New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

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Topic author
smguest
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Guest
Location: Fort Worth, TX

New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by smguest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:41 pm

I apologize for the long post but this forum has been a great help for me and I really wanted to give back in a way that might help others try to keep these great machines going.

Quick history, several months ago, a neighbor had a Model T pulled out of storage and paid to have a mechanic work it back into drivable shape. The mechanic was not local but did all the work and delivered the car in great working order. Unfortunately, it didn’t last long. It started misfiring, running poorly and eventually became impossible to start (hand crank only, no electric starter). So a handful of enthusiastic shade tree mechanics took a look but nothing seemed to work.

My Dad is a good friend of the owner/neighbor and suggested I might want to look at it, not that I have any knowledge of Model Ts but I am a car guy he knew I’d be interested even if I couldn’t help out.

So with my Dad helping me every step of the way, I looked it over, had to research some of the basics (mainly via this forum and most were old posts) like “are those wooden boxes under the dash supposed to be buzzing and sparking like that!?”. I was able to get my head around what made this like any other car and what things were absolutely unlike anything I ever thought I’d find on an automobile.

As anyone would, I started with the fuel and spark. Looking at online recommendations, we set the timing, checked for spark at the top of the spark plugs (note that this isn’t at the spark plug gap itself) by shorting the top of the plug to the head, and it all worked. We then tried spraying starter fluid into the carb inlet. Still no hit when cranking. We went as far as to put just a little fuel into each cylinder directly and replace the plugs – still no hit when cranking. Well, back to spark since I “know” I have fuel.

We pulled the number one plug and we would NOT get a spark at the plug gap, but would get one at the top/wire. Ok, we must be on to something. Checked all the other plugs and they fired normally. So we swapped the coils and the number one plug STILL didn’t fire. Ah, wire must be bad. It was actually a bit scorched and crusty where it appears to have set on the exhaust. So we replaced the wires. Didn’t change anything.

Not knowing where to go and still perplexed that it wasn’t hitting at all, at least on one of the other cylinders, I decided to look around some more and realized that we hadn’t checked the carb mixture setting. I assumed (yeah, I know) it was where it needed to be and figured it wouldn’t be a player since it didn’t hit on starter fluid BUT we discovered that when someone was experimenting (before me) with the car, the mixture was left open only a quarter of a turn. We opened it up a couple of turns just to see if it would hit, and it did, but not consistently and not enough to run. Progress.

So now we can get a random hit when cranking by hand but that is not often. We’d basically exhausted our hand cranker (me) and decided that we would try to tow start it and see if that would work. To keep the story short, we’d pull it with another vehicle and were able to get it running and dialed in the mixture (about one turn out) and got it to run ok, BUT with random misfiring that we couldn’t completely dial out.
Now we have it dialed in where we can tow start it and drive it. We can also hand crank it when hot but cannot start it cold. And the misfiring hasn’t gone away and we had one big enough to blow the back cap of the muffler loose (easy repair, just lined up the cap and tightened it back down). My selective amnesia had discarded the number one spark issue once we got the car running. Now that we have it running, but with misfires, we knew we still had the spark problem.

Back to diagnosing the number one spark plug issue. This time when we swapped coils to re-confirm it wasn’t the coil, we decided to clean all the contacts in the coil box. It was then that we noticed at the spark terminal of the number one coil (on the wooden coil box back plate and not the coil itself – and btw, how much wood can you use in an ignition system?), the wood was black/scorched and that continued towards the side of the box. We then understood that it was shorting out inside the coil box when trying to jump the spark plug gap (and also figured out that was where the pleasant wood smoke smell was coming from!). We tried to see if we could prevent the short with electrical tape but it was no match for the thousands of volts jumping around there. Further examination of the wooden coil box made it clear that it had been wet and was delaminating and in very poor condition. We knew this had to be the culprit.

We replaced the wooden coil box with another wooden one (we considered some type of plastic replacement but those were out of stock and we didn’t want to wait). Good news - we NOW have spark at the number one plug!

Still couldn't get it to crank cold though. We continue to tow start it with another vehicle and can set the mixture and timing to get it to run what I suspect is plenty smooth for a Model T. And once warm, we are now starting with a single pull. So huge progress but huge disappointment (and exhaustion) about not starting cold.

