MTFCA Forum

So I made a quick trip to MA this last week and I always try to stop and say hello to John and Michael at J&M Machine. They were instrumental in the work that went into the transmission of my T. I can't say enough about not only the workmanship but all the checking up on me as well. They are always giving me advice and extremely helpful. Hard to find people out there that follow up after the sale.

Here are some pictures of some of the equipment used.

They also had a T engine in that had 1000 miles on a rebuild that someone did before it died. Car ran rich and gas was mixing with the oil.

You can see how bad the new drum got
Here is the head you can see where it was leaking.
See the crack on the flywheel. The pins were put in wrong.

I also went to Lang's As always they are very helpful and Steve got me straight on some more parts for Rattles.

Do they have parts? Yes endless shelves

Mopar_man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:29 am

They also had a T engine in that had 1000 miles on a rebuild that someone did before it died. Car ran rich and gas was mixing with the oil.

You can see how bad the new drum got

IMG_4961.jpeg

Here is the head you can see where it was leaking.

IMG_4964.jpeg

See the crack on the flywheel. The pins were put in wrong.

IMG_4962.jpeg

Not so sure about the wear cause. I did a re rebuild on a motor. The drums had a lot of wear. I assumed the trans was not done. Turned out they were new with less than 2000 miles on them. Ran with wood bands. During the rebuild process I discovered the drums were extremely soft. Never got the issue answered to my satisfaction. I dont know who made the drums, just that they were unmarked, new, CNC machined.

J&M Machine makes their own drums. I've got them in my car. They have new gears pressed on them as well not old gears pressed on a new drum.

Mopar_man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:37 pm

J&M Machine makes their own drums. I've got them in my car. They have new gears pressed on them as well not old gears pressed on a new drum.

The drums I saw had used gears. Do you happen to know the hardness condition of these new drums? How do they compare to Henery's?
Would like to know if I need to refer or run out of good original drums.

You are correct the drum shown has a used gear. The ones J&M Machine makes have new ones.

This is what they look like.

Another look.

How much does J & M Machine shop charge for a full rebuild on a model T motor. New, crank, pistons,rods, cam, new Babbitt, transmission.
I am going to be looking into a rebuild next summer.
Frank

Frank

I would surely think that J&M themselves would be able to give you very good specifics (within some range) on your inquiry. Why not give them a call and introduce yourself?

Yes Frank give them a call. Remember you get what you pay for. There was a post a little while back that someone said that a rebuild was too high until someone else added up all the parts. The problem with an engine that is 100 years old is that most parts are so damaged that although they may work they will have a problem eventually. So it's pay me now or pay me later. Another thing to consider is that it's hard to give an estimate without seeing the engine. I thought my transmission looked good until John got out the Magnaflux. then I saw all the cracks.

Another way to look at it is if they rebuild your engine you will never have to touch it again. Good luck with your T.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:42 pm

Mopar_man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:37 pm

J&M Machine makes their own drums. I've got them in my car. They have new gears pressed on them as well not old gears pressed on a new drum.

The drums I saw had used gears. Do you happen to know the hardness condition of these new drums? How do they compare to Henery's?
Would like to know if I need to refer or run out of good original drums.

The Drums you mention are also the same in picture that Mopar man took, fully machined.
We make our own drums and gears; with "Batch number J and M Machine Southborough MASS" cast in. Ours are made from class 20 Ductile iron. We don't have mentioned issue of drums being "Soft".
Herman Kohnke had used our drums in a Montana 500 car that he did engine on. They ran it out of oil for whatever reason. Though drums got really hot other than replacing bushings they were good as new and still turning today. There's a post with pictures of this in the forum somewhere.
Our drums are also in the cars at Dearborn Village driving visitors around daily.

Ours are better than Henry's drums as his were cast iron and not Ductile as ductile gives the metal ability to bend rather than crack like originals do/did. They're made to Ford's print right down to broaching of the brake drum lugs.

J and M Machine wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:46 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:42 pm

Mopar_man wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:37 pm

J&M Machine makes their own drums. I've got them in my car. They have new gears pressed on them as well not old gears pressed on a new drum.

The drums I saw had used gears. Do you happen to know the hardness condition of these new drums? How do they compare to Henery's?
Would like to know if I need to refer or run out of good original drums.

The Drums you mention are also the same in picture that Mopar man took, fully machined.
We make our own drums and gears; with "Batch number J and M Machine Southborough MASS" cast in. Ours are made from class 20 Ductile iron. We don't have mentioned issue of drums being "Soft".
Herman Kohnke had used our drums in a Montana 500 car that he did engine on. They ran it out of oil for whatever reason. Though drums got really hot other than replacing bushings they were good as new and still turning today. There's a post with pictures of this in the forum somewhere.
Our drums are also in the cars at Dearborn Village driving visitors around daily.

