Low gear speed

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tgarron33
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Low gear speed

Post by tgarron33 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:30 am

Hi gang,
Next question about our 22 Touring. It doesn’t seem like it gets up to more than about 10 mph in low gear, and then wants to bog down when shifting to high. Could the band on low gear be the problem - either too tight or not tight enough ? Is this a two pronged issue? TIA.

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Re: Low gear speed

Post by TonyB » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:44 am

Low gear provides a gearing of 1/3 of high or direct drive. So if your T will bog down at 30mph in high gear then your problem is probably in the motor. If it does 40-45 mph in top gear yet only will do 10mph in low you have an interesting problem.
Right now I can’t think what would cause such a situation. ☹️
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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:46 am

If you are 1/2 way through the intersection in low, you've spent too much time in low

Get rolling in low (no more than 5-6 MPH) and shift smoothly through neutral to high (takes about 1 long second) while simultaneously closing and then reopening the throttle. Everything will take up easily then.

If you are trying to exceed 10 MPH (and you should not be trying) and also bogs down in high gear, then you most likely have some sort of a carb problem or more rarely, a blocked or restricted exhaust system particularly if this is a barn car and has set for a long time.
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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Rich Bingham » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:23 pm

IMHO 10mph is top speed in low. I drive a lot of rough roads where 10mph is too fast; needing throttle flexibility from 6-9mph, the motor lugs in high. Scott's advice is spot on for cruising in high over better roads.
"Get a horse !"


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by tgarron33 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:31 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:46 am
If you are 1/2 way through the intersection in low, you've spent too much time in low

Get rolling in low (no more than 5-6 MPH) and shift smoothly through neutral to high (takes about 1 long second) while simultaneously closing and then reopening the throttle. Everything will take up easily then.

If you are trying to exceed 10 MPH (and you should not be trying) and also bogs down in high gear, then you most likely have some sort of a carb problem or more rarely, a blocked or restricted exhaust system particularly if this is a barn car and has set for a long time.
I’ll try that. Thanks, Scott. Maybe I’ve been trying to get it up to too high of a speed before shifting to high gear.

I’ll update after road testing.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:45 pm

A stock T engine has a lot of low speed torque. You can shift quickly and very smoothly from Lo to Hi once you get used to using the hand throttle. You don't want much spark advance or throttle at low engine speeds, which for a T is in the 600 to 900 RPM range. For reference, 1,000 RPM is about 25 MPH in Hi and 1,000 RPM in Lo is about 8 MPH. There is no need to slip the clutch when shifting. As mentioned, about one long second is sufficient time to make the Lo to Hi shift, and it will be as smooth as a modern automatic if you coordinate the throttle and left pedal correctly.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:56 pm

Another thing which will affect the shift would be the gear ratio of the rear axle. Some have installed a 3:1 ratio in the rear axle to give the car more speed on level ground. However if you are on a hilly area, you might not even be able to shift out of low when you start out going uphill. If you have a Ruckstell or other other reduction gearing, you can shift down just before you stop and then start out in Low Low until you get up to a good speed to use Ford High. If you don't have a reduction gear, you might need to change your axle ratio, Easy way to check the ratio is on level ground, with the tire valve right at the bottom, in high gear, turn the crank to roll the car forward (works easier with one person pushing the car while another turns the crank). Count exactly how many revolutions of the crank it takes to turn the rear wheel exactly one revolutions. The standard ratio is 3.6:1.
Norm

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Re: Low gear speed

Post by paddy1998 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:01 pm

tgarron33 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:31 pm
Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:46 am
If you are 1/2 way through the intersection in low, you've spent too much time in low

Get rolling in low (no more than 5-6 MPH) and shift smoothly through neutral to high (takes about 1 long second) while simultaneously closing and then reopening the throttle. Everything will take up easily then.

If you are trying to exceed 10 MPH (and you should not be trying) and also bogs down in high gear, then you most likely have some sort of a carb problem or more rarely, a blocked or restricted exhaust system particularly if this is a barn car and has set for a long time.
I’ll try that. Thanks, Scott. Maybe I’ve been trying to get it up to too high of a speed before shifting to high gear.