All the experienced folks out there know how critical the mixture is for starting and I HAD read that you want to richen the mixture. In hindsight I realize that I had missed HOW MUCH to richen the mixture. We probably were only rotating the mixture about a sixteenth of a turn. In these forums, I found that 90 degrees (1/4 turn) was a common amount. One other thing we started doing at the same time was turning off the fuel valve (at the carb) when the vehicle was parked and no longer expected to be driven on the same day. FYI – I had previously checked to make sure that the float appeared set correctly and confirmed that when up, the fuel flow would stop.

I’m not sure which contributes the most (I suspect the rich mixture setting) but after opening the fuel cutoff valve, rotating the mixture control by 90 degrees, two pulls on the crank with the choke engaged, it now starts in two pulls cold. That was one of the most satisfying moments ever. And from there we just lean it out as the engine warms.

One other update - this, as many Model Ts I’ve learned, is not just made up of parts from one year so it is a 1915 model with a 1925 engine I believe and a 1913 radiator, or something like that so I know you can’t just look up the model year for parts. I bring this up as it did NOT have a fan, but did have a water pump that had been added. When it still had the bad coil box, after a test drive in the neighborhood on a warm day, we parked it we did see the mercury start to rise in the “motometer”. We decided to add a new std fan that bolted to the updated fan pulley (one with sealed bearings) but it took some customization as the fan was too big and didn’t fit. The fan blades had to be cut down, spacers had to be added, and a shorter belt was required in order to keep the fan blades out of the upper radiator hose. Seems to work great. Even cut down it seems to move plenty of air through the radiator. We’ve not seen the mercury again on warmer days and much longer drives. This provides confidence about driving this car in the summer in a parade as the owner would like to do.

While this may be much longer than a normal post, the purpose is to maybe help any others that are new to the Model T that experience some of the same issues I did. This forum was the starting place for my Model T education and was crucial for me starting at zero and getting me quite comfortable around the mechanics of a Model T.

And my reward has been great - I’m now pretty much the only person that the owner lets drive his car on the street (he’s not decided if he’s comfortable with it due to his age, I’m 57 and he’s my Dad’s age). Our next plan is trailer it to a small town square just down the road and drive it around to show it off including a stop at a restaurant for lunch. This has been a great experience for me and my Dad to work together and we are thankful to the owner for sharing his car with us.

I don’t want to overstate or get too philosophical about it, but what a surprise to see a piece of machinery (albeit, a very old piece of machinery) pull together a community. Many neighbors have been excited to visit the owner and see and touch the car. We’ve stopped by interested neighbors that have run out of their houses to take pictures so we of course take them for a ride. And all the big friendly smiles and waves from motorists because they have to, as they can see all the smiles beaming out from inside the Model T.

As I tell everyone now, me and Model Ts, we go back months, and what a blast!


MichaelPawelek
Posts: 702
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:01 pm
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Pawelek
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 Touring, 1925 Coupe
Location: Brookshire, Texas
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by MichaelPawelek » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:35 pm

Looks like you have caught the Model T fever and have already learned a tremendous amount.

Unless I missed it in your post, and in all of your working on the T, have you looked inside the “timer” to make sure everything is in top shape? In your reading you have probably noticed there were/are many styles of timers made for the Model T and many can cause huge problems. Do you know what style/brand of timer is on the T?

PS- Many coils that have never been refurbished or properly set still have old worn out condensers inside and worn out misaligned points. A rebuilt set may be in order.

The first thing I always recommend to someone working on a Model T that has sat for a while is to take apart EVERY electrical connection from the battery all the way to the timer, shine them up, and snug back together. This includes the battery ground to frame.


Topic author
smguest
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Guest
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by smguest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:12 pm

Thanks for responding and you are right, we've definitely caught the fever!

We did replace the existing New Day timer with the same (both without the "S"). While it has been running well now for several days, my biggest concern with the timer is actually the amount of oil that I noticed that leaks from the bearing/seal behind it. I read that some folks were replacing the seal with something better. I don't know if that is worth it for the moment, but it would certainly be nice to see less oil there. Seems like I read the roller timer actually likes the oil, I'm not sure the brush based timer needs any. It all does seem to be running well now so may be ok.

