm

Actually, it is a T engine just quite heavily modified with overhead valve Fronty head on it, GM water pump etc.

one other thing we did is check the compression and got 60/62/60/60 so that seems good.

THe plugs shown in the photo are the new ones. probably 15 minutes of run time on them mostly Idle/ just above idle.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:45 pm

Sure is a Model T engine - just highly modified with a Fronty overhead. Pull the valve cover & gasket , if there is one and there will be a letter, a series of numbers & another corresponding letter - R, S or T - tells you which model head it is.
Last edited by RajoRacer on Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by MichaelPawelek » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:50 pm

You said you changed the points. Did you set the point gap properly and set everything to fire at the proper moment so that the manual advance works correctly?
I would start the engine with the clamp loosened on the distributor and have the mechanical advance rod disconnected. Then with the gas lever advanced somewhat manually turn the distributor by hand and see if the engine smooths out. I did this with a 55KW generator for years on tune ups that refused to run properly when set by the manual.
PS- Be sure to keep your hands clear of the fan!


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:54 pm

That 2 barrel carburetor has 2 main jets. One of them may be stopped up. Another thing to look for is sticking intake or exhaust valve or a weak or broken valve spring. If there are any vacuuum lines attached to the engine, be sure they are not leaking. It looks as if 1 and 2 aren't getting enough fuel to fire and 3 and 4 are getting way too much.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:03 pm

@MichaelPawelek - Points are gapped, didn't remove/ rotate/ loosen the distributor to do so and thus far have relied on the "it used to be ok" mindest. With that said, your second comment may be spot on. Using the manual advance it does seem to even out. Just strikes me as odd as why it may have changed that much, but anything's possible, we're relying on my dad's memory from 30 years ago after all.

@txgoat perhaps a dumb question but on the valve springs wouldn't that affect the compression? it's pretty much the same across all 4 cylinders. I did rebuild the carburetor, but that doesn't mean I did it right of course so I'll dig back into that again. There's no vacuum lines.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:04 pm

Old plug wires may be shorting to each other or to ground.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:06 pm

If I read you right? Cylinders 1 and 2 are clean? And cylinders 3 and 4 are sooty? Ordinarily, I would say there is an intake manifold leak to cylinders 1 and 2, with the fuel mixture richened up too much to compensate for the mismatch, resulting in 3 and 4 being sooty and still causing lean backfires from 1 and 2 through the carburetor. However, your Frontenac head doesn't allow for separate intake manifold leaking as the manifold is cast within the head. That MIGHT indicate a crack in the head? And such a crack could also allow water to creep in and wash the plugs?

Just my quick thoughts.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:11 pm

With only a few minute's run time, I'd think water leakage would be evident, especially since the 2 cylinders don't seem to fire at all. I have seen a flathead Ford engine where a head gasket had a slight leak. The engine ran good most of the time, but would get spells of showing a light miss. Figured it was a valve, as usual, but pulled the head and found one cylinder scoured clean as a new pin and the rest with typical carbon. Examining the gasket revealed evidence of a very small leak into the clean cylinder. Replacing the gasket fixed it.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Tim Moore » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Pull the cover and roll the motor over while watching the valves. On a Frontenac #1 and #2 share a rocker shaft as do #3 and #4. If your front shaft stands are loose in the head the valves wont open. Look at all stands as if they are ran loose they can break. Also look at the push rods to make sure they are actuating the rockers.

I have had Front's that have sat for years run badly but that has been sticky valves that push open and stay open but you have compression so doesn't sound like it.

I first suspect a valve train problem on top as it is both front cylinders.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by MichaelPawelek » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:17 pm

My point earlier was that if you did not set the new points, opened, closed or in between just like the old points were initially installed the timing will be off and you have to set them from scratch…


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Tim Moore » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:47 pm

Are you getting spark at #1 and #2 and if so are they switched around?

The push rods adjust at the top with a jam nut, as above but different approach make sure they are not too open and valves not working.

Back then the Front's came with a single valve spring but people liked to cut down a stock model T valve spring and put it inside the Front spring for more pressure. It sure did add spring pressure and would break rockers.

Tim Moore


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Tim Moore » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:49 pm

Just saw auto correct keeps changing "Fronty's" to "Front's"!

