Self starter options for a non starter car

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Ruxstel24
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Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:01 pm

My cousin is getting up in the years and had several back surgeries. He’s just about done with his 15 RPU and curious if there are any other options for a starter for his car, aside from the obvious removal of the engine for a ring gear flywheel and hogshead. He would like to keep the aluminum hogshead and do a period add-on system of some sort.
:?:

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by perry kete » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:46 pm

Yes...Teach his wife how to start it! :roll:
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by speedytinc » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:19 pm

perry kete wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:46 pm
Yes...Teach his wife how to start it! :roll:
That would make things easier when stalling the car @ an intersection also. :D

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:49 pm

Youz guyz are a lot of help !! :D


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:03 pm

I think Bud in Michigan was looking into that very thing a few months ago. Maybe he will chime in on the subject.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TWrenn » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:33 pm

There was an external starter made for Ts, Jack Putnam has one on one of his. Maybe he'll chime in.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by BuddyTheRoadster » Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:37 pm

There was an aftermarket Gray & Davis starter-generator unit that bolted to the motor on the driver's side and ran a chain drive off the crank pulley. They'd be a viable option, albeit hard to find.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Rich Bingham » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:13 am

Also hard to find, the mechanical "pull-from-the-seat" accessories. Perhaps that wouldn't do ?
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Dropacent » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:59 am

I drove an old clunker for awhile and always had to park it on a hill.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:17 am

perry kete wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:46 pm
Yes...Teach his wife how to start it! :roll:
That might be harder than pulling the engine and installing a ring gear and different hogs head! You might be able to teach her how to choke from inside while you crank! But then how would you get in to drive?
Norm

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Novice » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:21 am

Don't make her mad or She just might give it a little spark advance while Your cranking.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:25 pm

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by speedytinc » Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:56 pm

There must be some tinkerer/engineer out there that could mount a sprocket to a crank pulley & mount a starter motor & cheaper than finding & rebuilding an original accessory starter unit. Although the are a special kind of cool.

Myself, I considered my age & didnt expect to rebuild my 14 motor again, so I added a later starter setup during the rebuild. The H/H is painted with aluminum transmission paint & correct pedals. No one knows unless the left side hood is opened. The original H/H is hanging in the garage for the next caretaker. I have everything in place for the day I am not able to hand crank. Hopefully a long time from now.

Older enthusiasts should consider putting a starter flywheel in while the motor is out in advance of actual need. A starter H/H can be easily added in the future without major motor work. As would have been the case here.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Dropacent » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:09 pm

Dave,in the day there were air starters, spring starters, acetylene gas starters and also several makes of electric add-on starters. All pretty novel, and also pretty pricey, unless you get lucky. Lots of foot and and hand pull starter Rube Goldberg type accessories, but with back issues, not sure that would be wise. I have a pull starter I bought from you , and would be glad to sell back, if that isn’t an issue.
In the long run,IMHO, cheapest to add a ford starter and store the removed stuff in the rare chance a purist will care.
Engine Joe Bell says he can’t give away non starter hogsheads, even aluminum ones, and most all are planning ahead now.
Whatever it takes to keep them running, I say.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:43 pm

Attachments
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Les Schubert » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:27 pm

8FDE8D63-ACA1-4673-A5C9-9416288D3E24.jpeg
B4119A5B-5E8B-4A3E-A975-BED88EE210D0.jpeg
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9EC726AF-EEEC-4826-ADFA-85D38916A038.jpeg
Here are some pictures of a concept I’ve played with. The starter is Subaru. One wire alternator

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:48 pm

You really should pursue this endeavor Les - I believe there would be a market for them !


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Allan » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:11 pm

A local T club member who ran an engineering business modified the alloy hogshead on his wife's 1912 roadster to accept a T starter. That way he kept the original look of the alloy cover and its early pedals. He did a beautiful job of adding alloy castings to the cover and machining them for the stater and bendix cover.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by speedytinc » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:15 pm

The "wells system" ad was the kind of simple starter motor mount I was thinking of.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by speedytinc » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:19 pm

Allan wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:11 pm
A local T club member who ran an engineering business modified the alloy hogshead on his wife's 1912 roadster to accept a T starter. That way he kept the original look of the alloy cover and its early pedals. He did a beautiful job of adding alloy castings to the cover and machining them for the stater and bendix cover.

