MTFCA Forum

Im looking. for some help in correctly identifying my first and recent Model T purchase. Heres what I know about it and maybe members can narrow down the year for me.

It was sold to me as a 1922.

1) Engine serial number is C369216 which puts it as about November 1922 production date so technically it should be a 1923 model. However I dont know if the engine is original or not.

2) Cast running board brackets not stamped

3) The rear tub is the 5 part style with the bead that follows the contour of the rear fender

4) Wooden dash although its a reproduction

5) Electric starter

6) Ignition switch is mounted on the coil box

7) Dashboard brackets mount on the side of the frame

8) The hood measurements are 25" from the radiator to the cowl, 12" high on the louvered portion

9) It has 30-1/2 demountable wheels all around

Thanks in advance
John Ernst
Edmonton, Canada

I could only post a couple of pics the others wouldnt upload

Pictures of the windshield and top should help? On Canadian cars, those changed about 1920. Canadian cars were ahead of USA cars with slanted windshields and one-man tops.

With our Canadian sourced cars it is generally believed that the forged running board supports were last seen on 1921 models. My 1922 low radiator wooded firewall car was sold new in 1922. Unfortunately, the previous owner put a rod through the side of the block, and a car which was known locally from new lost its original engine which was scrapped.
Allan from down under.

I found this number carved into the wood on the drivers side floor area. Is this a frame/body serial number. ? If so can anyone determine what it means ? Thanks
John

It is probably a body builder's serial number? I don't know enough about the Canadian body supplier companies. In the USA, most of the outside (not Ford owned companies) building bodies for the model T needed to put serial numbers on the bodies to identify and track the bodies for billing and warranty purposes. In the USA, many of those companies also date coded the serial number to help with tracking. In your case, I do not see a date code in there. Whether that is a Canadian difference? Maybe it wasn't necessary with the lower production than USA needed to track? I do not know.

On the USA cars, the body's serial number was strictly for billing and tracking purposes. The number had no real significance beyond that. Whether that would be the same for Canadian production or not, I don't know. But it is another interesting tidbit in the Canadian differences. I hope someone that knows the Canadian cars better than I can help with some clarification.

John,

If you are anyone else would like a free digital copy of "The Vintage Ford" article by Kevin Mowle titled "Only in Canada -- Eh?" send me your e-mail with the subject line "Send Canadian T article" or something similar and I'll send it your way. A good description of two 1921 Canadian Ts -- one a touring and the other a roadster. Our club allows us to share that to help promote our hobby and our club.

Most Model Ts have been modified over their lifetime. From the factory the Canadian T (also USA Ts) would not have come with a starter & generator and also an ignition switch on the coil box. The non-starter cars came with the ignition switch on the coil box. So either the coil box is a replacement or the starter was added after the car left the factory. (Note adding a starter to a 1920s Ford was a bolt on job. The ring gear was already on the flywheel, and the owner or dealer only needed to remove the blank off plates, purchase a standard starter, generator, wiring and switch and it could be added.

What is the width of your dash / cowl? From the photos you posted I cannot tell what size cowl you have. Below are the measurements on the metal firewalls -- but the 1917-1923 wood firewalls were the same and the 1924-25 should have been metal but someone may have replaced the metal firewall with a wooden one. Probably not -- but for dating the car -- that was a major change.
If you look at the top of the transmission cover -- it will often have a data code for when it was cast.

Reference the body number -- are there any other numbers or letters near that area? Is that the right front floor board area?

Does the car have a straight windshield or a slanted windshield? See photo below of 1920-23 low cowl Canadian slant windshield touring:
Does the car have a one man top (the bows only attach to the car at the rear seat pivot and the front windshield? See photo above of the 1920-23 Canadian one man top. (Photo originally posted by Jay -- thank you Jay!)

