Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

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TopBanana
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Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by TopBanana » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:07 pm

Hi Everyone! I haven't been on the forum in along time but my T has been pretty trouble free until now!

I have a 21 T, Depot Hack. I took it to a car show last weekend, and when I went to leave and hit the starter, the bendix jammed in the flywheel. Rocked it back and forth got it to pop out and was able to roll it down a slight hill and pop start it to get it running. Got it home and stupidly hit the starter again jamming the bendix again...badly. Finally got the bendix out after taking it apart and I'm seeing badly chewed up flywheel teeth.

I have a decent mechanical background but I'm still learning how to work on T's. It appears to be a major undertaking to replace the ring gear. A mechanic friend said he's put a lot of starters in where flywheel was a little chewed, and all was good. Not sure if I can get away with starter and or bendix rebuild, or need to go all in on flywheel ring gear. I'm also afraid of what else might come up and where the budget might go if I have to pull the motor and everything else apart.

Looking for some advice please.

Thanks in advance!!

Bill Maurits
1921 T, Depot Hack, Family Owned Since New
Last edited by TopBanana on Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.


Norman Kling
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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:35 pm

How does the bendix gear look? If it looks worn, you might get lucky and replace it and it will work longer without replacing the flywheel gear. Another thing, The flywheel gear usually wears at two locations because of where the engine naturally stops when the engine is off. So If you first turn the crank about 1/4 turn before hitting the starter, you might make it last a bit longer. If you do need to replace the ring on the flywheel you will need to pull the engine and transmission and remove the hogs head and crankcase. Then remove the 4 bolts from the rear of the flywheel and remove the flywheel from the engine. Then you will need to remove the brass screws from the magnet keepers. The ring gear should then be loose enough to remove from the back side of the flywheel and the new one installed. Be sure you face the bevel toward the back of the car. You will need new brass screws because they are peened. Be sure to get the screws to match the threads in the ring gear, because some of the reproduction gears have different threads from the originals. Then you will need to set the distance from the magneto coils and the magnets being sure that the magnets are same space from the flywheel all the way around. Anyway, I would suggest you get the club booklet. on Engine, Transmission, and Electrical System, because this would be a good time to inspect everything and also replace the magneto coil ring. Also check the magnets for cracks. (very important, because if one breaks, it can damage many other parts) and recharge them. Remember that every other magnet polarity is reversed, so you have two north poles together and two south poles together.
So the pulling of everything apart is the biggest part of the job and you might as well fix everything you can find while it is out and then you won't have to do it again soon.
Norm


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:39 pm

And then again, you may well go months or years without it happening again...
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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:05 pm

The Model T pixie shows his ugly head now and then as Scott states.


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:42 am

What scares me is the filings from the gears floating around in the engine oil and doing damage to other parts. That being said it’s a long way in to the ring gear. IMO the flywheel will need to be balanced once reassembled.
8E236BB7-BBA6-48BF-B7F0-5F5D0938E035.png
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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Humblej » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:30 am

Bill,
Replacing a chewed up ring gear will be a massive undertaking, might be best to wait a few years until the engine needs to come out for a freshening up or rebuild. In the meantime use the hand crank up front under the radiator, that's literally what it is for. Many of us hand crank our T's, read up on how to do it safely. Check your timing setting for spark just past TDC with spark lever fully retarded, don't assume it is adjusted correctly by a prior owner or use a timing gage sold by the vendors unless you know for certain that you have an original Ford commutator and a Ford roller. always fully retard the spark lever before starting, and only use a 1/4 turn pull up with the hand crank. Yes you can start on mag or bat but mag requires a couple notches of advance on the spark lever. An out of setting timer could be the same as starting with the spark lever advanced which could cause the engine to momentarily run backwards which is a major cause of a broken arm while cranking, or a broken bendix when using the electric starter. There are many old wives tails regarding broken arms while hand cranking, left or right handed, position of thumb, etc., but an engine kicking backwards is what I believe is the biggest cause of injury. It will pull the crank right out of your hand, spin counterclockwise, and wack you in the wrist/arm. Others will disagree. If in doubt read the owners manual. So lets move on to why timing could cause the engine to kick backwards. Despite intuition, the compressed fuel/air mixture does not explode very fast. It explodes and expands so slowly that in a running engine, the spark needs to start well before the piston ever gets to TDC so that once the explosion and expansion really kicks in, the piston is in a position to best take advantage of it, that being at the start of the downward stroke. So we advance the spark a lot when the engine is at high RPM, less at lower RPM like being on a steep hill in second gear, or idling at a stop light, and fully retarded for starting. So starting an engine with the spark advanced will cause the spark to ignite the fuel/air mixture before the piston gets to TDC and at a low RPM like hand crank starting, could cause the engine to try to run backwards. keep your commutator clean and oiled, carb setting adjusted correctly, engine tuned up with properly adjusted coils, and you will find hand cranking to be enjoyable and reliable.