Allan from down under.
That seems like a lot of unnecessary work to do essentially what some automatic transmission paint will do
& arguably, a rare part was sacrificed.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:42 pm

This is some great stuff !!
Cousin Phil had asked about possibly a starter/generator setup...seems doable. Maybe a Cub tractor starter with a chain drive or something similar.
Not sure a pull start would be much better than a crank with his back issues.
I’m gonna forward this stuff to him.
Maybe I can get him to join us. ;)


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Allan » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:50 am

I agree John, but it was a credit to his ability to do what he did that deserved some credit. Much easier to go to a later cast iron hogshead, but nowhere near the satisfaction with a job well done.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by CudaMan » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:00 am

Not condoning the practice, but the caretaker of the Fountainhead Auto Museum in Fairbanks starts his Ts like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyIwYU3P-9s&t=2s
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Luxford » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:07 am

What about something simple? like a drill, change the crank dog to accept the drill chuck or use one of the type with socket square. leave the shortened crank shaft as per the crank handle, connect the drill, start it. lot less effort needed to turn a T motor than the drill can handle,
This one has a long arm making it easy to hold against the motors resistance.
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by John kuehn » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:30 am

Been following this post with interest.
I don’t know the gentleman’s financial situation but if I was getting up in years like myself (73) and still able to at least drive my T I would buy a later engine pan, transmission cover and other necessary parts to add a starter and to heck with not being “exactly “ for a non starter car. It would be more reliable to do it that way. More than a few of the earlier cars have been updated in this way.
After all Ford did have a better idea when he added a self starter in 1919.
All of the parts that were used in the original set up could be saved and kept with the car.

There comes a time to think of the obvious and growing up around Model T’s, Henry’s idea to have a self starter was a better idea especially with folks who aren’t so young anymore.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:54 pm

Careful with the polarity of 6 volt Starter/Generators. Old tractor types are likely positive ground. Expect Golf Cart to be negative. Like the drill approach, battery impact wrench may be better suited for the task, but needs an anti-kickback solution added.
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by OilyBill » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:20 pm

Tim!
What kind of pull starter do you have? I have a 1914 with no starter (of course) and would like to find a pull starter to put on it if I do decide I want a starter.
I have some starter hogsheads, but I would rather keep the T mostly original, and start with the crank.
But being 64, I also want to hedge my bets, and be able to try and start it some other way if possible, and an original accessory starter would be just the ticket.
Can you describe your pull starter? Is it complete? How much do you want for it?
Thanks very much!
Bill

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by AndreFordT » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:00 am

In the past I have seen Everday starters that were made for Model T cars. One was spring loaded and an other was electric starter and generator
in one.

Just look out for one and make it work again.

An other solution is change the flywheel, the hoghead and build a starter in it. Do not forget to build in the reinforments in the oilpan corners.

Good luck.

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:52 am

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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Erik Barrett » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:31 pm

If you are concerned about the originality of the aluminum hogshead, why would you bolt on some abortion of a starter that you can’t get replacement parts for and looks like an afterthought? I’ve done many starter conversions for folks that can’t crank anymore but want to enjoy their model T’s. Pull the engine and put in a ring gear. Paint the hogshead with aluminum paint. While you are in there you can also refresh anything else that needs attention. In the future if originality is an issue the aluminum unit can go back on and nobody can see the ring gear. I put ring gears in every engine I build. Even early open valve units. Sooner or later all of us will be beyond the hand crank. When you have a ring gear in there it’s just a weekend job to put a later hogshead and starter on it. That thing you pull on from the driver’s seat is not a solution. It still requires physical effort to start an engine. Those things simply move that work from the front on the car to the driver’s seat.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:01 pm

"Those things simply move that work from the front on the car to the driver’s seat." .... And they add friction and more parts to fail, some of which would likley create a hazard in the event of failure or lack of maintenance. You cannot add a starter of any kind to car that originally had none without changing the car. The most original thing you could add if a starter is needed would be the Ford starting system, and I'd guess that's what most people with older T's did.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:51 pm

Does anyone know how many ft lbs / newton meters / horsepower is required to turn a stock T engine over using the crankshaft pulley? I'm pondering the SS tractors style starter/generator....
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:33 pm

