Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

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Rich Eagle
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Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:54 pm

In our area, if we want to tour the VMCCA is the only active club within 300 miles. Traveling in a 35mph Model T with cars 25 years and older is a real challenge. By planning the tour my wife can keep the miles down but having to be the first car to each portion of the tour to meet with coffee stop, lunch people and motel owners means starting early and missing most of the stops along the way. She does a phenomenal job and puts on a great tour if I stay out of it with any logic or common sense.
21Lava.jpg
24 cars and 43 people participated from Idaho and Utah chapters. There were not many tours last year with the Covid-19 problems. This year the restrictions kept changing. That involved changing meals and locations several times during the planning.
21Lava1.jpg
The folks on this tour were so pleased to be on a tour and their spirits were high. The weather was both warm enough for us but still cool enough for the cars. Some of the most beautiful country to drive in with the trees just beginning to turn colors made it fantastic. It was a real shot in the arm for me and others mentioned for them too.
21Lava2.jpg
One of our dinners involved wagon rides up into the hills for a barbeque feast. I always eat too much on these things. It's good the return trip was down hill.
21Lava3.jpg
I know many of you have been able to go on some long delayed events. It truly is great to get out again.
This could have been an OT post if not for the Model T breaking the trail and hauling eats and treats.
More on this later.
Rich
When did I do that?


JohnM
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by JohnM » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:32 pm

Most of my old car friends have mid fifties on up, but they love it when I show up in my T. :) Looks like a great tour in beautiful country!

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TWrenn
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by TWrenn » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:36 pm

My grandfather had one of those DeSoto's. It was ugly yellow, but man what a land yacht! Rode like a cloud. Had that neat push button automatic transmission. Built like a tank!

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Rich Eagle
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:33 am

The variety of cars does make for a good show where ever we stop. It is something for everybody. Many of the group are new members who haven't toured much with Ts and have lots of questions. Mine was well received. Others have Ts they don't drive much and could see the fun they might have had by bringing theirs. Lots of younger folks were getting an eye full.
When did I do that?

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Rich Eagle
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:20 pm

The second oldest car on this tour was a 1927 Studebaker President. What a wonderful opportunity to see it. This Big Six was powered by a 354 cubic-inch engine that produced 75 horsepower. The Penberthy carburetor has a second venturi that kicks in at around 50 mph and takes the car easily to 65 mph, if I remember how he was explaining it. It is a rare car and he was very proud to have restored it and own it.
27Stude1.jpg
With it was his 1927 Thompson machine gun which he loaded a 100 live round canister into for some pictures. I wasn't the only one who was a little alarmed at this.
27Stude2.jpg
His pride and exuberance prompted his to say something like his car was "5 times the car Ford was building that year". The fact that he trailered it to the tour and couldn't pull two of the hills the old Ford did gave me some satisfaction.
It was a treat to see and learn about and much more interesting to me than some of the newer cars.
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Rich Eagle
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:03 pm

The Studebaker also had a set of the Semaphore turn signals mentioned in this post.
https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php? ... ne#p119845
Two friends bought a pair for their 1929 REO and an Erskine shown in that post. They bought them in original paper wrappings from a large cash at the Harrah's swap meet in the 1960s. Some from that same batch showed up on eBay later on. That is where the ones for the Studebaker and the ones in the attached post came from. It is the 4th set I have seen. The boxes extend by vacuum and light up when activated.
A pretty cool accessory.
Rich
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:55 am

An unplanned conclusion to a wonderful tour ended up with the Tudor on a tow truck for the last 60 miles.
21Lava4.jpg
Our last coffee stop was at the Pebble Creek Ski Area. A 12% climb and sharp turns had us in low gear all the way up. It was a beautiful view of the valley below. I descended the hill as I normally do, taking it slow and alternating the brake and clutch to allow oil to cool the bands. However, about 3/4 down the hill we picked up speed. I realized both pedals were bottomed out on the floorboards. I pumped the park brake with poor results. Going faster and faster and trying to cut the turns by going as straight as possible it felt like we could roll the car at any time. Luckily I thought of using reverse and it slowed us quite a bit until it gave out. We picked up speed again and hoped for the best. The bottom of the hill leveled out but we were going to fast to stop at the stop sign. We managed to keep it on four wheels for the 90 degree turn and there were no cars coming as we rolled to a stop.
At this point we had no bands or breaks and couldn't pull out in high. Opting for a tow truck seemed prudent at this time. We had done that a few years ago when our '15 Runabout lost a rod bearing.
The Kevlar bands are 20 years old and I haven't gotten them out to see if they burned or just wore down. I'll report later on that.
Even with the best care and thought touring can have it's frightening moments. This could have been a disaster but we were fortunate.
Rich
When did I do that?