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:38 pm

Thanks for the suggestions guys! definitely some things to check out. especially interesting about the split rocker shafts, that would definitely line up with what I'm seeing in the spark plugs.

All 4 cylinders have spark, but I haven't gone the distance to make sure they're firing in the correct order.

I see your point Michael, I just set the gap, not necessarily thinking about if the new points were exactly in teh same spot. I'll add it to the list. Thanks!


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:43 pm

Holy Cow!

You guys are looking at a genuine GEMSA Motor!

Erik, proceed with considerable care and caution as these things are scarce as hen's teeth. It is not an engine that responds well to putt-putt idling or general farting around, and will likely only perform well at higer revs once sorted out. It is going to be a pretty much constant maintenance item once running and due to the revs necessary to run well, will be a shorter-lived engine than a normal "T".

As far as trouble-shooting, do not pull the head recklessly as you will be very disappointed in the time and expense you will invest in a new or reworked head gasket (and the perils which may follow).

Still...WOW
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Craig Leach » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:28 pm

I'm with Pat. Having the plug wires taped together could cause an issue with cross firing. Try separating the plug wires or at least remove the tape. Start it and turn the lights out if they are arking you should see the sparks. My son-in -law showed me that misting water on the wires( like out of a squrit bottle ) will show up the hard to find ones. sometimes the dwell being off will show spark at cranking speed but loose it when running. And wow your grandfather built some neat engine there. I have a hard time thinking it is a vacuum leak with almost no manifold? Is the line going into the head a oil supply line for the top end or a vacuum line? Good luck great engine.
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:37 pm

@Scott_conger Good eye it is indeed a gemsa. The idea behind getting this going is so my Mom can take it to the local car show an what not. You're right it is definitely not set up to be a parade cruiser. She used to race up the hill too in long beach in my grandpa's actual car. (he got this car I"m working on from Keith Sullivan)

I really don't want to do anything more than I have to. as mentioned, there's a lot of "custom" work done on this thing, most of that probably coming in the 60's and 70's as Grandpa passed away in '86.

@Craig - I'll give that a try. not sure what the line coming from the head is, but it's not really going anywhere, you can see it on the other photo going into the 'T" connector, but one of the lines is just pinched off. perhaps it bears more investigation.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:53 am

I don't know how the intake passages are arranged in that head. It has 3 exhaust ports out, so at least one pair of cylinders share an exhaust exit. A sticking valve or weak valve spring or other valve train issue might not show up on a compression check. An exhaust valve that was not seating when the engine is running could kill two cylinders that share an exhaust port. That said, given the compression test results, I'd look very carefully at every part of the ignition system, starting with the high tension side and working back.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:33 pm

I've worked on a Gemsa OHV speedster that originated in California - Gemsa heads were aluminum & stamped with his name & serial number. The port covers could have come from a swap meet so unless you have documentation, I'd be cautious calling it a "Gemsa" engine.

Frontenac R,S & T heads have the middle driver's side head bolt going right through the center of the intake port - one should take care in sealing both the intake manifold studs as they project through to the head bolt. I also seal the upper end of the head bolt where it comes through to the intake port - just a precaution so as not to being chasing a vacuum leak.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Tim Moore » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:41 pm

I agree with you RajoRacer. The casting looks like every single port Fronty I have or have had. The cover is slightly different as they normally secure in the center only but that was weak and could pull the center down and crack it, seen them modified before. I would like to see it with the cover off, in fact would like to see the entire car!

If Frontenac it should be stamped on top with a "T, R, or S" followed with numbers then the letter again. The Gemsa side plate could be just a dress up item that was reproduced.

Joe Gemsa did some "creative" work with his heads based on slight changes to originals so it is possible but not one I am aware of.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Virtus » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:57 pm

May be a shot in the dark, but is there a condenser in the distributor? Misfiring and popping through the carb was a sure sign of a failing condenser. Good luck!