TheSpeedsterProject wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:51 pm
Does anyone know how many ft lbs / newton meters / horsepower is required to turn a stock T engine over using the crankshaft pulley? I'm pondering the SS tractors style starter/generator....
Can't be much. Hand crank is about 12inches long, pulling up with left hand like 10 pound weight? - <10 ft. lbs. any more any more and you'd hurt your shoulder
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:46 pm

Good question. I'm thinking an early 1950's Ford generator might be up to the task if it had a good battery and heavier wiring to supply it. It could be set up as a starter-generator with a toothed belt drive or a modern flat-type belt and tensioner. Duty cycle would be limited. One of those big Delco generators like were used on Mack trucks would no doubt spin the T motor. They're big, though. It would be possible to offset the weight by using it as an auxilliary power source to boost available HP for a limited time. You'd need a substantial battery and some relays, but you'd have a self starter, a high amp generator, and a hybrid T with some reserve power for hills and other short period transient HP demands. Some regenerative braking would be available. Modifications to the engine and car, if any, would be minimal.


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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:06 pm

I think it was Ron that posted that a T starter was 12 ftlbs of torque - but that's divided by the gearing on the flywheel - if hand cranking requires 10 lbs - that stock starter has it very easy! I'm really on the fence about which engine to put in this project. I have a 17 and a 27 to choose from to put in this future brass car. The sticking point is "I don't want to have to crank it".
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:02 pm

Yes, Ron did post that...so did Frank, just 2 posts above, in the torque breakdown/spec sheet he posted, so no need to wonder or try to remember.

Twelve ft/lb is a good stall test of a rebuilt starter and is pretty much the gold standard for repairs, and is what I and I'm sure others, used when I rebuilt them a number of years ago. Seems like a lifetime ago, looking back...
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:02 pm

I may regret it someday but I have left the stock Armstrong starter on my 1915. For the past couple of years, off and on, I had a hard starting problem and had to crank a lot for a cold start. Recently I started just jacking a rear wheel off the floor and starting in neutral as a regular part of the starting procedure. I usually get a start with two choke pulls and a third pull with the switch on BAT. A couple of times I even got a free start when I flipped the switch. Of course, starting on battery you don't have to pull fast. Even a slow pull should work. If your cousin can manage three pulls, maybe that can get him by while he searches for one of those rare add-on starters.
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Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:40 pm

Another option to ease cool weather starting with the crank would be to add a block heater to the lower radiator hose. Pre-heating the engine would help a lot, but it would probably require a 1,000 watt heater and several hours to warm the engine/transmission in chilly weather. Covering the radiator and hood would assist warming. Of course, out on the road, you couldn't do much more than cover the radiator and limit stops to ten minutes or so, unless you could arrange to park on a nice hill. Use of an appropriate crankcase oil and maintaining a high state of tune will ease cold starting by whatever method.

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Location: Scherpenheuvel
MTFCA Number: 23792
MTFCI Number: 19330

Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by AndreFordT » Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:41 am

I am with Steve.
Some time ago he posted a video on the forum, how to start a model T. I think it is still on Youtube.

Now for what it is worth.
Twenty years ago, I was 40, in the begining of my model T experience and had already two back surgeries, an old man (84 at that time) saw me struggle to start the 1914 runabout at my workshop. He came to me and showed how it was done. To start he ordered me to jack up one rear wheel than he , 84 years old, toke the hand crank pulled the choke wire and give the engine three pulls with the crank. Before taking the hand crank he set off the ignition and pulled the ignition lever 3/4 down. After the choke pulls, he set on the ignition and moved the ignition lever slowly to the top. While he was moving the lever the engine started up without any pull. I never saw that before and asked how this was possible and how he knew this.
Here his story:
Before WWII he drove, for several years, a model T truck to make deliveries for a brewer company named "Stella Artois" ( now it is called Interbrew). Ever evening, summer and winter, as they came home on the company they jacked up one rear wheel and drained the water out of the engine. In the morning the first job was to heat up the drained water to nearly boiling, put the water back in the engine to "fool" it and did what he showed me before. After three or four Choke pulls the trucks started up if all was tuned right (coils and carburetor setting). He told me also for the winter start he setted the carburetor 1/4 turn more rich.
The old man said that this was a start on switch no a free start, a free start is when you have run the car shut it down and after some time you set on the ignition and the engine start without touching it.