Or does it have the earlier style two man top that has additional bows attached to the front seat body irons? (I believe this is around a 1917 - 1919 (I don't think the tires are demountable -- but if they are then 1919). But the top (and top saddle clamps were used in 1919 and probably earlier). It also shows the straight windshield. (Photo originally posted by David Greenlees -- Thank you David!) See photo below:
Good luck with your new car!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Thanks for your help Hap. I believe my T is cobbled together from a few years and many parts have been replaced with reproductions so Im trying to nail down exactly what year I should call it.
The windshield I was given is a square 2 piece windshield. The bottom larger one has a handle in the middle so I assume it pushes out. The top one may swivel out as well as it had nickel plated T-knobs on it. They dont fit the aftermarket stanchions I have as there is about a 2 inch gap between the top and bottom pieces. Also, Im not sure if the square windshield or the rounded, fold-down style is the right one for my T. Ill sort it out.

Thanks for the pics on the difference between the 1 and 2-man tops. My car only came with a rusty set of roof irons and a few rotten bows so i wasnt sure which top it was. Thanks to the pics I now understand the difference between the 2 and mine is definitely a 1 man top so that helps greatly.

I will measure the firewall (dash) when i have a chance also. That is a reproduction wood replacement on mine.

John

If your car has the coil box with the ignition switch built in that indicates that either the car was a non starter car or when the car was put together the guy used that type of set up because that’s all he had.
A starter car has an instrument panel with the amp meter and ignition switch combo in it mounted on the instrument panel. That was a change in late 1919.
I think that because of the sort of mixed up parts whatever is on the title use that year for your car.
There are more than a few that have been built up with available parts that are Model T parts and will fit but not quite right for year identification.
If it runs and drives good and has a clear title I would enjoy it as it is. You can change the parts for the right ones that are the majority later on as you go if you wish. My opinion of course.

Look for 3 circles about the size of a nickel, on on top of the transmission, one near the rear of the head and one on the block.

A 1922 will have a 22 there, the other two numbers are month and day of manufacture.

Then the system changed to an A is 23, B is 24, C is 25, and D is 26.

I have photo examples, but never learned how to post photos here.

My dash is 24-3/8 wide. Therefore Im guessing its a 1921-22.Also Ive forgotten what year did the Canadian manufacturing change the Touring from the 5 panel rear tub to the 3 panel ?

John

There is a related conversation on a Classifieds thread. Since those time out and disappear after awhile, I thought perhaps this much of it should be copy and pasted here where they can remain and be considered for further discussion.
I am still trying to learn more about our model Ts, and Canadian model Ts in particular. Personally, I have always found the Canadian and world export model Ts to be fascinating! The differences, the similarities, and how they were accepted around the world has always been interesting. I would hope people that know more about them than I do can fill in some details.

The following couple 'copy and pastes' were in part my responses to questions about the top and windshield needed for this car.


CANADIAN 1920s model T's top and windshield is quite different than the USA model Ts!
The Canadian slanted windshield began in 1920 (USA in 1923). And Canadian windshields both upper and lower glass frame were hinged.
The Canadian one-man top also began in 1920, whereas the USA top remained two-man through 1922. The rear windows (lights is actually the proper term) were different on Canadian open cars. The rear lights is one of the first things to notice when spotting Canadian cars in old photos. HOWEVER, just to make it confusing, there were after-market rear lights sold in the USA that look very similar to the Canadian lights. So once the different top is spotted, then driver's door or side driven from and windshield need to be looked at to confirm a car in a photo as Canadian.



John E asked
"Out of curiosity what made the Canadian rear lights different from American?"

Pure speculation, however, not originally my speculation. I don't recall who surmised that it may simply have been that Canadian production (relative to USA production numbers!) was low enough that the few dollars to be saved by using cheaper lights (basically just stitching isinglass into place) would make enough difference in the earnings to really matter.
I would speculate further, that since a large percentage of Ford Canada's production was exported around the world, and the export/import shipping costs added so much to the final cost, that there was less need to keep the production costs as low as possible. Several relatively minor details that are different on Canadian Ts cost somewhat more than their USA cousins. The lower production numbers in Canada also allowed some other USA changes to be delayed there for several years. As an example, the Canadian cars had ribbed pedals for about a decade after the USA replaced them with smooth pedals. USA high production required replacement of the molds and patterns sooner than Canada's lower production. The few cents savings was worth it to make the change in the USA production, while Canadian production just continued using the earlier (and only slightly more costly) design.
Canadian Ts also used the fancy top saddles like those used by many automobile producers other than Ford in the USA.

I enjoy reading about the Canadian and export model Ts from around the world! Just more model T to love!