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by kmatt2 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:52 pm

Your T overhead is a single port Fronty. The two spark plugs shown, one clean from front two cylinders, one sooty from back two cylinders, show drastically different conditions. Because the car sat for many years untouched this could mean that there is a partial blockage at the front two cylinders from outside objects dropped by critters or a small nest. I would take the small intake manifold off and get some strong light on the head intake area to check things out, then you can blow some compressed air at spark plug hole into front cylinder with intake valve open to check. By all means also check the other things listed also. Good luck, your grandfather's spirit is with you.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:09 pm

Have you oiled the valve stems and rockers before running the engine? Unless there is an oil line to the valve train somewhere not visible in the pictures, you will need to squirt oil on these areas. If there is a felt pad under the rocker cover, remove the cover and saturate the pad with engine oil.
As stated that's a Frontenac head, not a Gemsa. Side covers with Gemsa's name on them were commonly available back then. As Kevin stated, that one plug does not appear to be firing. Start the engine and short out that plug with a screwdriver and see if it makes any difference in how the engine runs. Could be a bad plug or a bad wire. Concentrate on the basics- check the cap and rotor for carbon tracks. Start it up in a dark area at night and see if any wires are arcing to ground or crossfiring.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:45 pm

Great information on the gemsa badging. Makes sense as I mentioned that there wasn't much money to be thrown around back then. Got a busy week this week, but hope to put some of your suggestions to use on Sunday.

Will say that we didn't oil the rockers/ stems and there is a felt pad under the cover as I tried to refill the oil there and made quite the mess when it overflowed.

Condenser could be suspect as well, as we only replaced the points and checked the cap/ rotor which both looked good.

I posted some photos of it a few years back on the old forum before I hit my mid life crisis and started getting off my arse to bug my dad to help get it going, link below to that

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1501154067


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:14 am

Quick update here for those interested. Still no resolution but have checked off a few things.

Changed the condenser
Removed the 8" long intake manifold and used a borescope to inspect inside the head, didn't notice any obstructions
removed the Valve cover, hand cranked the engine and all valves appeared to be cycling normally. It appeared that it was a single rocker shaft to me. I failed to take pictures though. I'll snap one next time, as I also forgot to get the model number.

still have a lot to check based on the suggestions here. Thank you for all the pointers so far.

One more question too, the distributor is an autolite IGW 4121A, anyone know of a similar model in case I want to replace this one? the googleverse comes up pretty empty when looking for that, other than a 1948 LEROI tractor seemed to run one, and Pertronix sells a electronic ignition kit for it.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:36 am

BITCHIN motor. My first quick read. Your spark advance must be backwards. Up is advanced, down is retard. The guy that builds it knows. Ordinary, mortal T owners get used to it or make it correct or "normal" Hope you get the kinks out soon. BITCHIN!!


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by speedytinc » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:51 am

speedytinc wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:36 am
BITCHIN motor. My first quick read. Your spark advance must be backwards. Up is advanced, down is retard. The guy that builds it knows. Ordinary, mortal T owners get used to it or make it correct or "normal" Hope you get the kinks out soon. BITCHIN!!
Let me add. Maybe 10 years ago I acquired a hot rod, BBR rajo 20 touring indirectly from an old hill climber. I still remember racing him from a light & seeing this full weight T lift the front wheels up. The previous 2 owners couldnt get it to run very well. The first guy even replaced the cam with an old stock one. Never ran well. Popped & snorted. Second owners couldnt get it to run any better & were intimidated by the stutz dual ignition. I traded & paid dearly for "pappas" T. When cold it popped & snorted @ & above idle. When hot, it would snort @ higher throttle. Had a 97(like yours) Put an 81 on it. Runs great. A little snorting till warmed up. Conclusion: over carburated. You have other issues also. Be patient, listen to the experienced racer guys. They will get you thru it. The normal model T manual doesnt apply much. This is no ordinary T.

You have a true gem and piece of model hill climb/racing history.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Burger in Spokane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:56 am

It's been a very long and physical week, and I am half brain dead.
I read the post title and had to read it again, because the first pass
had me thinking someone was requesting help, chasing 30-year-old
girls !

I need to get some sleep ....
More people are doing it today than ever before !


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:13 am

Not to be alarmist, but.. Famous RAJO lover, Chris Eggsgard(Billy Poobaugh) warned me, decades ago, that Fronty's were poured with excess end runs to keep the casting costs down & tended to crack from poor quality iron, where as Rajo heads were cast with clean, fresh iron. FWIW.
Another thing to consider, at least as rajo's are concerned (not as familiar with fronty's) Head bolts pass thru the intake ports & can develop leaks, making lean conditions. The fix was to line the hole with thin brass tubing.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by got10carz » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:13 pm

What is the piece bolted to the trans cover just inside the starter?