It toke me a while before I found the way he did it but now I use it on my three model T's and used it with succes on a Maxwell. I first prime the engine and than try to start it that way. 2 out of 3 times it works. The other times it just need one or two pulls.

Andre
Belgium


tom_strickling
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:31 am
First Name: Tom
Last Name: Strickling
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 11 Torpedo, 18 Touring, 21 TT Huckster, 24 snowmpbile Staude and Shaw tractor conversions, Model T powered sickel bar mower
Location: New Philadelphia Ohio

Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by tom_strickling » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:02 am

“The trouble with retirement is that you never get a day off.” – Abe Lemons.

User avatar

AndyClary
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:15 am
First Name: Andrew
Last Name: Clary
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Runabout 1926 Coupe. Mercury Speedster #1249
Location: Usa
MTFCA Number: 24057

Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by AndyClary » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:26 am

I’m probably not in the majority but a good broken in engine cranks pretty easily. Maybe more important is the state of tune. My 14 starts with a quarter turn and, as mentioned above, you don’t have to crank fast. I see people stem winding their early cars like a jack in the box, seems like a tune up problem.

Andy


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:59 am

Due to a defective point set and subsequent coil mis-adjustment, I've found that an otherwise good running Model T with excellent clutch action and band adjustment can become difficult to start on the crank and challenging to drive smoothly with ignition problems, even though it will run down the road well enough. Issues with the ignition will make starting more difficult and erratic. Such issues will also make starting the car moving from a stop without lurching or stalling more difficult, and will make shifting to high smoothly at an appropritate speed a challenge. Low speed performance in high will suffer. Overall performance, especially hill climbing, will be degraded. A Model T in fairly good condition and a good state of tune is not difficult to start under ordinary conditions. Extremely cold weather can make starting a challenge. Proper oil selection and proper technique will make cold starting easier. Remember, The Model T was born in Detroit, and they were sold and used widely in Canada.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:06 am

Cranking the engine over several full rounds WITH THE IGNITION OFF will allow the rods and flywheel to pick up some oil, and can be useful in clearing a flooded condition. Beyond clearing a flooded engine, it should not be necessary. Giving the engine a brief spin with the ignition off to pre-lube the rods may help it last, but as far as I know, Ford did not recommend it.


Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Foye
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
Location: Middleborough MA
MTFCA Number: 292
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 106
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Self starter options for a non starter car

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:14 am

Sounds like the way I do it. https://youtu.be/eKMI_nWiZ2k
AndreFordT wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:41 am
I am with Steve.
Some time ago he posted a video on the forum, how to start a model T. I think it is still on Youtube.

Now for what it is worth.
Twenty years ago, I was 40, in the begining of my model T experience and had already two back surgeries, an old man (84 at that time) saw me struggle to start the 1914 runabout at my workshop. He came to me and showed how it was done. To start he ordered me to jack up one rear wheel than he , 84 years old, toke the hand crank pulled the choke wire and give the engine three pulls with the crank. Before taking the hand crank he set off the ignition and pulled the ignition lever 3/4 down. After the choke pulls, he set on the ignition and moved the ignition lever slowly to the top. While he was moving the lever the engine started up without any pull. I never saw that before and asked how this was possible and how he knew this.
Here his story:
Before WWII he drove, for several years, a model T truck to make deliveries for a brewer company named "Stella Artois" ( now it is called Interbrew). Ever evening, summer and winter, as they came home on the company they jacked up one rear wheel and drained the water out of the engine. In the morning the first job was to heat up the drained water to nearly boiling, put the water back in the engine to "fool" it and did what he showed me before. After three or four Choke pulls the trucks started up if all was tuned right (coils and carburetor setting). He told me also for the winter start he setted the carburetor 1/4 turn more rich.
The old man said that this was a start on switch no a free start, a free start is when you have run the car shut it down and after some time you set on the ignition and the engine start without touching it.

It toke me a while before I found the way he did it but now I use it on my three model T's and used it with succes on a Maxwell. I first prime the engine and than try to start it that way. 2 out of 3 times it works. The other times it just need one or two pulls.

Andre
Belgium
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

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