I’ll update after road testing.
Before taking Scott's advice I was doing the same thing; winding it up in low like a Volkswagen Beetle and then seeming to lug in high. Now I just gain enough road speed (7-10mph or so) ease the pedal to neutral, reduce throttle, and release the pedal into high, all in a swift motion. Car runs smoother and cooler than ever.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:13 pm

tgarron33 wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:31 pm
Maybe I’ve been trying to get it up to too high of a speed before shifting to high gear.

I’ll update after road testing.
A very common thing with new T drivers. The urge is to wind out low gear, as one would a "modern", manual transmission car. Not the thing to do with a T however. Also, wait for the engine to slow down to match the speed of the car before shifting to high. There should be no slipping of the high speed clutch when going to high. Just a seamless, positive engagement.


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tgarron33
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Re: Low gear speed

Post by tgarron33 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:39 am

Update:

Seems to do better when not winding it out before shifting into high. Now I just have to solve the issue of it wanting to hesitate or bog down when taking off from a dead stop. Guess I get to play around with the band adjustment!

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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Mark Nunn » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:57 am

Does you car have a magneto? If the magnets were replaced by oil slingers (somewhat common on cars with a distributor), your flywheel will not have as much momentum to pull away from a stop as in a car with magnets installed. Magnets add mass to the flywheel that slingers don't.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by MichaelPawelek » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:14 am

Also remember this is roughly 20 hp. motor so the weight per hp is not like a modern car. Can you imagine your riding lawn mower at 20hp pushing this much weight? 😊

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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Bill Robinson » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:33 am

I don’t know your age. But- if you’re used to chirping the tires when you shift gears- don’t expect it in a Model T. At 10 mph the motor has not reached the full HP yet.
Are you aware that when running in high (direct) that no bands are engaged. Direct is engaged by clutch “plates” not a band.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:47 am

The bogging down, if you mean the engine seems to lose power after shifting, is probably not related to the bands. It is more likely to be an ignition, carburetion, valve or timing issue. Carburetor and timing adjustment are important to smooth operation, as are proper use by the driver of the spark timing lever, the throttle lever, and the carburetor adjustment control. The bands and clutch will either slip or hold. If they are so tight that they drag, they won't last long and the car will always be bogged down, as if the brake was on all the time. The car would probably be difficult to start, and it would probably try to roll forward when in "neurtral". Model Ts are not difficult to drive, but the driving procedure is different from modern cars.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:50 am

Thomas

before you get into REAL trouble, find someone locally in a club who can drive your car and perhaps give you some pointers. At this stage of knowledge, a lot of frustration can be had if you maladjust things and struggle to get the combination back. At the worst, you can induce damage which would never have occured in the first place before adjusting.

FWIW, you are trying to "grab" the transmission drum with the bands, to get going.

Imagine if I told you that you had to grab a spinning shaft on an electric motor and the only way to get going was to stop the shaft. The skin on your fingers would be burnt off and we'd no longer be friends! But what if I said, "oh, you have to turn off the motor, let it all but come to a rest, and then grab the shaft to stop it!". That's a much different story.

Similarly, you have to "grab" the drum and stop it in order to get moving. If the motor is running fast, it is very difficult to stop the drum, if the engine is running at only an idle and you are on level paved surface, you should be able to gently press the pedal once or twice to just get the car just rolling and then plant your foot firmly down and away you go...Additionally, since the car is idling down, you want the spark RETARDED some since if it is advanced, the spark is occuring before TDC...that added to the sudden drag of going into low gear will almost certainly kill the engine.

unlike a modern car, you DO NOT rev the engine and you DO NOT slip the bands. EVER.
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Re: Low gear speed

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:59 am

10 MPH in high is about 400 RPM. In low, engine RPM at 10 MPH is about 1200. Peak torque is around 900 RPM. An intermediate gear would be nice for starting up hills, but is not needed in most situations. On anything close to level ground, a typical Model T will move away from a stop smoothly and pick up speed at a good rate up to about 30 MPH or more. With proper technique, the shift from low to high can be made quickly and smoothly with no lurching and no slipping of bands or the clutch.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by bdtutton » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:36 pm

