Dating body - ½ touring

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dykker5502
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First Name: Michael
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Dating body - ½ touring

Post by dykker5502 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:42 am

The "1921 Roadster Pick-up" I have is, as I'm told, build of two cars back in 1963.
The running chassis have given the legal idendity so it is titled as a 1921 Model T, but I recall the original owner/builder that it was a 1919. I think it was because it may be the front half of a 1919 touring that make the body. The bed is made new back in 1963.

In the passenger side I find the bollowing stamped in the steel support for the floor board: BO 05182 and then some logotype.
2021-09-23 17.11.03.jpg
The logotype is clearly seen on this picture:
2021-09-23 17.10.59.jpg
A blow up does not help much I think.....
Logotype.jpg
Logotype.jpg (105.98 KiB) Viewed 2399 times
I believe BO refers to the vendor or plant that made the body. Remember that this car most likely are assembled in Copenhagen as it all originates from danish cars. In 1963 you just did not import an old Model T from abroad (USA) as thing where much more complicated back then and there where still plenty of T's in the junkyeards :-) The body have most likely come over by ship from the US back in the day.
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
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Hap_Tucker
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by Hap_Tucker » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:47 pm

Michael,

Summary: If the right side metal floorboard support (also called floorboard riser) is original to the body, I believe the body was originally a 1920 touring body produced in the USA by Beaudett.

Additional details:

Good looking pickup! And yes, clearly the body was originally a touring car as discussed in your other posting ( https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23849 )

I don’t know when Ford USA began sending parts rather than complete knocked down cars to Denmark. And I have misplaced the files about the Denmark factory that you once posted on the forum. The body most likely would have been shipped “knocked down” to Denmark and assembled there if the Denmark factory had an assembly line and was already assembling cars by 1920 or later.

Your photos show a metal front floorboard support (also called riser sometimes) with a number stamped into it. The front floorboard support/risers are what the top 2 smaller floorboards fit into. They go up from the wood sill towards the firewall and also angle in so they fit inside the bottom of the smaller metal cowl. I haven’t taken one apart, but from photos, it looks to me like it would be more difficult to remove and replace the wooden floorboard supports than the metal floorboard supports. I think you only need to remove about six screws and the metal one will come out. I think the wooden one may have a screw that comes in from the other side and the metal body panel skin needs to be removed to get at that screw. Again, I haven’t taken one apart, so that screw may not go all the way through to the wooden floorboard riser – but it looks like that it might. Bellow the photo by Jim Eubank’s when he was rewooding his 1920ish touring. Note we can see 6 screws holding the metal piece to the wooden framework.
Jim Eubanks 1920is touring.jpg

You mentioned that you saw the number BO 05182 stamped into the metal floorboard riser. I think if you look closer at the photo you will see that it actually is B 005182 20. See below:
Attachments
Beaudett 1920 Michael - Denmark.jpg

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Hap_Tucker
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by Hap_Tucker » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:51 pm

(continued because I keep having troubles remembering how to get the photos where I want them)

Your photo above is typical for a later 1920’ish body produced by Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette and referred to as Pontiac in many of the Ford USA records). It appears that Beaudett had a better stamping machine for the B and next 6 numbers that followed the B. Then it appears they added the year at a later time with a different stamp.
1921 Road B 134754 21 body number Dough Hauge.jpg
Sometimes they are very hard to read as shown by the one above and below that is of Doug Hauge’s 1921 Roadster.

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Hap_Tucker
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by Hap_Tucker » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:56 pm

Notice that I inverted the colors in Doug’s photo (shown below) in order to better make out the last 2 digits as 21.
1921 Roadster B inverted and labeled.jpg
1921 Roadster B inverted and labeled.jpg (18.78 KiB) Viewed 2271 times

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Hap_Tucker
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by Hap_Tucker » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:59 pm

From: https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm Bruce McCalley has:

Bodies made by O.J. Beaudett for Ford
(calendar years)


1909-1912 unknown
1913 - 53,794
1914 - 101,369
1915 - 170,027
1916 - 277,621
1917 - 361,292
1918 - 113,298
1919 - 293,067
1920 - 290,381
1921 - 230,434
1922 - 109,913 (until July 20)

(Ford's literature referred to this company as “Pontiac.” The O.J. Beaudett company was located in Pontiac, Michigan. Beaudett sold out to the Fisher Body Company. in 1922.)