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:11 pm

QuickUpdate

I checked the plug wires and looked for any cross spark and it seemed all to be ok.

Took a quick video of it running, after checking all this stuff and pulling the spark lever all the way down (which in turn makes the distributor turn counter clockwise) it does seem to be running a bit smoother, but still pops back through the carb as you can clearly see me jumping out of my skin when it does ;-)

I cleaned up all the plugs so they're nice and shiny again. I didn't get a chance to run it very long, only had 30 min for lunch, but in the 10 min or so it was running the plugs on 3/4 didn't seem to be running as rich as they were before. I'll need to get some more run time on it to be sure though.

video link
https://youtu.be/MMgyXfCNVFQ

Here's some photos with the Valve Cover removed. Could not locate a letter stamped or otherwise in the Head.

Image

Image

Image


@ got10carz - Not really sure what that might be but in the photo with the valve cover off, it appears to be covered up whatever it was.

My Grandpa did have a Gemsa in his other T. Unfortunately I think I was told that back in the 80's or 90's the crankcase decided it needed some additional ventilation and a rod helped to punch a hole in the side. He's not Sullivan (Bloomfield) and interestingly enough, this car we're troubleshooting was also K. Sullivans.

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Image


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:16 pm

Spray some starting fluid around the bolts that go thru the intake ports & manifold for that matter while running looking for vacuum leaks.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:03 pm

The model & serial number is stamped on the exhaust side between the 2 studs - clean off the "goop" - it's there.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by kmatt2 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:05 pm

The intermittent carb poping sounds like a bad primary wire or maybe the coil. Frist temporarily bypass old wires and old on/off switch. New wire from battery power to new on/off toggle switch, new wire to coil ballast resistor, new wire ballast to coil, and new wire to distributor. If it still pops replace the coil and coil ballast resistor. By the way what is the red wire in picture that goes from distributor to the Gemsa side cover ? If it is a ground wire for distributor then replace it also. I assume that you already changed the condenser and points. Good luck.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:21 pm

@speedyTinc - forgot about mentioning the starting fluid, I sprayed all over the place and didn't notice any differences in idle pitch or speed.

@kmatt2 that red wire is a ground for the condenser/ distributor. Goes from the bracket for the condenser to that plate. the points and condenser were replaced.

Still tinkerin around, but wanted to keep ya'll updated.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:43 pm

weto wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:21 pm
@speedyTinc - forgot about mentioning the starting fluid, I sprayed all over the place and didn't notice any differences in idle pitch or speed.

@kmatt2 that red wire is a ground for the condenser/ distributor. Goes from the bracket for the condenser to that plate. the points and condenser were replaced.

Still tinkerin around, but wanted to keep ya'll updated.
That may not be the best spot for a ground wire.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:01 pm

Rockers on the Fronty are Nash 6 cylinder. Nice upgrade! Just throwing this out there for anyone wondering. The oil line under the cover with the external connection is not original, but a nice addition- any sign of welding a block of material into the head to do this?
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Dave Sullivan » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:32 pm

What's with the keeper on #4 intake, looks funny in the pic... Dave in Bellingham, WA


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:38 pm

Looks like valve rotators on all the exhaust valves.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by got10carz » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:49 pm

Dan, do the Nash rockers have a felt at the valve end, or was this modified?


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:09 am

Wanted to post a quick update on this since we just revisited it this last weekend and finally have some idea of what might be going on.

I've taken most if not all the suggestions above but to recap what I've done so far:

Changed points, condenser and coil.

Separated out the plug wires and validated good spark to all 4 cylinders and that all cylinders are firing.

pushed/ pulled/ checked to make sure that none of the valve stands are loose

Checked for Vacuum/ intake leaks but none were found.

pushed on all of the valve springs and none appear to be soft/ broken, but I haven't done scientific testing in this area (but based on this weekends interesting notes it will likely need to happen)

visually inspected and physically checked lash on all the rockers and points gap.