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:25 pm

Transmission Update.
I was pleased to see that the Kevlar did not show signs of burning. Only wear. If I had been 20 years younger I might have looked in and just adjusted them rather than calling the tow truck.
21Trans1.jpg
However I now see a cracked clutch drum.
21Trans2.jpg
I'm not looking forward to pulling the engine. The Summer has been tough on me and getting under and around the car is much more difficult than the two engines I tackled a year and a half ago. Perhaps shuffling around the shop on a new project will prove a good thing for my feeble mind and body.
Do what you can while you are young and healthy.
Rich
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:17 pm

Which band had the raveling ?

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by George House » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:31 pm

Thank you for the tour report Richard. And I’m really glad you, your family and the model T weren’t injured/damaged. I pulled a Model T engine yesterday to be rebuilt at Lilleker’s. But I consider myself exceedingly fortunate that my boy works there and it was indeed a joy to accomplish this pain-in-the- butt task with someone very knowledgeable.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:01 pm

I'm not sure which band was where at this point Steve.
I started removing parts this afternoon in preparation of pulling the engine. It is fun to revisit items I restored 20 years ago. They bring back fond memories of working on them. We tend to forget them as time goes on.
The old Tudor took us at least 11,000 miles and it probably is good to look at and adjust many things I can get to now. Having this project may be good for me rather than being lazy this Fall.
Thanks for your comments and Happy Touring
Rich
When did I do that?

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:24 pm

UPDATE. REPEATED FROM "MORE ENGINE FINDS" post
Disassembly of the transmission revealed two cracks in the low speed drum. I suspect it cracked from the incident but it could have happened anytime in the last 20 years. The 3 drums and bands were blued from heat much worse than parts away from the friction heat. The engine oil was black as ink and 1 1/2 quarts had disappeared. It also contained a grit like sand. This was burnt or worn from the Kevlar. While the pan is off the engine I have thoroughly cleaned both the pan and engine. The reverse drum bushing was frozen to the slow speed drum shaft. I had to heat it to remove it and when it cooled it was too small to fit back in it's hole tightly FWIW. All the other parts looked good enough to reassemble with a good low drum and new bands. I couldn't see excessive wear from the incident except for the bands.
I attribute the problem from the length and steepness of the hill and the heavier Tudor. Had there been flatter road stretches in between this might have been avoided. I haven't had band failures on the many longer passes with lighter (open) cars before (55 years). I have noticed band wear both Kevlar and cotton fabric after hills.
Live and learn.
Rich
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:57 pm

Rich

a number of years ago, the national tour was in Glacier, with the hotel at the top of a long steep run. Several friends killed their cars on this tour several years prior on a previous tour on the road to the hotel. Knowing this, prior to dedicating time and $$ to make the cross-country trip to the tour, I inquired multiple times: "will a stock T be able to handle this tour?". I was assured multiple times that it would. Based on those responses, I figured a different hotel was involved this time. Uh-oh. Nope.

As it turned out, my diesel pickup had difficulty pulling a 2 car trailer up to the hotel...an ominous sign. The next AM, it was a "locked in low and pump the brakes" for about 6-7 (?) miles...I was not happy to know that this had to be done again just to get "home" to the hotel.

The next day we checked out of the hotel, lost our entire payment and abandoned the tour lest we become another statistic (another friend killed his T the next day, getting up to the hotel). I was assured by one of the hosts that "my T just must not have been in very good shape and I was the only one who had complained". Before leaving, I did an inventory and found most T's there had either 4 or 12 forward speeds...not two. I also discovered that overnight the hosts arranged for parking of T's in town at the school. Parking was swamped with local T owners who got clued in early. Huh. Perhaps I was NOT the only one who complained. No word ever got to me, nor was there a public announcement (before I left, at least) that parking in town had been arranged. That explained why on day 2 when I left, my rig was alone in a previously full parking area.

Very sorry you had this failure...sounds like you tried to come down in high and pumped low and brake? I descended from the hotel in low only and it was almost an hour just to get from the hotel to town to start the tour. Not fun at all. Did it once; didn't do it twice. Since that tour, I've been a GDI and after 7 national tours and dozens of regional tours, no longer have interest in organized tours.
Scott Conger

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:11 pm

I well remember my mother telling of living in New Mexico mountains as a child and her father cutting a tree at the top a steep grade chaining to the car, using it to slow descent. The ranch house was in the valley and the trees were later used for firewood. A different time in the world.