I am still a Rookie Model T owner and I agree with the comments above, but the other people on the road are driving modern cars and don't want to wait for my Model T to leisurely accelerate while my engine is turning 400 RPM in high gear after the light turns green. If there is a hill the problem is worse because from a stop I can only climb the hill at 7-10MPH in low and not enough power to climb in high without a running start.
.
I also have the problem of driving around my town where there are a lot of angled parking spots so you don't want to go over about 10-15MPH because people can't see cars coming, but back out anyway. Low is too slow and the car is pretty sluggish in high at that slow speed. I think I am going to install a Ruckstell over the winter. Lower gearing around town and climbing hills and regular speeds out in the country.
.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:31 pm

Your car should run well at around 1000 RPM in high. A Ruxtel might be a good choice if you can't avoid driving in traffic. As mentioned, in-person tips from an experienced T driver can be very valuable, and driving experience, preferably away from traffic, is also very valuable. I suggest you look for and consider joining a Model T club in your area. Sometimes, a minor adjustment or a simple driving tip or two can make handling a T much easier. Driving experience away from traffic is very valuable, even if it's on a large empty parking lot.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by John Codman » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:34 pm

I do not claim to be a mathematician, but I punched some numbers around and here's what I found: The tires on my '27 are 31 inches in diameter, that yields a circumference of 8.1 feet. 10 mph is 880 feet per minute, and 108.6 tire RPM at 10 mph. multiply that by 12:1 gearing (4:1 drive axle, 3:1 transmission low gear) at 10 mph the engine is turning 1303 rpm. Shift into high gear and now the overall gear ratio is 4:1 and you get 434.5 engine RPM in high gear at 10 mph. Yup, it's gonna lug a bit. mine does the same.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by John Codman » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:39 pm

MichaelPawelek wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:14 am
Also remember this is roughly 20 hp. motor so the weight per hp is not like a modern car. Can you imagine your riding lawn mower at 20hp pushing this much weight? 😊
Yes I can. My old 20 HP john Deere lawn tractor has towed my model T. It didn't have any particular trouble with the T. Of course the lawn tractor will not go 45 MPH. It's all about gearing.


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Re: Low gear speed

Post by MichaelPawelek » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:36 pm

John, Do you mow your grass with the Model T in low or high gear? 😊

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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Oldav8tor » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:15 pm

Hmmm.... Maybe I don't know how to drive a model T after all. I've found a speed of 12-15 in low results in a much smoother shift to high. Shift at too low a speed and the engine wants to lug. My car has a standard transmission with a 10 tooth pinion, the engine a Z high compression head.

When I accelerate before shifting my car doesn't feel like it's bogging down or winding out. FWIW, it will easily accelerate to 40-45 mph in high although I prefer to cruise at 30-33 on the highway. I determine my speed by an old Garmin GPS that I use for a speedometer / odometer.

When I try to shift into high at a lower speed (10 mph) I have to reduce the throttle after shifting and let it accelerate slowly - too much throttle and the car struggles until it gets up to speed.
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Re: Low gear speed

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:06 pm

Tim

the dynamics of driving a T are quite different with a high compression head. The engine speed will slow quicker to make the shift, and you can spend far more time in low, just like you can spend far more time in high (45+MPH). I know you're being facetious, but there is a difference and driving styles can be further varied with improvements in combustion. A tired engine with stock head is an entirely different thing and it is easy to forget that once the car has some pep in its step.

For the newer drivers, the lack of an intermediate gear...going from stump pulling, to a highway gear all in one shift, means that "getting on the gas" (with a stock carburetor) results in absolutely nothing until about 25 MPH is reached. Until and unless that is understood, the owner is going to forever be unhappy with his "lugging" car.

A good cam, a good head, and a carburetor that is more sophisticated than a soup-can with nail holes will make all the difference in the world. Or just accept the car for what it is: very primitive early 20th Century technology. Comparisons to a Nissan NSX are all bound to result in disappointment.
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Re: Low gear speed

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:28 pm

Avoid uphill starts when it's convenient to do so. When on the road, drive like truckers used to ... drive ahead, and use what power you have to the best advantage. If you're facing a stiff headwind, keep your speed down to about 30 mph, if traffic allows. Make up time coming back with the wind. If you must drive in traffic, it's especially important to keep your car in good condition and proper adjustment. Raising compression, within reason, on a stock T can make a significant improvement in performance. Do not carry unneccessary weight and avoid adding accessories that will increase wind drag. Keep wheels aligned and tires inflated properly and balanced. Rikketty wood wheels absorb power, degrade steering, and are dangerous. Get 'em restored.

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