Again have fun with your T’s.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

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dykker5502
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by dykker5502 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:19 am

Hi Hap,

very nice analysis! And now I see the "20" clearly.

Even at the first assembly plant in northern Copenhagen (Heimdahlsgade) they had an assembly line. It was set up in existing buildings.
FMC Heimdalsgade 42.jpg
FMC Heimdalsgade 42.jpg (31.88 KiB) Viewed 2195 times
A days production at Fords first assembly plant in Copenhagen. Cars where supplied to the rest of Scandinavia, Baltics, Poland and also Germany.

In the "dedicated assembly plant" build in the South Habour of Copenhagen there of course was an assembly line as well.
Sydhavnen_1924.JPG
Drawing of the Ford Assembly plant in Copenhagen South Habour
Slutpunkt.jpg
End of assemblyline in Copenhagen (Foto: Elfelt).

One thing then that makes me wonder: In Bruces encyclopedia it states that steel firewall came in late 1923 (1924 model with high radiator). Now this 1920 body have steel firewall. My other Model T - presumably a 1922 touring, that back in the days in the later 1920's was rebuild with a four door body ALSO have a steel firewall but both have low radiator.
I wonder if steel firewalls have been a european requirement and that came from Manchester? We know as a fact that in 1925 the extra low (3") tourings from England was assembled in Copenhagen and sold here, so it was not only parts from the US.
(now I will investigate the metal riser in the Fordor if there are any numbers in that)

Thanks again Hap!
PS: I've asked the Benson Ford Archives what they have on Copenhagen - quite a lot actually, so I am trying to figure out to get over for a couple of weeks stay and look into that).
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
ECCT, Strobospark, HCCT(Sold), Rebuilding coils

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Topic author
dykker5502
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm
First Name: Michael
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Location: Rågeleje, Denmark
MTFCA Number: 29116
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring - steelfirewall

Post by dykker5502 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:31 am

Since last post I have come a little further regarding the firewall mystery:
In the danish 1930 Model T Spare part catalog, you actually find a low steel firewall as a sparepart:
scan0002.jpg
scan0001.jpg
"Forbrædt" is the danish word used for the firewall, "Staal" means steel and you can se on the years that it is 19 - 23 where the high is marked 24-25 and the improved without the holes for the timer box 26-27.

I believe my Fordor got the probably rotten plywood firewall exchanged with a new in steel when it was rebuild from touring to fordor in the late 1920's and my roadster pick-up either had the same happen over the years at some point or it was exchanged during restauration since the steel firewalls was if not plentiful then relatively easy to find in far better condition than an original plywood firewall in good shape.
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:07 am

Michael D,
A lot of reference books are confusing and in error regarding the firewalls between 1921 and 1924. The subject has been studied and debated extensively for most of the past forty years! Back in the 1950s and 1960s, there was a lot of misinformation, a belief that the steel firewalls began around 1920. This was in a large part due to so many cars of those years having had their wooden firewalls replaced by steel ones at some point through their decades. Today, after much digging through the archival records (THANK YOU to all the dedicated model T enthusiasts that spend days weeks and months doing the digging and research!), we have a pretty good idea of how it went.
Early firewalls were of course wood, and much larger than the later cars used.
In 1915, the firewall was reduced considerably in size to fit the new style bodies. However, it continued to be made of wood, and actually a bit thinner wood.
As the years rolled by, weather and water coupled with vibration, heat and oil, along with the many stresses of driving, began to break down the wooden firewalls. Requiring replacements. This also lead to Ford changing the firewall to steel for greater durability.
1923 was a transitional year, with several production anomalies. It was the last year for the low style radiator, hood, and firewall. It was for USA cars the first year for a slanted windshield and the one-man top. Interestingly, Canadian production had those two features fully two years earlier! What English and Danish production did on those two things I do not know!
Although there had been good reason to believe that steel firewalls could have begun earlier? Recent research has pretty well confirmed that the steel firewalls began in that 1923 transitional year, on the still low style radiator, hood, and firewall cars. Records and surviving original cars indicate that SOME of the early 1923 "model" cars built in the late months of calendar 1922 still had wooden firewalls. Personally, I would speculate that only 1923 "models" built around October or earlier of calendar 1922 would have maybe had the leftover wooden firewalls. The steel firewalls also required an alteration in the firewall to frame brackets. Production issues caused some early 1923 "models" to use spacers between the old style firewall to frame brackets and the firewall until production of the new design brackets caught up. A fair number of unrestored original 1923 models still have those spacers in place. Photos have been shared on this forum in the past (I lost my bookmark so I cannot at this time show a link).
The vast majority of 1923 "model" model Ts have the steel firewalls, and had them since new.
Ford did sell the steel firewalls as replacements for failing wooden ones, and did so for many years. There appear to be a lot of New Old Stock steel firewalls around. I have one myself, and have seen at least a dozen more in the past thirty years. In my corner of the world, NOS parts are not common. Few people have a lot of anything NOS. That so many of the never been used firewalls are around says something about them. Ford pushed them as replacements, and any pre1923 model T with a steel firewall almost certainly had had it replaced at some point.