Now for the interesting part. Had a gentleman come over this weekend and he suggested to check the compression when the engine was running. We had previously checked the compression and got the results that each Cylinder was right around 60 psi. To be precise, 60,65,60, 60 from Cylinder 1 - 4

We took his advice and did a compression test while running and got 55,58,50,45, as well as retested to validate the previous results.

It was mentioned above that Fronty's can/ do have separate rocker shafts for the front/ rear cylinders but other photos I"ve seen of the heads are a bit different than what I seem to have.

I'm curious, for those that may know, is it possible based on what you see in the rocker images above that the location of the rocker shaft could have slightly changed somehow, causing a timing issue in the rear two cylinders? Everything is tight and not moving so I don't think this is the case Or do you guys think its more an individual valve spring/ valve issue/ camshaft issue?

Or perhaps something completely different. Finally glad to at least have some indication as to what might be happening, or at least an indication of something significantly different from the front two cylinders and the rear.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:16 pm

An out there thought. My 1928 Chevrolet conversion, the pads on the rocker arms were messed up, needing regrinding, so would jam the valve open sometimes at speed. Don't ask me how, but a couple would. The pad had grooves across them, and I think what might have been happing is the rocker would catch on the valve and lock it open. Never saw it happing, but the engine would stumble at speeds sometimes like a valve sticking open. Wasn't ignition or carburetion.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:22 pm

Thanks Mark, not the craziest idea and has the potential to match what I'm seeing. Just desperately trying not to pull the head, but that sure seems like where we're "headed".


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by kmatt2 » Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:10 am

Before you pull the head I would degree the cam timing. Get a degree wheel or borrow one and record the degrees of crankshaft rotation in degrees before or after top dead center of valve opening and closing for all the valves front to back. Next loosen the rockers and check the valve spring installed higth for all valve springs. And finally pull the side cover and look for anything going wrong at the push rod to lifter connection if you haven’t done so already. In the past some repo valve lifters were known to have poor heat treating and wore out fast. This should show if the lifters and or the cam is going flat on some cylinder’s.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Craig Leach » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:31 am

Hi Erik,
Did you ever get the popping issue figured out in grandpa's Fronty model T?
If you don't mind me asking does anyone know anything about the distributer on that engine? It appears that I have a drive assembly like that.
I picked it up at a swap meet with the intent to use it for something else but after seeing it on that engine I'm having second thoughts.
Thanks.
Craig.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by John Codman » Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:49 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:04 pm
Old plug wires may be shorting to each other or to ground.
I was going to comment on the wires. The last thing that you want is for the plug wires to be bundled together. You can get a condition known as crossfiring, when one plug wire induces a current in another. Auto manufacturers take great pains to keep the wires separate.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:44 pm

Haven't gotten it all figured out yet, but closer for sure, see my last post about 3 or 4 above this one. I did separate the plug wires and ohm them out. Hopefully get back after it this weekend.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Dan McEachern » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:48 pm

To answer the above regarding the felt from the Nash rocker to the valve tip: Nash rockers have an oil spitter hole on the underside of the rocker. Seems someone got clever and put a piece of felt in the hole over to the valve tip for lubrication.

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Craig Leach » Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:25 pm

Dan,
Regarding the oil line on the Fronty head, I ran into one of those on a T-GO head it's going through the water cavity. The head is drilled and tapped for 1/4 pipe and the fittings are drilled so the copper tube goes through the fittings. Then copper line is threaded through the holes with a 90* bend in it. Then the fittings are slipped over and screwed into the head fallowed by the Farrells & nuts. Then connected to the rocker assembly & oil line from the pump. Neat idea till the copper cracks and fills the cooling system with motor oil. And yes that was a pain to diagnose over the phone because it looks like its plumbed into a oil galley in the head.
Craig.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:34 pm

Figured I'd better come back and update here.

Tried everything mentioned above without positive results so we went ahead and pulled the head off. Looks like we probably have some sort of issue with the valves floating or not seating properly as the valve seats were a bit toasty. Dropped off the head at the shop yesterday so we'll see what they have to say, if they can figure something out.

Thanks for everyone's input, hopefully I'll get it back soon, slap it on and we'll be back and running.


in other news, never did find out what model Fronty head it is. have seen images of where it was stamped in other heads, but this one must have been ground down or something as the location where it should be, there's nothing there.