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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by DanTreace » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:55 am

TopBanana wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:07 pm
. Finally got the bendix out after taking it apart and I'm seeing badly chewed up flywheel teeth. The bendix gear moves easily but has a little play on the shaft. The spacer behind it definitely slops around a bit. The spring is not broken but looks distorted.


Bill Maurits
1921 T, Depot Hack, Family Owned Since New
Your description of the Bendix and Bendix spring indicates a worn assembly causing your issues. That ‘spacer’ is the weighted flywheel or counter balance that allows the Bendix gear to retract. It must be solidly attached to work. Plus a tiny spring follower is there to ride on the top of the square tooth too to assist. A bent spring is sign of damage or just worn out Bendix.

Replace those with new, and you should be ok, even with some flywheel tooth wear. Stay with 6v too ;)
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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:12 am

One thing I forgot to mention. If you are using a 12 volt battery with a 6 volt starter, your bendix will slam down hard on the ring gear. If so, you need to change to a 6 volt battery or change your starter to one wired for 12 volts.
Norm


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Dan Hatch » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:39 am

You also see how bad bent your starter shaft is. Dan


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by speedytinc » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:12 pm

Let us not forget, the bendix nose runs in a babbit bushing in the starter snout. Ring gear wear & the possibility for the bendix to be pushed away from disengagement.
Last T I worked on had the worst ring gear I'd seen. Teeth were rolled over. Starter bendix bushing gone, snout bent outward. When starting would make an ungoddly gear noise & jam up after a few revolutions. Had to loosen it by forcing the crank handle.
Hand crank as much as possible to put off the job.
There is no easy solution.

P.S. A fellow club member bough a T, not running. First start, there were bendix engagement issues. The previous owner put the ring gear on backwards. His fix was to hand grind the ring gear in place. Easier than pulling the motor. Starts fine now.

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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Oldav8tor » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm

This is a contrarian point of view but have you considered installing a modern starter? The 12 volt geared starter from WOSP was designed by a Model T guru in England and engages from the front of the flywheel, not the rear like an original unit. It also engages in a two-step manner, bendix gear engages first then the starter turns. It might be cheaper than pulling the engine unless there are other good reasons to do so. Just a thought.
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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by speedytinc » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:31 pm

Oldav8tor wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm
This is a contrarian point of view but have you considered installing a modern starter? The 12 volt geared starter from WOSP was designed by a Model T guru in England and engages from the front of the flywheel, not the rear like an original unit. It also engages in a two-step manner, bendix gear engages first then the starter turns. It might be cheaper than pulling the engine unless there are other good reasons to do so. Just a thought.
Worth a look are the teeth to see if there are enough teeth for this option. Typically all of the teeth are down full width.


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by speedytinc » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:34 pm

BobShirleyAtlantaTx wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:42 am
What scares me is the filings from the gears floating around in the engine oil and doing damage to other parts. That being said it’s a long way in to the ring gear. IMO the flywheel will need to be balanced once reassembled. 8E236BB7-BBA6-48BF-B7F0-5F5D0938E035.png
Weight wise, changing the ring gear wont effect balance much, if at all, but when apart, yes check balance.