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:28 pm

We took our '19 Centerdoor on that first Glacier Tour - once was enough for me but we did make it back up to the top everyday ! I have a Ruckstell with stock gears & R.M brakes and we all know how heavy a Centerdoor is ! Still running on the same Scandinavia bands. That was a very challenging tour !


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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:51 pm

There's a short, steep grade near here that used to be marked "Caution: 12% Grade, Use Lower Gear". It's only a couple of hundred feet from the top to the stop sign (of course) at the bottom and it's not all 12%. I avoid it since it requires heavy braking, even in a 27 roadster, even if you slow to a crawl at the top. Going up it requires getting all the speed you can before starting up it to stay out of low. I can usually get over the top at about 20 MPH.

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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:29 pm

Hi Scott. I attended the 2010 Glacier tour in my Touring. We stayed at the Ski Resort at the top of the mountain. I assume it is the tour you mentioned. We questioned the wisdom of driving up that grade each day after touring all day but our two speed made each climb without problems and I don't remember having to adjust bands. Likewise, we descended the hill each day without incident. I'm glad you brought it up as it reflects the more hazardous elements of the hill on our Lava tour. I will mention that we were in low gear all the way up that hill and even at that we had to slip the clutch some and weave side to side in some parts to level things out.
Descending we were able to keep the speed down to 5 or 10 miles an hour before we ran out of adjustment on that steeper hill. I could pump alternately on low and brake pedals to allow oil to cool them. I can imagine the drums becoming red hot and the oil losing it's cooling value. If the low band would lock the drum it might be enough but I feel the is is slipping enough to burn without letting up occasionally. I could be wrong. High gear nor the '26-'27 I used didn't seem to have much effect. The latter may have saved the day if better adjusted.
As far as National tours, I find that I still go slower than most Ts. I'm used to it traveling with newer cars on their tours.
My wife and I find it more pleasant to travel on our own. We go on less traveled roads at our own pace and meet lots of wonderful folks everywhere. If we had T tour that were closer that would be fun too.
Planning a tour and driving the slowest car is much more challenging for me than fixing problems on the road.
Thanks for the comments.
Regardless, Ts are the BEST!
Rich
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by KeithG » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:58 pm

Those two Glacier tours with the host hotel at the top of the ski hill were a big mistake!!! That hill was 4 miles long and with as much as a 9% grade if I remember correctly. I complained about that hill big time when we arrived for the 2010 tour.

There was one fellow named Steve B. Who drove his Ford F250 pulling a toy hauler 5th wheel up that hill and blew the transmission on the way up. He never even got to the hotel once! He got towed to the Ford garage in town and while we were on the tour they ordered a new trans. from Ford and it was all repaired by the Monday after the tour. I think it cost him about $5,000.00. All week long as we rode up the hill in modern cars, we saw that big oil stain from the blown transmission on the steepest part of the uphill grade.

So you think they learned a lesson from the 2010 tour about having the host hotel at the top of the ski hill? No, they did it again at the same place in 2017.

We stayed at campgrounds in town (think bottom of the hill) and it was ok. We only drove our '27 Roadster Pickup up the hill once, and it was ok as the T had a Ruckstel at that time.

Just so you know, the 2022 tour in Wisconsin will NOT have hills like in Glacier. There are some gently rolling hills but they should be no problem. I don't plan to eat my words by saying that either. :)

Keith
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Re: Model T at Lava Hot Springs Tour 2021

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:22 pm

Rich/Keith

it was the 2017 tour. I assumed from the bitter comments in 2010 made by friends that attended, that the hotel would not be the same one...thus my REPEATED questions to organizers about the grade and the assurances that it would not be a problem. It was a bitter and expensive disappointment to abandon the tour after 1 day having traveled 2800 miles to get there. I have never done that before...ever. I've experienced plenty of tough tours, hills, switchbacks, in the past, but nothing like what we experienced there...not even So. Dakota National Tour in which the volunteer "A" club racked up over 1000 miles of trouble-truck miles. I chose to abandon my $$ in Glacier rather than sacrifice my transmission as several did in 2010 and several subsequently did in 2017. I might have been fine...but not everyone ultimately was.

I feel that there are much more fun ways to prove your manhood than that.

anyway, Rich, very glad you're OK.
Scott Conger

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