Also during 1923, the center-door sedan was discontinued, and the coupe was updated considerably. The center-door sedan was being replaced first by a four-door sedan during most of the 1923 model year (I believe it came out in late 1922?), and later in the 1923 year by a more modern two-door sedan. The more modern two-door sedan and updated coupe began production before the 1923 "model" year was over, but were considered by many people (then and now) to be 1924 "models". Those early production coupes and two-door sedans are often dated as 1923 models. And people tend to get fiercely passionate about how right or wrong that is! (Generally, I prefer to avoid those discussions!)
True 1923 early style coupes should have the low steel firewall, as may some of the last 1923 center-door sedans. However, the updated later style coupes and sedans had the new style higher and wider steel firewalls beginning around June of 1924 (according to researchers far better than I)
By September of 1923, except for a few stragglers at branch assembly plants, ALL styles of model Ts were using the later higher and wider firewall, along with the radiator and hood that fit them.

At this time, I would also like to remember and thank Bruce McCally, for his dedication to this hobby. He, through his research, and publishing some of the first really researched books as well as the "Vintage Ford" magazine for a few decades, inspired so many other people that had or got access to real records and spent the time searching for endless details. Without their dedication, we today would still not know so much about our beloved history, and the model T which was so much a part of our history.

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dykker5502
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by dykker5502 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:42 am

Thank you, Wayne!

I have a faint dream of getting the opportunity for a couple of weeks stay at the Benson Ford archives studying what they have about Copenhagen up until WWII (I also have a 1937 Ford Junior de Luxe Cabrio-Limousine - actually an 1937 Ford Eifel but sold as Ford Junior de Luxe in Scandinavia. That car is also assembled in Copenhagen).
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
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Been Here Before
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by Been Here Before » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:14 pm

FYI: I posted the following April 2013 on the Forum:

------"Auto Industries" of 12 October 1922 (p 748) carried the following story, ' Rouge Plant Builds Most of Ford Bodies (Detroit 9 October).' The article states Ford is now building all bodies for its models (cars?) at the River Rouge Plant. The reason was the termination/sale of the Beaudette Company, Pontiac, Michigan to Fisher Bodies. The Beaudette Company, according to the 1922 article, built roadster bodies for Ford.

The Rouge plant now (1922) build 800 bodies daily in house. The Phaeton and all two-door sedans are built at Rouge River. The phaeton bodies are built in numbers of 3015 daily, with an average of 2650 daily. Sedans (bodies) are manufactured at 900 daily.

Bodies for Coupes and the new four door sedan bodies are manufactured by the Briggs Company and not by Ford. These two styles are low production (1922) cars averaging 5000 daily. The Ford Company is manufacturing 400 to 500 light trucks daily. --------

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dykker5502
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm
First Name: Michael
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Location: Rågeleje, Denmark
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Re: Dating body - ½ touring

Post by dykker5502 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:16 am

Been Here Before wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:14 pm
FYI: I posted the following April 2013 on the Forum:
Thumbs_up.png
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
ECCT, Strobospark, HCCT(Sold), Rebuilding coils

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