Image

https://imgur.com/a/Kd00qaO


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:54 pm

963517B2-C795-4972-A4C8-58E68507A048.jpeg

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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Kaiser » Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:18 am

Aha ! Look at that devillish smirk, he knew he put some gremlins in there for us to fight with :lol:
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Tue May 23, 2023 11:45 am

All right, after many months, I'm back again....

I may be dumb for working so hard on this, but it was one of grandpa's T's (technically this was his best friends that he got from him) and it has a lot of family history so keeping it the way he had it means a fair bit to me, even if its not the logical thing to do.

Since the last time we've talked I've gotten about a 60% improvement in the running of the engine, but it still runs crazy rich on the 3 and 4 cylinders and stumbles/ sputters on acceleration. It doesn't pop back through the carb as consistently, but still does it. The timing is ultra sensitive to adjustments too.

since the last I posted here's what I've done to resolve these issues (all of this was done one at a time):

Removed the head and had the valves redone (new seats and valves) (even 60psi compression on all cylinders)
Had the distributor rebuilt
new spark plugs
replaced plug wires
put in a Pertronix electronic ignition

most recently I was thinking that perhaps the lobes on the cam may have gone flat so I pulled the cam out of the engine. I was a bit surprised to find a Model A Cam instead of a Model T one. I knew this motor had a Model A Crank in it but not a cam too.

With this discovery comes more questions.

There are some knicks/ marks/ pits on the lobes, but it seems relatively consistent over the whole shaft.

How in the world did grandpa and his friend make this work? I don't really see any bushings or bearings in the block to support this configuration. Does it "just work"? If i wanted to have either this camshaft reground, or find another one, any recommendations on what to look for to have somewhat of a drop in replacement? (I'm no machinist, more of a bolt it together kind of guy). Looking at a standard Model A cam, it would appear there's quite a bit of work to be done to make this work.

There's a pretty significant heat mark on the cam near the 3/4 cylinders, but only on significantly dark on one side of the cam. This would indicate to me an out of round camshaft with wear on one side, but there's nothing for the cam to wear against (not a bearing journal or anything in that location)

I measured all the lobes with calipers and they all measure relatively the same (1.089 - 1.090) with the exception of the second to last lobe is 1.092 so a flat cam lobe doesn't seem to be the culprit here.

Sorry for all the rambling,

Image

Image

Image


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue May 23, 2023 12:00 pm

The use of an A cam was discussed recently. The cam bearing journals are ground down to fit directly into the T block, without any other bearings. They're said to work well. The blued "hot-spot" on your cam appears to have possibly been done to straighten it at some point.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 23, 2023 1:05 pm

"crazy rich" on 3/4 is an intake leak on 1/2. You're having to run very rich to get 1/2 to operate and this makes 3/4 run rich

carefully replace the intake manifold gasket(s) and this will go away and the engine should perk up considerably
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Tue May 23, 2023 2:23 pm

Found that A cam thread, pretty interesting.

Scott, that would make sense, but unfortunately this is a Frontenac head, so there's only one intake port on it, I sprayed the snot out of it with brake clean and carb cleaner trying to sniff out any vacuum leaks at the beginning of this ordeal but didn't find anything.

Based on the compression tests, I don't believe there's anything wrong with the head itself, but then again I'm not terribly adept in this stuff.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by speedytinc » Tue May 23, 2023 2:27 pm

Check for leaks around the bolt heads that go thru the ports to bolt down to the engine.
An old racer guy told me is was a fairly common problem on Rajo's

I had mentioned this in an earlier post.
I also mentioned the popping & snorting My motor did & the fix.
However, I didnt have a "crazy" rich on 2 cylinders & normal burn on the other 2 condition.
Last edited by speedytinc on Tue May 23, 2023 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue May 23, 2023 3:18 pm

A long shot maybe, but since it was sitting for so long, check the internal passages of the intake for mud dauber nests, or any other critter refuse that may be blocking intake flow to 1 & 2.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 23, 2023 4:04 pm

Erik

sorry for the bad advice...I remember your thread and marveled at some of the great pix and then promptly forgot that you had a "special"

best of luck and thank you for keeping the Forum in the loop
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Norman Kling » Tue May 23, 2023 4:28 pm