Ours are better than Henry's drums as his were cast iron and not Ductile as ductile gives the metal ability to bend rather than crack like originals do/did. They're made to Ford's print right down to broaching of the brake drum lugs.

Since your drums are identified, I know the ones I had to resurface were not yours. Run with wood bands less than 2000 miles, were all scored up.
Have you done a rockwell hardness test on yours VS original drums?
The drums I redid were very soft. Like the difference between 6061-t6 & t0. Did not cut well with cobalt, hi speed or carbide. Original drums cut very cleanly with that same carbide cutter. Ended up grinding to get a satisfactory finish. I could see that a softer, giving drum could dissipate heat & expand & contract without cracking. Is this a planned trade off? (A further fail safe with kevlar) I am concerned the softer material might wear sooner. I have not been back in the reground drums transmission yet to see for myself.
This a personal fact finding mission. Not judging your product. By all accounts your drums/product is top notch. Very respectfully submitted. Thank you.

A few lessons learned from my recent engine and transmission rebuilding experience.

Lesson learned #1; verbal estimates are worthless, regardless of 30 years of experience! Ask to see actual invoices for similar work done BEFORE you transport your engine and they tear it down or you may wind up paying $600 to "bake blast" the block&head and $200 to "wash parts" like I did.

Lesson learned #2; Avoid choosing a rebuilder who makes key parts needed for the rebuild. I found alternate parts from another vendor with outstanding reviews that would have saved me $750 but the engine Rebuilder/Part Manufacturer flat out refused to use the lower cost alternative parts from a competitor on MY engine rebuild.

Lesson learned #3; Consider a part time engine rebuilder. There are several very knowledgeable and very experienced Model T engine rebuilders who are reputable and do excellent work at substantially lower overhead and lower cost than a commercial engine requilder. The trade, of course, is time. About 3 times as long to complete the rebuild in my case. Plan your rebuild for the off season if possible and get in their queue as soon as you can.

Hope by sharing my engine/transmission rebuilding experience helps you avoid paying tuition to the school of hard knocks yourself.

Mike all good info to consider. Making decisions about what way to go in a build is always an issue. You have to accept some sort of risk in what you are doing. A good example is: I chose to not rebuild my crank and pistons. I know I could have a failure in the future but for now I'm accepting that risk. (Hope I'm right)

The thing I liked about J&M was they took my transmission apart right in front of me and found cracks in the drums that I could see when they showed me. They also found cracks in other parts. They were spot on with what they charged me and they also let me use parts from other venders. I liked the quality of their drums so that's what I went with. I think a lot of my issues came from a broken Triple Gear Pin. It broke in half and jammed everting else up.

The other thing I liked ( I mentioned before) was after I got all my parts back they never got tired on me asking questions as I put it all together. They even saw my posts and sent me e-mails helping with issues.

Hope you have trouble free miles with your T.

Robert, my initial engine rebuilder broke down my engine as I watched too which was a welcome surprise after driving it 4 hours to their shop. Little did I know that was standard procedure. The nasty surprise came later after the engine was completely disassembled and 4 hours away. A written estimate 30% higher than their, worse case, completely shot engine/transmission rebuild that needs ALL new parts verbal estimate with 30 years experience. See Lesson Learned #1. I'm so very pleased to learn this did not happen to you. Be thankful for the forum and ability for us to share our experiences with unscrupulous vendors to keep them fair and honest.

The forum has always been very helpful.

Speedytinc,
Thanks for your suggestions but it is not necessary for us to perform a hardness test on our drums as we know the iron is quality checked before leaving the foundry and we know the WEAKEST of ductile cast iron is as strong as the STRONGEST available gray cast iron which Henry didn’t even come close to using. Also, ductile cast iron usually has a yield strength of 40,000-90,000 PSI, but the yield strength of cast gray iron is so low that it cannot be measured. Moreover, ductile cast iron did not yet exist and was not yet invented during the Model T years. It was not in use until the 1940’s. The drums you referenced may have been soft for a couple of reasons, i.e., a cheap, low grade of gray cast iron and also possibly, MOST LIKELY,a casting flaw caused by the drums. being allowed to stay in the mold too long before being released. That time length is known as shakeout time. Time spent in the mold after the iron is poured is critical relative to the hardness.

John K: Here's a short, non technical article that answers some of you questions regarding material properties of grey cast vs nodular cast iron. jb
https://willmanind.com/what-ductile-iron/

jab35 wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:57 am

John K: Here's a short, non technical article that answers some of you questions regarding material properties of grey cast vs nodular cast iron. jb
https://willmanind.com/what-ductile-iron/

Thanks. Thats an education. The drum set I encountered were dead soft. Not close to the ductile performance description. My thinking was to compare rockwell hardness #'s for some frame of reference initially. Some sort of verifiable specs. Some day i'll get my hands on one of those ductile drums & do a quick file test for myself.