If you remember, the owner had the car serviced by a knowledgeble mechanic and I was told that the coils had been rebuilt. So I think he delivered a good working car and then the deteriorated coil box finally absorbed enough moisture to allow the internal short. And then you get all of us shade tree mechanics poking around and probably undid some of his work that exacerbated the situation, like the fuel mixture being way out of sorts.

I do have a question, how do you keep the coils from slowly riding up? The owner has always kept the coil box cover off because the coils would start to rise, especially the middle two and part of his driving style included randomly pushing down on the coils. Doesn't look like the box top has any mechanism to hold them in place. We've tried to wedge them with thin pieces of wood in the front of the box and that helps, but they still creep up.


MichaelPawelek
Posts: 702
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:01 pm
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Pawelek
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 Touring, 1925 Coupe
Location: Brookshire, Texas
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by MichaelPawelek » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:32 pm

I cannot speak for other years but the coil box lid on my late 19 Touring has a shelf as part of the lid that holds the coils down. I generally have the opposite problem in that here on the Texas gulf coast we always have high humidity which makes the coil box wood swell and many times I’ve had to sand them a little bit to get them to fit in. At times they have been so tight I did not think I would be able to pull them out.

Image


Topic author
smguest
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Guest
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by smguest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:49 pm

Thanks for the picture - "our" cover does not have that shelf! Don't know if it could have broken off or just didn't exist for this year. I'll have to stop by the owner's and look at it more closely but I was actually thinking about trying to fabricate something (maybe 3d print?) that I could attach to the lid to hold the coils down for us.

We are in the DFW area in north Texas so don't quite have the same humidity issues.

Thanks again!

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George House
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
First Name: George
Last Name: House
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘10 Maxwell AA, ‘11Hupp Model 20, Two 1914 Ford runabouts, 19 centerdoor, 25 C Cab,26 roadster
Location: Northern Caldwell County TX
MTFCA Number: 115
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by George House » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:58 pm

What a fun read Stephen!! Thanks for sharing your diagnostic travels and successes. Your experiences are the exact ways many of us got started. Now bring that T down to Temple TX next weekend and be with about 90 other Model T’s on the Texas T Party. 😁
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪

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TRDxB2
Posts: 5407
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Last Name: Brandi
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
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Board Member Since: 2018

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:38 pm

smguest wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:49 pm
Thanks for the picture - "our" cover does not have that shelf! Don't know if it could have broken off or just didn't exist for this year. I'll have to stop by the owner's and look at it more closely but I was actually thinking about trying to fabricate something (maybe 3d print?) that I could attach to the lid to hold the coils down for us.

We are in the DFW area in north Texas so don't quite have the same humidity issues.

Thanks again!
You don't need much more than a plastic bar or wood on top of the coils (I'll add some dimensions later) if you can clip the lid down.

Yup, riding around in a T always brings smiles and if your lucky you get the right of way while they gawk at it. :lol:
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger


Topic author
smguest
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Guest
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by smguest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:16 pm

George House wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:58 pm
What a fun read Stephen!! Thanks for sharing your diagnostic travels and successes. Your experiences are the exact ways many of us got started. Now bring that T down to Temple TX next weekend and be with about 90 other Model T’s on the Texas T Party. 😁
Thanks for the kind words and it is great to actually engage here instead of just searching for help topics as I have.

Hmmm - that Temple offer sounds like fun but guess we aren't quite there yet. I'll start keeping my eye open and maybe we'll have to set a target on some event like that. We think we've lined up some help (ANOTHER neighbor may join us) to work repairs on the top. I'm more mechanical than upholstry but then again, two months ago I would have said I don't know anything about Model Ts. So I might learn something else I didn't know.


Topic author
smguest
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Guest
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by smguest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:31 pm

TRDxB2 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:38 pm

You don't need much more than a plastic bar or wood on top of the coils (I'll add some dimensions later) if you can clip the lid down.

Yup, riding around in a T always brings smiles and if your lucky you get the right of way while they gawk at it. :lol:
Thanks, that would be great as the top fits and latches so knowing what size you think would work for the "bar" would be a great start.


Topic author
smguest
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:41 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Guest
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: New to Model Ts - Problems solved (no start, misfire)

Post by smguest » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:56 pm

Thought I'd add a couple of images of the bad coil box that was replaced. Pretty obvious that it needed replacing once we figured it out.

Image Image

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