I don't know whether you got it fixed yet. From the description in the first couple posts, the compression is very even between the cylinders, so I don't think your problem is rings or valves. Not the head gasket either. Concentrate on ignition problems such as front two spark plug wires crossed. Another problem with ignition could be a good spark by shorting the wire to ground or laying the plugs outside the cylinders, but a weak spark at high compression can cause misfire. So be sure to check the ignition thoroughly. Other problem would be lack of fuel to the front two cylinders. If your carburetor has different throats for the two halves of the engine, one side could be restricted causing you to get no fuel to cylinders one and two or a very weak fuel stream to those two cylinders.
Norm


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Luke » Tue May 23, 2023 5:53 pm

Erik,

Norm has some good points. I'd just like to make a couple of comments from several thousand miles away and as someone who has no particular knowledge of this engine, but is well versed in fundamentals :geek: .

(1) I looked at the video. As I understand it this motor was designed to be run hard, yet you don't advance it much beyond idle, have you actually tried it under load with throttle up? Is it possible that it always ran like this at idle?

(2) There have been various comments around timing, and I think at one stage you seemed uncertain about whether the advance lever was reversed over a standard T. It's easy to determine this - in a motor with a distributor such as yours you would ordinarily turn the distributor body in the direction of rotation to retard the ignition. Given that, it should be possible to determine if your lever is 'standard' in operation, or reversed.

(3) As you appear to have reasonable compression, and have had the head worked on (I assume it been crack/pressure tested etc), you're essentially left with timing and carburetion to determine how well it will run. While your motor is heavily modified it will still work according to the usual laws surrounding ICE operation, thus I suggest for timing you:

(a) first check/set the valve timing (which you can do when you put the cam back in - having first determined the position of the lobes etc).
(b) set the ignition timing using a degree wheel (you'll need to find TDC) such that with the lever fully retarded (normally UP) the points just open on #1 when the timing is around 15 deg ADC.
(c) consider the use of a simple dwell meter to set the points. Apart from the greater accuracy, in the absence of more sophisticated equipment this may show if you've any issues with the distributor.
(d) better still use a 'scope to look at various aspects of the timing, including the EHT output to each plug - this would show if there are any intermittent or off-time events. BTW, have you replaced your coil (it's a quick thing to do to eliminate it as an issue)?

(4) Once you've got the timing sorted from first principles it may run a little better, and just need a little fettling from there. If however it doesn't then that leaves fuel. To some extent it's difficult to advise here, I don't want to get into stoichiometric mixture ratios etc, but maybe the simplest thing to do, if possible, would be to make an adapter plate to fit a standard carburetor. From what I see (bear in mind I've never come close to one of these in real life) it looks as if that shouldn't be too hard, and I seem to recollect from your earlier thread that you have another motor laying around? Note that I wouldn't necessarily expect it to run perfectly with a standard carb, just that may well show whether or not you have an issue with the present carburetor - and it may be easier to mess with mixture etc. I realise this appears quite a drastic measure, however it could be the quickest in the long run.

Finally, with the original intent of the vehicle in mind, and given that your mum wants to use it in shows, it could be that some 'de-tuning' is advisable (or possibly even fitting a more standard engine and keeping this one for display)? I totally get the desire to keep the history intact, and I'm mindful of how special this machine clearly is, however in terms of practicality for driving on modern roads I wonder how it would go?

In this regard there are clearly others here who will have real experience of motors equipped such as yours, and may be able to advise whether I'm talking rubbish and it should be as docile as needed from day one, or if it may need a little work to claw it back from a 97mph beast to something that will putter along neatly at a parade...

Luke.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Les Schubert » Tue May 23, 2023 8:17 pm

The rear cam lobes have a LOT of duration!!
Unfortunately from the pictures I can’t see whether the front lobes are identical. Back in the’70’s I built a T engine with a similar cam grind and it was a total DOG at lower speeds. Reved it was fine. The engine is a high compression flathead. Ultimately I opened up the intake ports and turned it into a 4 port engine and it worked great.
Any more camshaft pics showing details of the front lobes?
Any chance that a port divider is installed in the front cylinders?
Just some thoughts based on my experience.