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by TopBanana » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:24 pm

Thanks for all the great responses!!! I really appreciate the info! I'll do my best to answer questions and address points.

I'm still running 6 volts.

The nose and body of the bendix gear does not look damaged, just kind of "naturally worn", but not bad for 100 years old!. The starter motor end of the bendix worm gear shaft does have some nicks in it that look suspect. The tip on the long spring attachment bolt was bent when I took it out too.

Something else I noticed was that the bendix jams EVERY time I engage the starter, no matter the engine position. To me, this would suggest that it's mainly a starter or bendix issue, as not all the ring gear are damaged, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have hand started it a few times in the past but recently discovered that the Drivers side parking brake lever shaft pivot has failed, pulling the hand lever tooth away from the quadrant, so need to replace that before I can hand crank.

I like the WSOP starter idea...except it's ~$550 USD +s/h from the UK! Might be a viable option if the new bendix doesn't help?

Unfortunately I don't have the time, tools, skill, or especially the $$$ for a rebuild right now, so I'll definitely try a new bendix assembly first after confirming the starter shaft is true. I'll also be looking at the babbit bushing on the starter snout for damage too, now that I know about it!

Thanks again everyone! As always this forum is a wealth of knowledge!! I'll keep you posted on my progress.


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 pm

It is highly unlikely that the starter shaft is NOT bent after years of kick-backs, and unlikely that the babit nose is NOT worn out. A new bendix on a shot motor is only 1/2 a fix. Before trying to piecemeal things, test the shaft straightness and if straight, fit the new bendix to the starter and verify that it does not wobble or bind. If you meet all the criteria for health, you're safe to proceed.
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TopBanana
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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by TopBanana » Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:07 pm

Thank you for that. I'll definitely check the shaft straightness and inspect the babbit tomorrow before parts purchase. If either of those show issues, I'll get the entire assembly.

Thanks again!
Bill M


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by TopBanana » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:28 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 pm
It is highly unlikely that the starter shaft is NOT bent after years of kick-backs, and unlikely that the babit nose is NOT worn out. A new bendix on a shot motor is only 1/2 a fix. Before trying to piecemeal things, test the shaft straightness and if straight, fit the new bendix to the starter and verify that it does not wobble or bind. If you meet all the criteria for health, you're safe to proceed.
Well...you called it! The end of the starter shaft has almost .25" of wobble at the end. Bearing looks suspect too.

So the next question is...where's the best place to get one? I saw Ken Seiler came highly recommended on another post, and most of the normal places (Lang's, Chaffins, Bob's, Snyder's) seem to have them too.

Thoughts & recommendations?

Thanks!!


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:39 pm

TopBanana wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:28 pm
Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:36 pm
It is highly unlikely that the starter shaft is NOT bent after years of kick-backs, and unlikely that the babit nose is NOT worn out. A new bendix on a shot motor is only 1/2 a fix. Before trying to piecemeal things, test the shaft straightness and if straight, fit the new bendix to the starter and verify that it does not wobble or bind. If you meet all the criteria for health, you're safe to proceed.
Well...you called it! The end of the starter shaft has almost .25" of wobble at the end. Bearing looks suspect too.

So the next question is...where's the best place to get one? I saw Ken Seiler came highly recommended on another post, and most of the normal places (Lang's, Chaffins, Bob's, Snyder's) seem to have them too.

Thoughts & recommendations?

Thanks!!
The shaft can be straightened . The starter snout bearing can be replaced with a thin model A wrist pin bushing. It was babbit & will have to be removed via heat or reaming. If you are up for doing it yourself or have a handy friend.


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Re: Flywheel Ring Gear Issues

Post by Andy Loso » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:13 am

I do these all the time, just did one on Sunday. Contact me via the messaging here or at alosoatq.com if you are interested or just want to pick my brain; won't take long.

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