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:10 pm

Thanks for all the replies guys, been on vacation for a couple weeks then getting caught back up with work. I truly appreciate all the responses and free advice. I only work on this thing an hour or two at a time every couple weeks and with every response you guys give I learn something new and take it all seriously.

Here's a few more pictures of the cam, as requested.

Image

Image

better image of one of the nicks in the lobes and the hot spot of the cam
Image

hopefully a better lengthwise image of the cam

Image

measuring each lobe of the cam (from the top of the lobe to the base), they all seem to be within a couple of thousandths of each other.

since the cam is out of the engine already, going to throw it in the lathe to see if it is out of round somehow, but aside from that do ya'll think it would benefit from being reground, or might that make things worse? Would love to just put a new one in, but I'd be worried about what else the old timers may have modified to make this work in the engine not to mention the modifications that would need to be done to a new model a cam to make it fit in the first place.

I'm was 100% on board with this being a potential ignition issue, kind of why I had the distributor rebuilt and even put in a pertronix to rule out points/ condenser. Haven't driven it in many years since it developed this issue, through the process of everything we've done so far it does run a bit better than the original video shows but not "perfect" and still has cylinders 3 and 4 running rich.

Luke thanks for the detailed reply to answer some of your questions:

1. we haven't run it under load since it developed the issue and was parked 20 years ago or so. My dad said it used to run fine before this started. I can't move the timing much as it runs worse unless set very specifically.

2. eventually just took out the timing lever part of it completely and just hand advanced/ retarded the timing.

3. All good points, after i reassemble this thing if it still has the issues. I've done new coil, points, condenser, cap, rotor, electronic ignition, wires, plugs and had the distributor rebuilt.

4. we tried a different (but same model carb) and didn't produce much different results, however the person who helped me with the carb is somewhat knowledgeable in the 97's and thought that maybe it is overcarbed for the engine. I know my Grandpas Gemsa has dual 97's on it, but it also has dual points ignition system

and as to your last comments, I've also thought about that. There's a rusted beat up stock engine sitting next to it that I would probably have more luck with, but I'm not quite ready to give up on this one next. Heck half of me wants to grab the gemsa engine that threw a rod and put that thing back together. HAHA!


Scott_Conger
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:07 pm

Just reread every post including my especially bad advice!

still thinking about the rich/lean issue I cannot help but believe that if spark is getting there, then there is too much air getting to some cylinders despite intake passages being contained within the head. What is exposed to the outside world are the valves. I am wondering if you have enough clearance on intakes that you are sucking in air past the valve stems. To that end, I'd be inclined to flood the two "lean" intake valves with 90wt oil and start the car. That should plug the excess clearance temporarily if in fact excess clearance exists, or perhaps flood them with a small flow of propane while running and see if that makes some change in combustion. I suspect that either test will show good seal(s) or not.
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

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weto
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by weto » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:51 pm

Thanks Scott, I'll keep that in mind when i put this thing back together.

That's some serious dedication revisiting the whole thread. Due to my slacking off on working on it and the machine shop taking a few months to redo the head this is becoming a very loooooong thread, both in age and comments.


Scott_Conger
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:34 pm

well, for heaven's sake, I missed where you pulled the head - once again I've offered a bit of bad advice...any valve guide wear will be taken care of by your shop.

I think I should just sit this thread out and keep my opinions to myself ! :lol:
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by John Codman » Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:54 pm

One thing that I don't like is the siamesing of the #1 and #2 spark plug wires. I would go to any length to keep all of the plug wires separated. You could have crossfiring.

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babychadwick
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Re: Help needed in chasing 30 year old Ghosts

Post by babychadwick » Sun Jun 25, 2023 7:38 am

The oil line and machining of the head looks like what I have and have seen done by Sherman back in the day. I have a fronty done up the same. If I was to guess where your problem is especially considering what you have done I would put my money on carb/fuel. As you have said it ran fine when parked but isn't now. Also I saw you tried swapping a different carb on. Have you tried simply soaking/cleaning the carb. I think we all know the how wonderful old fuel is. FYI I am also 3rd gen CA and our grandparents most likely ran together at signal hill and other events. I'm at the speedster reunion now and you really should think about bringing the car to the next one in 2 years.
"Those who fail to plan, plan to fail"

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